Looking for some alternative energy info and expertise , Particulary HHO Hydrogen

I have decided to start up this little thread as i have an idea i wish to share and get any available guidancy.

What i was thinking of creating was a Garden / Patio Heater .

Not running on your average calor gas / propane etc.....

But better.... A HHO Generator.

I have many ideas / inventions and i just dont want the money , i want to give each of us a better way of life.

END OF.

How about a patio heater... that uses a motorcycle, car or marine battery (12v) (either 10 to 50 AH?? ..as required)

The battery powers the HHO generator.... develop a cell that is suitable... testing required depending on how much

hydrogen you need to produce. (eg 5 stainless steel plates / 10 plates / 25 plates / whatever is required basically depending on the size of the heat production that is needed)

I am not very familiar with all these technologies but i am sure we can piece it together!! ''

Basically there will be a regulator which regulates the HHO that is emited into the patio heater burner module.

Just as a normal propane heater would work.

The only catch is ... picture the patio heater with the umbrella like top .

Now this area will be covered in a large solar panel that constantly trickle charges the battery which in turn produces the Hydrogen from the water based solutution.

I have much more detailed info on my primary blueprint but thought i would toss the ball in the park and see the response from my buddies on ATS.

This is my first HHO project , I am a complete Newby but have done some nice research!!

Many more free openly-publicised projects to come. ''

I want a world of happiness..... Not a world of rich and poor or healthy and dying .

We need to all come together for the sake of each other and our fellow humans yet to be born!!

I hope you enjoy reading this and any questions and pointers are greatly appreciated.

Peace Y'all

HHO = hoax

the correct equation is 2h2o = 2h2 + 02

the fase equation is : h2o = hho

no hho avocate has produced a gass sample that assayses as HHO

WHY ?

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Thanks for your input.
Its Appreciated
As i said i am only testing the water for possibilities.

I've thought of similar heaters like you suggesting. I don't see why it couldn't be done. Hydrogen and oxygen burning is harmless in the air so this could easily be used inside as well.

You could use a solar panel to keep your battery charged during the day time.

I'm guessing all you need to do is make a Hydrogen Torch like I've seen on youtube. A lot of them were using bicycle pump needles so the Hydrogen is forced out a small orifice with enough pressure so it won't back feed. You need to have a bubbler inline just in case the fire back feeds through your line. The bubbler will catch it before your Hydrogen generator does. It is also a good idea to use bronze wool (doesn't rust) and put it in the line as a back feed preventer.

Hydrogen is extremely hot burning gas so you most likely wouldn't have to use the device as long as conventional heaters. I think it's a great idea and a lot safer than a convection heater because you are including the oxygen along side the hydrogen so I don't see the gas burning all of the oxygen up in the room like convection heaters are known to do.

Couldn't get the video to embed.
Hydrogen Torch

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Are you telling me the gas produced by HHO generators will not be flammable ??

This is my desired effect .... not pure hydrogen .... just a flammable gas which is renewable using solar power.

reply to post by TheLieWeLive


Thanks for the assisstance.

The thread has been active for over 25mins and you are the only with a reply.

Except..... " HHO = HOAX "

Not very helpful , a little more detail to back this statement up would be better.

I know that in a car you get minimal positive results..... I am not talking about a car engine...

...Just a plain old patio heater

Originally posted by the2010apprentice
reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

Are you telling me the gas produced by HHO generators will not be flammable ??

This is my desired effect .... not pure hydrogen .... just a flammable gas which is renewable using solar power.

I don't know about all the abbreviations that are used but a Hydrogen generator does work. When you first get it operating you may have to let it run for a few minutes before the gas becomes flammable. I think it needs this time to push any air out of the line and for the mixture to be pure. I just know every time I use mine I have to let it run for 30 seconds or more before the hydrogen/oxygen becomes really flammable.

Originally posted by the2010apprentice
reply to post by TheLieWeLive

 

Thanks for the assisstance.

The thread has been active for over 25mins and you are the only with a reply.

Except..... " HHO = HOAX "

Not very helpful , a little more detail to back this statement up would be better.

I know that in a car you get minimal positive results..... I am not talking about a car engine...

...Just a plain old patio heater

Don't let anyone tell you any different. What you are looking to do can be done. The problem with a car is you still need gasoline mixed in with the Hydrogen and you have to fool the computer on any newer cars or the car will run inefficient due to the car compensating for the extra fuel. It can't run on pure Hydrogen unless you want to burn the rings up in your engine due to the heat.

A heater is the way to go. It will also be a blue flame heater like propane just a lot more cleaner burning.

I was of the understanding, and I haven't done the math myself personally, but I was of the understanding that the energy needed to extract hydrogen from H20 is greater than the energy released upon the combustion the hydrogen extracted.

OP,

There is no publicly known method to disassociate water into a hydrogen and oxygen mix with 100% efficiency. There is also no publicly known way to use 100% of the heat that comes from burning hydrogen and oxygen. It is also said that the energy released from burning a hydrogen and oxygen mix is the same amount of energy required to create the hydrogen and oxygen mix (if done 100% efficiently).

What that means is, no matter what you do, unless you build a 100% efficient device (impossible), and use 100% of the heat you produce (impossible), then you are going to loose energy.

So, if you did this:

electricity -> HHO -> heater

You are going to loose energy.

It's best to just use the electricity you started with to make a heater.

electricity -> heater

The electric heater would be more powerful than a hydrogen one if you used the same amount of electricity on both.

I am NOT saying it is impossible to do. You can easily use electricity to disassociate water into hydrogen and oxygen and then burn the hydrogen and oxygen for heat, however, the electricity you use would be more powerful than the energy released from burning the hydrogen and oxygen mix. So you might as well just use electricity only.


reply to post by ignorant_ape


Are you trying to claim that oxyhydrogen is a hoax?

Are you claiming that electrolysis of water doesn't create hydrogen and oxygen?

Originally posted by againuntodust
I was of the understanding, and I haven't done the math myself personally, but I was of the understanding that the energy needed to extract hydrogen from H20 is greater than the energy released upon the combustion the hydrogen extracted.

You are correct. Cycling electrical power through a hydrogeneration step will lose 30-40% due to IR drop and entropy terms. Any cycle that includes making electricity to make hydrogen to make heat or electricity is flawed.

The 3 laws of thermodynamics [explained for all] are:
1. You can't get something for nothing.
2. The best you can do is to break even.
3. You can't even break even.

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy


You are 100% right. Until a method to break water down into hydrogen and oxygen that uses less input energy than burning the hydrogen and oxygen gives back it will continue to have only special purpose uses.

There have been some advances in catalytic and bio reactive generators but they still are far too inefficient to replace conventional fuel yet.

I am aware that you dont get something for nothing.

The primal point i am wanting to make is that the sun is free energy minus solar panel setup charges.

The battery will constantly be getting charged to keep it at a fully charged level.

I understand more energy is required for the input.

If the battery can be used for 3 hours for example and takes 48 hours to charge .... i still see this as positive.

The sun is free , always there and even daylight will charge the battery (not just direct sun)

Say for example , a 10AH 12 v motorcycle battery , would this provide enough ooomph to get the hydrogen generated for say 2 , 3 , 10 hours.

How long with a 50 or 100w solar panel take to recharge a full battery (12v 10AH) from empty ?

How long will this 10AH battery last while generating HHO using say a 10 plate generator? or more / less plates?

Basic questions , maybe even stupid .... i just want to understand.

I will be testing but want to get some ground rules... you are all a great help !!

Best regards

reply to post by the2010apprentice


If you have the electrical power, you will get more heat with a battery powered heater.

HHO is a HoHo. It is molecular hydrogen and oxygen, H2 and O2.

Originally posted by the2010apprentice
reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

Are you telling me the gas produced by HHO generators will not be flammable ??

This is my desired effect .... not pure hydrogen .... just a flammable gas which is renewable using solar power.

No, he is saying that hydrolysis causes something else to be formed ie:

Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− → H2(g) + 2 OH-(aq)
Anode (oxidation): 4 OH- (aq) → O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e-
Overall reaction: 2 H2O(l) → 2 H2(g) + O2(g)1



. HHO can not really exist. It has existed for millisesoconds (or less) in optimal lab conditions, but quickly changed into something else because of how unstable actually "HHO" is, which is really nothing, because it doesn't exist in that form. The advocates claim something that it is not (They are trying to say it is H, H, O... In it's atomic form....

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
OP,


reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

Are you trying to claim that oxyhydrogen is a hoax?

Are you claiming that electrolysis of water doesn't create hydrogen and oxygen?

edit on 8-5-2011 by gift0fpr0phecy because: (no reason given)

No actually, he was advocating what oxyhydrogen really is:

Oxyhydrogen is a mixture of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2) gases, typically in a 2:1 molar ratio, the same proportion as water.

As opposed to "HHO", which would be something different all together.

Oxyhydrogen is sometimes referred as "Brown's Gas" after Yull Brown who advocated such devices, or "HHO gas" after the claims of fringe physicist Ruggero Santilli. It is also claimed that it can be used in torches for welding and cutting at extreme temperatures. Oxyhydrogen is also often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to operate a vehicle using water as a fuel. The most common and decisive counter-argument against producing this gas on-board to use as a fuel or fuel additive is that the energy required to split water molecules exceeds the energy recouped by burning it. [12] This should also not be confused with hydrogen-fueled cars where the hydrogen is produced elsewhere and used as fuel.

1

reply to post by boncho


So you are only arguing semantics?

"HHO" is just a nickname, not and official name, for oxyhydrogen... and oxyhydrogen is not a hoax.



Oh wow I just noticed the typos in my last post and I can't edit it... loose = lose

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
reply to post by boncho

 

So you are only arguing semantics?

"HHO" is just a nickname, not and official name, for oxyhydrogen... and oxyhydrogen is not a hoax.

 

Oh wow I just noticed the typos in my last post and I can't edit it... loose = lose

edit on 9-5-2011 by gift0fpr0phecy because: (no reason given)

Semantics is the difference between science and pseudoscience

reply to post by the2010apprentice


hi 2010 apprentice, thanks for the thread topic...

i have also had an interest in HHO/browns gas etc for ages,
but not really been able to experiment, just research...

and it is disappointing how many "experts" just quote thermodynamic "laws",
and write off this potential without discussion...

anyway, from what i have learned,
one of the first problems experimenters confront is "containment", eg seals, valves etc...
eg: hydrogen is so small + light it is hard to stop it escaping...(+ exploding where it isnt meant to!)

so if U plan to use it directly from source U mite be able to bypass that problem...

one thing i would love to see stats for is this...
what is the exact way U measure how much energy it takes to seperate the water molecule to just O2 +H...
AND also the energy produced... does anyone have the info for how much energy U get from burning Hydrogen??? how do U measure stuff like that, PLEASE... ?

thanks

+seeya

reply to post by the2010apprentice


Cant imagine a patio heater model as you suggest but i will give you some details of a device i have seen in person and that works well. I recently travelled 15,000kms in an old bedford bus fitted with I assume HHO generator built on the famous "Joe cell" design. we picked up the bus from a state capital city some 1000kms away, diesel fuel in a hino motor that used a 450l tank. On the return journey to the fitting shop we averaged 90-100kmph and 500 or so kms per tank in highway conditions, not too shabby for an old bus.
We modified the bus adding an extra alternator dedicated to the cell, i believe it was a 50amp device, we had a small cell fitted, smaller than nessesary to run the bus completely without fuel but it did achieve some impressive results. The device had a secondary tube of water feeding into it that was attached in the cabin in plain view so we could check water levels. several of us were very sceptical and concerned the explosive gases produced would ignite so this non-standard secondary tank was a safety device to ensure the cell would never run dry and thus expose the electric cables to the gas and explode. for similar reasons a vacuum pump was attached to the output gas tube to seal the gases in the feeder tube once the bus had stopped and a relay to start gas production after a few minutes once the bus was started on its normal fuel.

Once fitted the bus ran extremely well with no change in engine temperature, a very noticeable dose of top end power, not so much difference at low speeds but once you hit 80kmph it was like a surge of power that took us to 120kmph easily. the driver estimated it at about 30% more top end power, just an opinion but as passengers we noticed the acceleration compared to the pre-fitted bus easily..

we ran this on long long highway conditions in all weathers except snow (outback australia lol not a lot of snow)
we were averaging 1050 kms per tank a substantial saving for the extended trip of over a month.
the visible tube showing the water used showed that over the trip we used about a liter of water. Simple observation and basic science tells me we were making some form of gas i assume HHO.

For your patio heater i think you might underestimate the amps required to produce the gas if you use it in an instant on form, and storage solutions if you trickle feed batteries and make gas continuously. This stuff IS highly explosive and i wouldnt want a low pressure container of it near my house.
just my 2c. good luck. theres plenty of info on the joe cell and its various designs.