Do you really want to achieve enlightenment?

There really is no 'enlightenment', only different states of spiritual growth and understanding.

If you reached a level of spiritual growth that is similar in some ways to what many of you may refer to as 'enlightenment', you would realize that there is much much more than that.

It's funny though how some people think that once someone reaches a so-called 'enlightened' state, that means they are somehow above all human problems and human behavior. Guess what, people in this so-called enlightened state do not all act like saints with zero ego. They can for example, swear & curse when talking, show human emotions (e.g. get angry, be sad, laugh, react to critisism, criticize you, etc.), go to school, get or lose a job, win the lottery, join the army, go bankrupt, dress neat and clean or messy & dirty looking, eat, sleep, have sex, get married, get divorced, have children, smoke, drink alcohol, be a janitor, be in a biker gang, become mayor of a city, have dandruff, bad breath, burp, fart, die, and oh ya, they go to the bathroom too.

In short, they can display nearly any of the common human traits/behaviors or so-called failings or losses of the human condition. Why some people think that just because you reach a certain level of spiritual development you are no longer human or display human characteristics puzzles me.

Your human as long as you inhabit the body your walking around in. So-called enlightenment doesn't make you somehow less human, only more aware and awake to true reality.

Now if your talking about a being who isn't human, then that's another story.

Many in this thread are enlightened, splitlevel,rwfresh,etc, but no one
is Enlightened fully and perfectly. No one can explain that.
All it takes to reach the first level,is to fall into that state of grace.
Zen may amuse some people but fails to explain what is, instead
it tries to explain what isnt. Each to his own way.
Zen preaches emptiness,and no mind as a method.
Where there is a method there is a lack of Understanding.
Thus Zen seekers are satisfied with contentment or peace.
Fullness and Bliss elude them for they are not found by seeking.

The Ego is the activity of separation. As soon as there is separation
there is the search for union. Seeking is emptiness and suffering.
Enlightenment is No Seeking.
Radical Understanding is the intuitive knowing that you
are always seeking and the spontaneous abandonment of that
seeking, thus resting in the Prior Fullness/Bliss of Reality.

There are no puzzles,koans,parables that are necessary.
Knowledge>Self Observation>Understanding>Grace or Bliss/Fullness.

DA

reply to post by RRokkyy


Fullness or Emptiness - ego or no ego - full enlightenment - partial enlightenment perfect/imperfect - all these are just ideas. Can you partly get a joke? Awakening is like a joke because you realise how stupid you have been to not see what is staring you in the face then you know that 'enlightenment' is also just an idea. You either notice or you don't - no partial or full enlightenment, no perfect/imperfect these are just human concepts like good and bad. Without people how can good or bad exist, how can perfect or imperfect be?

Once you notice, however, then your practice begins and here is the beauty of Zen teachings as they help you to express and mature what you know through your actions and speech. To awaken is to notice the presence of what is holy everywhere you look. Therefore distinctions have no meaning to you and the longer you practise the less distracted you are by the world around you - the peace and serenity you once felt while meditating or walking through forests etc is now felt while strolling through cities and highways. When all is 'IT' there is no need to go somewhere to discover. When all is IT there is no need to meditate - all day is meditation, every action is mindfully aware of what is sacred.

People's anger, bad behaviour, ego is not 'outside' enlightenment it is only a response to not noticing - there are no failings or losses. Someone who is awake gradually becomes less bothered by things, less angry, less egotistical and have fewer desires. Awakening is Prozac for the mind - all is a flat-line because your peace is no longer reliant upon the world around you and no longer distracted by it - as Zen Buddhists say - the great settling of the mind.

Finally, 'Enlightenment is no seeking' - once enlightened you realise there is nothing to seek - all that there is, is before you but you have to be awake to know this. Why search when wherever you look it is? But if you cannot see it, if you cannot awaken to its presence and to the miracles that follow you will of course continue to seek.

:O)

reply to post by LittleDeer


Thank you Little Deer,
i have just read your two posts. I saw it in the clouds, i wasn't looking for it. I had never even heard the word enlightenment when it happened. I know that there are many, many seekers of enlightenment and they think if they practice enough it will happen. Did it happen to you ( i am aware that i doesn't happen to someone, that in fact the someone, vanishes) or did you hear about it and seek it out?
I sought 'enlightened beings' after the occurance because i didn't know what had happened to me. It took a very long time because the awakening happened about 14 years before I found the fomula. Have you heard of Peter Brown? When it happened to him, he tried to communicate to people and ended up in a mental intitution!
I will post you this link where he tells his story, it is very interesting.
youtu.be...
And this one is very good.
youtu.be...

Namaste.

Edit. I see you have just joined. I would just like to say a very warm welcome to you, i have been a member on here for a while now and i have been looking for 'enlightened beings',

Thank you very much! I have not heard of Peter Brown but will check the you tube videos in the morning when I have more time to relax and view them properly.

I saw it in the sky too - small world! I had been sure of its presence within me for a few weeks after noticing a different 'feel' suddenly whilst out in the garden then I happened to look through the window as I was getting out of bed and just saw it and suddenly knew - although after that I was stuck not knowing how compassion could arise or how change occurred if all is IT - however I've worked that out thankfully and look forward to deepening my practise further.

14-years ago heck - it happened to me 2 years ago and as I ran a Buddhist Sangha I wanted to help people to do the same - which was a little awkward as I didn't want to tell them what I had experienced. I found it hard to steer people's thinking in the right direction (if needed) without any authority but I let go of all of that last year as I realised I was too caught up on helping people - now I keep my mouth shut and let it speak for itself - whether people notice or not doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LittleDeer

 

Thank you Little Deer,
i have just read your two posts. I saw it in the clouds, i wasn't looking for it. I had never even heard the word enlightenment when it happened. I know that there are many, many seekers of enlightenment and they think if they practice enough it will happen. Did it happen to you ( i am aware that i doesn't happen to someone, that in fact the someone, vanishes) or did you hear about it and seek it out?
I sought 'enlightened beings' after the occurance because i didn't know what had happened to me. It took a very long time because the awakening happened about 14 years before I found the fomula. Have you heard of Peter Brown? When it happened to him, he tried to communicate to people and ended up in a mental intitution!
I will post you this link where he tells his story, it is very interesting.
youtu.be...
And this one is very good.
youtu.be...

Namaste.

Edit. I see you have just joined. I would just like to say a very warm welcome to you, i have been a member on here for a while now and i have been looking for 'enlightened beings',

edit on 8-6-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by LittleDeer


Finally, 'Enlightenment is no seeking' - once enlightened you realise there is nothing to seek - all that there is, is before you but you have to be awake to know this. Why search when wherever you look it is? But if you cannot see it, if you cannot awaken to its presence and to the miracles that follow you will of course continue to seek.

:O)

The Great Wisdom of Adi Da is to start with the Radical
Understanding of No Seeking.

Full Enlightenment Transfigures the Being.
Adi Da says, no one survives that moment
to speak glibly about it. When others are
in the presence of someone in that state
they are profoundly moved. The idea
that Enlightened Beings appear as ordinary
people is held by those who have never
met one or are too dense to appreciate them.

The Great Wisdom of Adi Da is to start with the Radical
Understanding of No Seeking.

Full Enlightenment Transfigures the Being.
Adi Da says, no one survives that moment
to speak glibly about it. When others are
in the presence of someone in that state
they are profoundly moved. The idea
that Enlightened Beings appear as ordinary
people is held by those who have never
met one or are too dense to appreciate them.


Agree with the no-seeking bit whoever Adi Da is/was is wrong in my humble opinion. Such a verse harbours duality that enlightened beings are somewhat special. They may appear different in as much as their stillness and silence means they are in line with the natural order which in itself will attract certain people to them, their focus will seem different as their view is on all things so they may seem strange and they are not interested in pointless chat or some things over others. They will appear greatly settled and their actions and compassion will be spontaneous in the moment. If you expect them to glow, perhaps this is because in knowing 'God' (or whatever you want to call it) they also radiate that presence.

The last few lines of the above verse hint at the problem - 'people are too dense to appeciate' - actually no they are not. Perhaps they are too busy to stop and notice however awakening and recognising this 'presence' whether in yourself, in another or an enlightened person has nothing to do with your levels of intelligence - hence Jesus's comment about it is easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle etc....

An enlightened person is the same as when not enlightened. It is possible to have this experience and continue as you were before - or you can deepen your practice - be mindful of the presence of the holy in your every moment and listen to the wisdom that comes from deep within you and is in everyone. To say people are 'too dense' is very poor indeed.

Others will disagree but hey that's okay too. I'm not here to push my view just to say what I have found to be 'true' myself - doesn't make it right.

As a child i have been blessed with a deep knowing and understanding of things and knowledge, that was well not ahead of but very clear and i have since i was young researched the philosophies about life, as well as always taking the time to put myself in others shoes as if i were them , doing so gave me a wonderful understanding of people and most importantly myself. But on to the point, in my recent years i have increased my intake of loving words of wisdom as well as experiencing oneness,. I like so many others wanted to strip all this knowledge of all the unnessentials so i may more clearly see what i was aiming at,.I started to really have the desire to go back to were i came to feel what ive felt my whole life but, without the illusions.And it happened, skipping the details I was driving home with my girl, and i started to feel extremly depressed, I saw all of the hypocrisy in myself as well as others, all of it was true , i had to stop driving because i was even starting to close my eyes and stop breathing, i was dying from utter ego destuction, we made it home , i took off my clothes and laid spraweld out on the bed. she left me alone in the room with the t.v. on. my vision started to blur slightly as i looked at the t.v., i started seeing the people on the sreen as they saw themselves, some horrible, deathly looking others looked very young and happy even though they were old,. then it happend i gave my self up to the one, no longer was i anyone nothing you could identify me by, it was like the drop of water returning to the ocean, i was everthing , myself and nothing all at once, the feeliing was pure love bliss nervana, nothing was lacking yet i possesed nothing.i cannot fully explain how i saw things because it wasnt like looking at things like a tree from one view point it was seeing in every possible way u can think of yet it was non in paticular. in there was everyone all of you, even what people call deamons and angles, evryone. though i was aware of everyone and saw them i chose a couple to actually focus on on not really choose i just did,. one was a deamon i knew it immideatly,yet it was not a deamon in there it hardly even new it was there, there was no words exchanged, what could be?i was him he was me we were all.we knew eachother exactly.no fear or hate in there just love in all its ways.I do not know how long it was time was non existant ,it was a possibility but it was not focused on anymore than all else was.i only had two thoughts in there that i made a effort to ask, i asked why i wasnt being spoken too someone revealing secrets to me , and it was instantly answered by myself the two thoughts happened at the same time. I needed no explaination, my whole life i have been explaining aspects of the one and i always knew that i knew all of it. i was there because i wanted to be because i was already there as you all are,i was just allowing myself to experience it fully and be aware that i was.again it was everything good you ever felt times infinity and it wasnt too much or overwhelming ,yet it was but it was a good thing. Oh and to clearify i did not get bored or stagnet, just because i knew everthing was everthing and could do everything. No iwas so far from it! yet i really didnt do anything i knew i could but it was sooo good that feeling was all the doing i needed,this went on for infinity it is still going on it never was not going on, then i came (back) i laid ther for awhile bathing still in the warm womb of love i had my body and i rose to my feet crying tears of pure joy with a huge smile on my face.there is more but afterward i asked myself why i came (back) and again i knew the answere as fast as i knew the question, i went nowhere i am in the one allways have been,and that feels great, iknow if i desire too i can see things from that perspectiv again , i know that here all the possibilties and the ability to do them are possible if i want, i can fly , heal, do anything, yet just like (there) i dont want too really i just want to bath in the love of you all. you too will see it you will know it all you already do , but if you are like me which i know you are you desire to give it all up for the one,cause you know you are giving nothing up, and you may like me be (here) again not nessesarly (here) but you will return to a nother view, for non of it matters and yet it all matters ,just like you know the sum of all your knowledge can be said with one word or thought or action, yet you delight in the details as well, you delight in it all.so be in a hurry to get (there) but take as long as you like , your there already, your here and you are inbetween it is all the same but different.I love you all, this is my first post on here,from these fingures but i have read all of yours everyones and they too are my posts as much as they arnt.

reply to post by likewater


Hey Likewater - what a lovely description - thanks for sharing. It felt like it came from the depths of your heart.

I rather be awakened then live in an illusion. It is all about the self and not others. You get awaken. it's all about you and not others, not your family, not your kids or whatever. Buddism is the key for self awakening. I don't think you awaken or whatever because if you were, you wouldn't be writing anything on here.

reply to post by splitlevel

Hey sorry if this has already been mentioned but I’m too sleepy to read over 12 pages.

But just from the threads I have read there seem to be a lot of people here trying everything under the sun in order to attain some sort of spiritual superiority. This in itself is a reflection of ego, which in turn separates us from the source/truth/God anyway. Many people seem to be so focussed on becoming one with the universe that they forget to enjoy the feeling of being separate from it aka being human.

Now look, obviously it far better to be obsessed with finding enlightenment than say being obsessed with shopping, or food, or cats or making the $$$. And I do realise that majority of humanity still operates on a very baseline, reactionary level of thinking not too far removed from that of any other animal, hence the poor state of the world today.

But one cannot enjoy looking up at a beautiful starry night if you are the stars. You cannot enjoy snuggling up to your lady (or fella) in front of the fire with a glass of red if you are the red, the lady and the fire all at once. I think many people almost feel guilty, or at the very least inadequate because they have not trained themselves to see auras, or they gave up their Sivanada Yoga classes because they rather have a quiet night in and read.

Many forget (or do not know) the reason we exist as separate being in the first place is (in my own humble opinion) is to experience life as a separate being. The meaning of life is not to become enlightened, or to become one with our higher selves. This I believe is a natural progression of living many lifetimes across the ages. The meaning of life is merely to experience it. To be the chick behind the counter at Walmart, to be the buisness executive, to be the hermit in the tiny hut in the woods, to have it all, to have nothing, to be happy, sad, lustful, greedy. For eventually we will all get to that place, and when we do what do you think will happen....? It will all start again.....

Following your true calling isn’t meant to be a struggle. The path you are meant to take in life is the easiest path, and by that I mean the one that comes most naturally to you. Enlightenment should never be an effort or hard work. Everything you do takes you closer to the source whether you actively seek it or not. We are all travelling down the same river; and I’d much rather enjoy the journey on a slow boat with a fishing rod and a beer. My only peeve is the fact that in my next life I will forget how cool my last one was.

The world is changing so fast, and I personally think things will only get better. I consider myself very fortunate to live during this time period where global consciousness has slowly begun en masse to slowly shift.

The reason all of us currently live the lives we live is because we are meant to live the lives we live. Obviously trying to better oneself and the world we live in is a good thing, and I’m not trying to discourage anyone from that.

But we must not forget to stop and smell the roses...

I agree that enlightenment is not about supernatural things. these two videos and especially the second one are very profound and beautiful.
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...
I want the second video at my funeral. No preacher, no speeches about what a great guy I was, only the video.

The whole idea of the thread was this. "Truth Seekers" are destined to dig and dig endlessly. This is what they do, so giving them a quick answer, even if the answer happens to be true, will not satisfy them. This is the reason behind zen riddles. people who seek some higher meaning to life, look at a zen riddle and try to figure out how to crack its meaning. When a person is lucky enough to get enlightened, they suddenly get the joke of these Zen koans, like the one hand clapping...because there is no hand. That's the joke. However if I tell someone the answer is that there is no hand, it won't satisfy them. So they can puzzle forever more over the meaning. And its this innate thing in people to question their own existence that can drive people nuts. The other thing about enlightenment is that yes it does hit you all of a sudden, and some simple answer like "there is no hand" suddenly feels absolute, without question you know it is the only answer. So you cant make someone feel this enlightenment by telling them the answer is "no hand" it wont make them feel anything other than contempt that someone would give such a lame answer, but if they come to find an answer to a zen koan by themselves, then they will suddenly know its the only answer and thus feel enlightenment.

Originally posted by splitlevel
The whole idea of the thread was this. "Truth Seekers" are destined to dig and dig endlessly.

I agree with you. It seems like people are just trying too hard. Why do we have to "look" for enlightenment? It is already there - in the sky, in the sun, in the plants, in the animals, in ourselves.

I do not want to achieve enlightenment. Because if I did, there would be nothing left to learn, no wonder, no imagination, no excitement, no love, no amazement. I cherish these things because they make me feel alive.

Honestly, when I read a post about "the path to enlightenment", I get an overwhelming feeling that everything I am reading is a lie... that it is completely wrong and not what is right for me.

For me, nature is the answer. I will dig in my garden, plant my seeds, and see results one way or another. It is not endless for me, it is cyclic and I am a part of that cycle.

reply to post by ottobot


"I do not want to achieve enlightenment. Because if I did, there would be nothing left to learn, no wonder, no imagination, no excitement, no love, no amazement. I cherish these things because they make me feel alive."

You only say this because you only have ideas, concepts, about enlightenment. Enlightenment cannot be 'acheived', however when it is realized - love, amazement and wonder is the experience. The only 'thing' you lose is fear.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ottobot

 

"I do not want to achieve enlightenment. Because if I did, there would be nothing left to learn, no wonder, no imagination, no excitement, no love, no amazement. I cherish these things because they make me feel alive."

You only say this because you only have ideas, concepts, about enlightenment. Enlightenment cannot be 'acheived', however when it is realized - love, amazement and wonder is the experience. The only 'thing' you lose is fear.

You misunderstand. The way I see it, I have already "achieved enlightenment"... though, there was nothing to be achieved.

I agree, this mystical concept of "Enlightenment" that people are always talking about "finding" is all fancy and, probably, a product of fear of the unknown or fear of aloneness or fear of quiet.

I have no fear.

I do not believe that enlightenment is something to be reached for. It is already here.

We are born enlightened, but we forget.

reply to post by ottobot


"We are born enlightened, but we forget."

If you had remembered enlightenment then you would feel at home everywhere you are. If you don't feel at home everywhere you are then the feeling you feel is dis- ease. That uneasy feeling is fear.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ottobot

 

"We are born enlightened, but we forget."

If you had remembered enlightenment then you would feel at home everywhere you are. If you don't feel at home everywhere you are then the feeling you feel is dis- ease. That uneasy feeling is fear.

Since I feel the "uneasy" feeling, I realize that it is not fear. It is a feeling that something is missing or something is lost that I can almost reach... or that is there, though I can't see it.

It is not any type of fear, it is some feeling (which I can only feel in a certain spot directly behind my left ear) that if I reach over a certain way, I will find what I am missing. I really can't think of any other way to explain it. It is more like expectation mixed with jubilation than anything, but I also realize that it is something I will likely always have to live with. It is not actually "dis - ease", it is "wait, where's the rest of me?".

I feel perfectly fine anywhere I go and can be at ease anywhere I go. I just don't let other people affect me. But, I still always feel like something is missing, and this is what I can't figure out.

Anyway, like I said, I don't think "enlightenment" is something that needs to be found. I think it just is us, and I think it has something to do with learning how to listen to our intuition as another sense.

Since you asked: No, I really dont want to achieve enlightenment. My ego is large enough and I dont need any more addition to my superiority complex.

"Achieving enlightenment" isnt a huge goal of mine. I am assuming you mean a complete sudden or large achievement rather than a series of small discoveries and truths uncovered over a period of time. I prefer the long drawn out method I suppose.. so I can chew on each discovery and digest slowly. The idea of a " KABLAM enlightenment" should be frightening beyond belief to anyone.. specifically those who have experienced a small dim light in the darkness of personal enlightenment. It would also diminish the sweet savoring of a small truth discovered. Just IMO, of course. My main achievement I work on : mastery of MYSELF. Over 4 decades and Im still working on it. WIsh there was a fast track accelerated course of "KABLAM mastery of self". Now, that Id buy into.

Originally posted by splitlevel
A lot of people on this site, seem to enjoy the whole idea and staying on the road to possible enlightenment.
With some people im sure they genuinely wish to be enlightened but many others are simply adding the idea of the journey to their lives as nothing more than yet another "lifestlye choice". in otherwords it gives bored people or people who want to appear as interesting to others in their peer group something to talk about and base their identities on, which is irrelivent to me and i understand why peole want to live in this dilusional way.

Self help books are a billion dollar industry, generally telling people everything about themselves they already knew, but often forgot or didnt have the motivation to use these traits for "self improvement".
And so your book shelf is full and still you are no further to reaching enlightenment.
And for many this is irrelivent, the goal is not to reach enlightenment, afterall, what the hell would you do once you reached enlightenment? bang would go your identity as a mystical traveller, you would need to sell all your books and get a new set of friends.

So for those who really do want to be enlightened, I will tell you my experience.
I never read a book of any kind about any subject. This was because I knew by instinct that if there were a book or a teacher ever who had the answer to the meaning of life then everyone would know it and the world would be a utopia. knowing this, i rejected jesus, buddha and anyone else who people proclaim as saviours.
I meditated for years without realising what zen meditation was. i just knew instinctivley only I could awnser my own question.

then one day it hit me, out of the blue. the same feeling you get when you remember something you had forgotten all about. Exept a thousand times greater. You remember who you really are.
For those of you who have built an image for yourselves as mystic travellers and are convinced thats who you are, then the idea of waking up may be quite a disturbing one.
I understand people who want to stay asleep, believe me. I know whats it like to awaken, it took me a long time to reintergrate into daily life without seeing how deluded people around me are. Its not much fun seeing how everyone is living diluded lives and chasing an illusion to be happy. its not an easy place to be on the outside.
I now know who i am but have accepted that to live in society you need to play along, but atleast I know its all just a ridiculous game, but what else would I do otherwise...be a hermit in a cave.

edit on 8-5-2011 by splitlevel because: spelling mistakes

Once nonduality is experienced it cannot be un-experienced.
Its the end of all questions.
Nonduality = Not two
I am.
Namaste.