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Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom’s Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
Thanks for the link (book marked)
Of Course scientists make predictions. That is a part of the scientific method. Actually it is what science is all about. The testing of the hypothesis.
My ex used to fire eight inch guns, given wind speed, direction and the "charge" they would have to "predict" where the heck the shell would land.
If I take a lump of pure sodium and toss it in to a beaker of water I can predict I will surprise the heck out of a classroom of students
Unless they have already seen this video
You are very, very right. And btw, to show that even scientists are making predictions.
Thanks for the link (book marked)
Of Course scientists make predictions. That is a part of the scientific method. Actually it is what science is all about. The testing of the hypothesis.
My ex used to fire eight inch guns, given wind speed, direction and the "charge" they would have to "predict" where the heck the shell would land.
If I take a lump of pure sodium and toss it in to a beaker of water I can predict I will surprise the heck out of a classroom of students
Unless they have already seen this video
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
The person has succeeded in getting on my last nerve. I am out before the tequila and angst gets me banned.
Your on your own and most importantly your opinion is valued much higher than...
Skol,
t
The person has succeeded in getting on my last nerve. I am out before the tequila and angst gets me banned.
Your on your own and most importantly your opinion is valued much higher than...
Skol,
t
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot
Seriously, this guy hasn't posted ONE SHRED OF PROOF...all he has done is made claims in which he claims "is the truth and the only way"... Then he has the gall to demean religious people when it seems he has created his own religion around himself...
For crying out loud, learn some humility, and learn to speak and write like normal people.
Really you claim to not be religious which is odd considering most Cubans in Exile who revile Castro are.
No where have I made the absolute claims you purport that I am making, I published an essay on Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies, that you have now clearly admitted to attacking because you imagine it demeans the religious, who after all these years, most of which still haven't learned to turn the other cheek, while they use their religion to justify their rude behavior and slanders.
Rather than deal with that topic, you have tried to make the topic about me.
Something I have sadly become all to accustomed to, in part because it's a mainstay of many of the religious and pro-Zionists as a way to deflect away from the fact that they don't really have sound arguments for the things that they claim are real and relevant that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to support, other than a lot of people based on faith, and circular logic arguments claiming that there are.
While I keep hearing that I am not as intelligent or all knowing as you imagine I am claiming to be, that's really just saying that in fact you believe to be superiorly intelligent and all knowing.
So it's a silly argument to try to make, and completely off topic.
Hopefully you will reconsider this strategy.
But I always appreciate anyone who can bump a thread and increase it's exposure.
Thanks for that.
edit on 10/5/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot
Seriously, this guy hasn't posted ONE SHRED OF PROOF...all he has done is made claims in which he claims "is the truth and the only way"... Then he has the gall to demean religious people when it seems he has created his own religion around himself...
For crying out loud, learn some humility, and learn to speak and write like normal people.
Really you claim to not be religious which is odd considering most Cubans in Exile who revile Castro are.
No where have I made the absolute claims you purport that I am making, I published an essay on Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies, that you have now clearly admitted to attacking because you imagine it demeans the religious, who after all these years, most of which still haven't learned to turn the other cheek, while they use their religion to justify their rude behavior and slanders.
Rather than deal with that topic, you have tried to make the topic about me.
Something I have sadly become all to accustomed to, in part because it's a mainstay of many of the religious and pro-Zionists as a way to deflect away from the fact that they don't really have sound arguments for the things that they claim are real and relevant that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to support, other than a lot of people based on faith, and circular logic arguments claiming that they are.
While I keep hearing that I am not as intelligent or all knowing as you imagine I am claiming to be, that's really just saying that in fact you believe to be superiorly intelligent and all knowing.
So it's a silly argument to try to make, and completely off topic.
Hopefully you will reconsider this strategy.
But I always appreciate anyone who can bump a thread and increase it's exposure.
Thanks for that.
I'll pray for you tonight,
goodnight and U2U me if you need.
God Bless,
t
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Butterbone
Sadly many consider the rebellions in the Mid East to not be about population capping but rather, instead the CIA and the Department of Defense using psyops and the Internet to manipulate mass opinion, and set up covert revolutionary elements in these societies.
There is much evidence for this. The HB Gary Emails hacked by Anonymous detailing how the soft ware works, the President of the United States admitting that he has months ago established Presidential findings, autocractic decrees to set the CIA in motion, to assist in distabilizing targeted regimes, as well as the US Army's Psyops mission statements.
This is a far more likely scenario since there is far more evidence for that.
As far as the rest of your post, it really is just an ad-hominem attack that has nothing to do with the content or validity of the opening post, so forgive for me for not taking the bait, and responding to these attempts at slander.
Thanks for commenting.
The perceived attempt at slander is driven by your ego man. I'm not insulting you in any way. If you want to be persecuted there are faster and more direct routes. I'm telling you how I perceived your post. It was self promotion seemingly without reason other than to point out that you think you are smarter than sooooo many other people. And that's not "scientific". lol. That is childish and it isn't the basis for a discussion, it is mild trolling.
And to point out to you that your premise is short sighted and ignores the reality that you are connecting gigantic sets of unproven data with no basis at all other than your internally reasoned assumptions. I didn't say you were wrong. I said that I found it interesting that you point to history and logic as the primary source of your epiphany, when in my opinion history and logic both allow and point to the probable failure of most systems given enough stressors and time for the population to destabilize.
In this case even if I were attacking you, it would not be Ad-Hominem. My direct line of reasoning against your statements are that your expressions of character would imply you are using your assumptions as a way to pass judgment on people you deem beneath you. There is no logical fallacy implied in that. Nor is it a basis to discredit your statements. Merely to point out that your evaluation of huge sets of information are not to educate, but to ridicule. That would be an opinion based on interpretation.
The population cap analogy was not a literal population cap. It was a comparison of like sets. And for you to turn right around and claim that the "conspiracy" of internet truths about the CIA controlling mass populations across geographic extremes using the internet which is heavily controlled in all of these countries is.....interesting to say the least.
And because I'm not attacking you, I'll explain that populations, under the analogy, even if controlled by the CIA are still relevant in the expression. External forces acting on the "population" are just part of the stressors in that system. The cap to which I referred would be much closer to a reasoned internal decision to control the populations growth and the stressors in that system. China and Switzerland would be the two best examples of a population cap in the analogy. Does that help you to understand the analogy a little better?
I'm merely suggesting that you aren't as concerned with why the apocalypse is important as a cultural symbol as you are with pointing out how stupid you think people are who subscribe to it. The apocalypse was just the vehicle you used for derision and self promotion.
That's all.
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Not only have you shown no proof whatsoever to what you claim, but you can't even see how delluded you have become.
If you don't think you are stroking your ego when making sweeping claims such as "
Second, Cubans don't like communism, or castro because castro is an evil bastard and because there is no freedom whatsoever under communism...which really has nothing to do with this thread, but you should thank yourself for trying to derail your own thread... Not that your ego stroking rants help it much, but anyway.
Third, a prediction made by a scientist which states that seismic and magmatic activity will increase in 2012-2015 really has nothing to do with "doomsday predictions"?.... Really?...
Not only have you shown no proof whatsoever to what you claim, but you can't even see how delluded you have become.
If you don't think you are stroking your ego when making sweeping claims such as "
then you are even more delluded than i first thought.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler My emperical data is amassed in one of the most significant and sweeping threads that has ever been published on this web site or any other.
Second, Cubans don't like communism, or castro because castro is an evil bastard and because there is no freedom whatsoever under communism...which really has nothing to do with this thread, but you should thank yourself for trying to derail your own thread... Not that your ego stroking rants help it much, but anyway.
Third, a prediction made by a scientist which states that seismic and magmatic activity will increase in 2012-2015 really has nothing to do with "doomsday predictions"?.... Really?...
edit on 10-5-2011 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
No one is demeaning anyone nor has anyone created a religion. You seem upset that you cannot make people entertain your theories or beliefs. Which should be no big deal.
If you have a solid case, instead of saying well this is wrong because of this and your ego is so big....Just communicate that you would like to present some evidence as to why prophecies and predictions may have validity and should be considered.
Do not get caught up in what was posted already and try to discredit it. Just present your case and your evidence and from that I'm sure you would inspire a lot of inquiry. Seriously, I have not seen Proto saying that this is the only way.
I know Proto well, and believe me, he may have confidence in his theories which is a good thing but he'd never say that his theories are the only way. He puts a lot of research into his ideas and appreciates when someone counters with solid research of their own.
I mean really, I saw a poster a while back make the claim that he indeed was the expert on the subject and the Proto should take a back seat to his vast knowledge as he would begin to lay out his information.
Proto never said he was the expert and this isn't the end all. It is a discussion about why the prophecies and predictions that arise and are rife with doom and gloom appeal to people.
If in fact that poster was the expert he would be well served to begin his own thread and claim that he is indeed the expert in the opening post and take it from there. It would be interesting to say the least.
Seriously, this guy hasn't posted ONE SHRED OF PROOF...all he has done is made claims in which he claims "is the truth and the only way"... Then he has the gall to demean religious people when it seems he has created his own religion around himself...
No one is demeaning anyone nor has anyone created a religion. You seem upset that you cannot make people entertain your theories or beliefs. Which should be no big deal.
If you have a solid case, instead of saying well this is wrong because of this and your ego is so big....Just communicate that you would like to present some evidence as to why prophecies and predictions may have validity and should be considered.
Do not get caught up in what was posted already and try to discredit it. Just present your case and your evidence and from that I'm sure you would inspire a lot of inquiry. Seriously, I have not seen Proto saying that this is the only way.
I know Proto well, and believe me, he may have confidence in his theories which is a good thing but he'd never say that his theories are the only way. He puts a lot of research into his ideas and appreciates when someone counters with solid research of their own.
I mean really, I saw a poster a while back make the claim that he indeed was the expert on the subject and the Proto should take a back seat to his vast knowledge as he would begin to lay out his information.
Proto never said he was the expert and this isn't the end all. It is a discussion about why the prophecies and predictions that arise and are rife with doom and gloom appeal to people.
If in fact that poster was the expert he would be well served to begin his own thread and claim that he is indeed the expert in the opening post and take it from there. It would be interesting to say the least.
reply to post by Butterbone
Actually considering that Obama, HB Gary, the Department of Defense and the CIA have admitted to using the Internet to stoke the fires of rebellion in certain Middle Eastern Nations, you would have to be flat out in denial to deny it.
Now here is what I find interesting, is that a relatively new poster, and a relatively old poster but with a very limited posting history, seem to be on the same strange page of a population cap argument.
While spreading some of that Middle Eastern Propaganda the sockpuppet crowd is known for.
This is an assumptive argument of the kind you are in fact decrying.
While I have made no statements to suggest that I deem people who subscribe to these philosophies and prophecies beneath me, you are making a clear assumptive argument based on pure wishful thinking and self serving speculation to support your argument.
The logical fallacy is all yours friend.
I believe it to be even less relevant to the thread than I originally did. Thanks for reinforcing that view.
Which is neither based on fact, or statements than can be directly attributed to me.
Which is why you can only suggest it as a form of inuendo and slander, that really honestly is not in the spirit of ATS.
Please read the terms of service here on ATS we attack the subject not the poster.
Asking someone to argue charachter based on self serving assessments aimed at defamation is just a horrible way to convince anyone with an objective and open mind that you are someone with an open and objective mind.
The topic really is Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies, not why you think the poster posted it, and not what you imagine they must be meaning to make a rediculous straw man argument to knock down based on direct ad-hominem attacks.
Please do consider I am no stranger to controversial topics on ATS where these types of tactics being employed by highly biased and agenda driven posters, who really can't accept that people have their own opinions and views all too frequently occur.
Thanks.
The population cap analogy was not a literal population cap. It was a comparison of like sets. And for you to turn right around and claim that the "conspiracy" of internet truths about the CIA controlling mass populations across geographic extremes using the internet which is heavily controlled in all of these countries is.....interesting to say the least.
Actually considering that Obama, HB Gary, the Department of Defense and the CIA have admitted to using the Internet to stoke the fires of rebellion in certain Middle Eastern Nations, you would have to be flat out in denial to deny it.
Now here is what I find interesting, is that a relatively new poster, and a relatively old poster but with a very limited posting history, seem to be on the same strange page of a population cap argument.
While spreading some of that Middle Eastern Propaganda the sockpuppet crowd is known for.
In this case even if I were attacking you, it would not be Ad-Hominem. My direct line of reasoning against your statements are that your expressions of character would imply you are using your assumptions as a way to pass judgment on people you deem beneath you. There is no logical fallacy implied in that. Nor is it a basis to discredit your statements. Merely to point out that your evaluation of huge sets of information are not to educate, but to ridicule. That would be an opinion based on interpretation.
This is an assumptive argument of the kind you are in fact decrying.
While I have made no statements to suggest that I deem people who subscribe to these philosophies and prophecies beneath me, you are making a clear assumptive argument based on pure wishful thinking and self serving speculation to support your argument.
The logical fallacy is all yours friend.
And because I'm not attacking you, I'll explain that populations, under the analogy, even if controlled by the CIA are still relevant in the expression. External forces acting on the "population" are just part of the stressors in that system. The cap to which I referred would be much closer to a reasoned internal decision to control the populations growth and the stressors in that system. China and Switzerland would be the two best examples of a population cap in the analogy. Does that help you to understand the analogy a little better?
I believe it to be even less relevant to the thread than I originally did. Thanks for reinforcing that view.
I'm merely suggesting that you aren't as concerned with why the apocalypse is important as a cultural symbol as you are with pointing out how stupid you think people are who subscribe to it. The apocalypse was just the vehicle you used for derision and self promotion.
Which is neither based on fact, or statements than can be directly attributed to me.
Which is why you can only suggest it as a form of inuendo and slander, that really honestly is not in the spirit of ATS.
Please read the terms of service here on ATS we attack the subject not the poster.
Asking someone to argue charachter based on self serving assessments aimed at defamation is just a horrible way to convince anyone with an objective and open mind that you are someone with an open and objective mind.
The topic really is Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies, not why you think the poster posted it, and not what you imagine they must be meaning to make a rediculous straw man argument to knock down based on direct ad-hominem attacks.
Please do consider I am no stranger to controversial topics on ATS where these types of tactics being employed by highly biased and agenda driven posters, who really can't accept that people have their own opinions and views all too frequently occur.
Thanks.
edit on 10/5/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
Seriously, this guy hasn't posted ONE SHRED OF PROOF...all he has done is made claims in which he claims "is the truth and the only way"... Then he has the gall to demean religious people when it seems he has created his own religion around himself...
No one is demeaning anyone nor has anyone created a religion. You seem upset that you cannot make people entertain your theories or beliefs. Which should be no big deal.
If you have a solid case, instead of saying well this is wrong because of this and your ego is so big....Just communicate that you would like to present some evidence as to why prophecies and predictions may have validity and should be considered.
Do not get caught up in what was posted already and try to discredit it. Just present your case and your evidence and from that I'm sure you would inspire a lot of inquiry. Seriously, I have not seen Proto saying that this is the only way.
I know Proto well, and believe me, he may have confidence in his theories which is a good thing but he'd never say that his theories are the only way. He puts a lot of research into his ideas and appreciates when someone counters with solid research of their own.
I mean really, I saw a poster a while back make the claim that he indeed was the expert on the subject and the Proto should take a back seat to his vast knowledge as he would begin to lay out his information.
Proto never said he was the expert and this isn't the end all. It is a discussion about why the prophecies and predictions that arise and are rife with doom and gloom appeal to people.
If in fact that poster was the expert he would be well served to begin his own thread and claim that he is indeed the expert in the opening post and take it from there. It would be interesting to say the least.
Damn, this means I should pray for you too.
Yes, I know I said it was beddie-bye time, but...
Too tired to correct illogical back patting.
Rest assured, should does not equate to will.
Sigh,
t
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
What is it you imagine I am claiming that you feel I haven't provided proof for. My opening piece an essay based on a compilation of different factors that many in the social sciences, historical and academic communities often discuss in similiar terms is just that promoted as an essay.
As far as some questions members have had regarding the spread of Abrahamic religons as to whether violence was employed, history is the proof of that. It's a well known fact.
How you imagine this makes someone dellusional is really a mystery friend.
Actually once again the numbers are there to back up my significant conspiracy works. Presently with 523 Flags, and over 400 stars on the opening piece, with 198 pages in a thread that sees daily activity for well over a year now, you would be hard pressed to make the argument that I haven't laid out a significant case for my theories and that they aren't well recieved and popular to a level that in reality no conspiracy theory in the history of ATS has ever acheived.
Is that an ego driven statement. It's just a simple statistical fact, based on the systems that ATS rates the relevancy of threads by.
You asked where my emperical evidence is for some of my statements and beliefs and I told.
All Roads Lead to Rome!
Once again just a poor way to present an argument.
Actually with over 50 years in power clearly some Cubans do, because while Fidel is a murdering tyrant, he can't run a nation of a million plus people single handedly.
Even many Cuban Exiles post Mariel Boat Lift are economic refugees and believe it or not, some actually don't enjoy having to perform in our system once they get here, knowing that failure to do so could mean having no place to live, and no rations, and to the chagrin and dismay of their relatives who often paid to get them here, turn around and go back.
Pre Mariel Boat Lift immigrants are staunchly anti-Castro, and religious.
As someone who lives in Miami and is immersed in the Cuban Culture, believe me I am well aware of the demographics based on how Cubans themselves look at and describe things.
I have in the past lived in Southern California for well over a decade and been through well over a dozen small to significant earthquakes.
Often there are periods of increased seismic activity, often Earthquakes are in unpopulated places where no one is hurt at all.
There is no evidence found in modern times that periods of increased Earthquake Activity in the earth's past even came close to making a dent in the human race let alone wiping it out.
So there isn't any evidence that this could lead to DOOMS DAY.
Try not to let the boogie man get you man.
Not only have you shown no proof whatsoever to what you claim, but you can't even see how delluded you have become.
What is it you imagine I am claiming that you feel I haven't provided proof for. My opening piece an essay based on a compilation of different factors that many in the social sciences, historical and academic communities often discuss in similiar terms is just that promoted as an essay.
As far as some questions members have had regarding the spread of Abrahamic religons as to whether violence was employed, history is the proof of that. It's a well known fact.
How you imagine this makes someone dellusional is really a mystery friend.
If you don't think you are stroking your ego when making sweeping claims such as
Actually once again the numbers are there to back up my significant conspiracy works. Presently with 523 Flags, and over 400 stars on the opening piece, with 198 pages in a thread that sees daily activity for well over a year now, you would be hard pressed to make the argument that I haven't laid out a significant case for my theories and that they aren't well recieved and popular to a level that in reality no conspiracy theory in the history of ATS has ever acheived.
Is that an ego driven statement. It's just a simple statistical fact, based on the systems that ATS rates the relevancy of threads by.
You asked where my emperical evidence is for some of my statements and beliefs and I told.
All Roads Lead to Rome!
then you are even more delluded than i first thought.
Once again just a poor way to present an argument.
Second, Cubans don't like communism, or castro because castro is an evil bastard and because there is no freedom whatsoever under communism...which really has nothing to do with this thread, but you should thank yourself for trying to derail your own thread... Not that your ego stroking rants help it much, but anyway.
Actually with over 50 years in power clearly some Cubans do, because while Fidel is a murdering tyrant, he can't run a nation of a million plus people single handedly.
Even many Cuban Exiles post Mariel Boat Lift are economic refugees and believe it or not, some actually don't enjoy having to perform in our system once they get here, knowing that failure to do so could mean having no place to live, and no rations, and to the chagrin and dismay of their relatives who often paid to get them here, turn around and go back.
Pre Mariel Boat Lift immigrants are staunchly anti-Castro, and religious.
As someone who lives in Miami and is immersed in the Cuban Culture, believe me I am well aware of the demographics based on how Cubans themselves look at and describe things.
Third, a prediction made by a scientist which states that seismic and magmatic activity will increase in 2012-2015 really has nothing to do with "doomsday predictions"?.... Really?...
I have in the past lived in Southern California for well over a decade and been through well over a dozen small to significant earthquakes.
Often there are periods of increased seismic activity, often Earthquakes are in unpopulated places where no one is hurt at all.
There is no evidence found in modern times that periods of increased Earthquake Activity in the earth's past even came close to making a dent in the human race let alone wiping it out.
So there isn't any evidence that this could lead to DOOMS DAY.
Try not to let the boogie man get you man.
edit on 10/5/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Butterbone
The population cap analogy was not a literal population cap. It was a comparison of like sets. And for you to turn right around and claim that the "conspiracy" of internet truths about the CIA controlling mass populations across geographic extremes using the internet which is heavily controlled in all of these countries is.....interesting to say the least.
Actually considering that Obama, HB Gary, the Department of Defense and the CIA have admitted to using the Internet to stoke the fires of rebellion in certain Middle Eastern Nations, you would have to be flat out in denial to deny it.
Now here is what I find interesting, is that a relatively new poster, and a relatively old poster but with a very limited posting history, seem to be on the same strange page of a population cap argument.
While spreading some of that Middle Eastern Propaganda the sockpuppet crowd is known for.
I don't think you know what your point is in that. You just needed to respond, and you saw a sentence that you can back up with a fox news story but didn't bother to. Well that's good enough reasoning for the internet!
And we were no where near the same page on the Population cap.
You made the statement that the population cap wasn't the cause, as much as the "propoganda and psy ops" program. You obviously didn't understand my analogy and now you don't want it to be evident that you didn't, so you are being complimentary. Equivocating your misunderstanding since you aren't sure you understand what I was talking about.
You missed the obvious opportunity to point out that I most likely didn't state my analogy clearly.
Which I didn't.
I'm using words like "sets" and "expression" completely out of context and with unqualified assertions.
And instead of pointing that out, you find interestingly that we somehow ended up on the same page.
And you never even touched on the "slander" thing a second time.
The rest of this is just pointless. But I don't mind amusing myself.
The fallacy is mine indeed sir.
I Said Indeed Sir!
I bet you saw yourself wearing a monocle when you imagined speaking those words to my shame ridden visage. My Vissage!
My imagined bowler hat looking as sad as my horse who could also obviously now see my shame. LOL
In this case even if I were attacking you, it would not be Ad-Hominem. My direct line of reasoning against your statements are that your expressions of character would imply you are using your assumptions as a way to pass judgment on people you deem beneath you. There is no logical fallacy implied in that. Nor is it a basis to discredit your statements. Merely to point out that your evaluation of huge sets of information are not to educate, but to ridicule. That would be an opinion based on interpretation.
This is an assumptive argument of the kind you are in fact decrying.
While I have made no statements to suggest that I deem people who subscribe to these philosophies beneath me, you are making a clear assumptive argument based on pure wishful thinking there to support your argument.
The logical fallacy is all yours friend.
Again there is no fallacy. I'm not stating that you are wrong because you are not a nice person or because your shirt is green and green is the color of traitors. You should look that up. I think you might be mistaken. Please post a link to wikipedia or dictionary dot com to prove you've read this.
And on top of that, lol I'm not decrying. I was stating an opinion. You are writing in a form of a structured argument, but you aren't making an argument.
If this was Chess, you wouldn't be playing the game of Chess. You would be attempting to apply Checkers rules, so that you can simply take a piece off the board. But as long as you flail your arms around enough, it looks like you are doing something. And if you speak in a superior fashion, the other player may not know you don't know what you are talking about.
And because I'm not attacking you, I'll explain that populations, under the analogy, even if controlled by the CIA are still relevant in the expression. External forces acting on the "population" are just part of the stressors in that system. The cap to which I referred would be much closer to a reasoned internal decision to control the populations growth and the stressors in that system. China and Switzerland would be the two best examples of a population cap in the analogy. Does that help you to understand the analogy a little better?
I believe it to be even less relevant to the thread than I originally did. Thanks for reinforcing that view.
Because you don't know what I meant. You couldn't have. I did not define how or why China or Switzerland could in any way represent this population cap I was talking about. Do you want to claim to be the most intuitive mind ever? Were you using psychic powers?
I'm merely suggesting that you aren't as concerned with why the apocalypse is important as a cultural symbol as you are with pointing out how stupid you think people are who subscribe to it. The apocalypse was just the vehicle you used for derision and self promotion.
Which is neither based on fact, or statements than can be directly attributed to me.
Which is why you can only suggest it as a form of slander, that really honestly is not in the spirit of ATS.
Please read the terms of service here on ATS we attack the subject not the poster.
Asking someone to argue charachter based on self serving assessments aimed at defemation is just a horrible way to convince anyone with an objective and open mind that you are someone with an open and objective mind.
The topic really is Understanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies, not why you think the poster poster it, and not what you imagine they must be meaning to make a rediculous straw man argument to knock down based on direct ad-hominem attacks.
Please do consider I am no stranger to controversial topics on ATS are these types of tactics being employed by highly biased and agenda driven posters, who really can't accept that people have their own opinions and views.
Thanks.
And that is the last stage of the pseudo intellectual tripe. Back pedaling victimization. I feel that my posts would stand up to Moderator Scrutiny if objective. I'm not insulting or attacking you. It is my opinion that you chose to mask your ridicule with a scholarly "essay". Your opinion as stated in your "essay" is sacrosanct as you presented it. The only people who could or would disagree with your "essay" are those who believe in divination practices and references and who choose to link real world events to their rituals and signs and prophecies.
That is targeting a group knowing they will be offended, and then goading them.
And yes, you are goading them.
Something I have sadly become all to accustomed to, in part because it's a mainstay of many of the religious and pro-Zionists as a way to deflect away from the fact that they don't really have sound arguments for the things that they claim are real and relevant that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to support, other than a lot of people based on faith, and circular logic arguments claiming that they are.
You are poking them with a walking cane instead of a pointy stick. Your long history of being ridiculed by the "pro-zionists". LOL
What about the Zoroastrians? How have they dealt with your crippling expose's on their core system? No problems between you and the Hindu's? What about the Celts or Druids or any of the Neo-Pagans? Shinto?
Have they been fighting you? Shamans? Polytheists? Sun Worshipers?
Oh. And to be sure I have no agenda. I'm neither religious, nor a conspiracy theorist, nor a believer in prophecy. What I am is a life long student of science and art and philosophy. In learning programming for distributed information simulation technology the first thing I had to do was take an intensive series of classes about logic and argument. Simulation systems actually use 3 separate systems to ensure the validity of the simulation. They do this through multiple systems creating opposing arguments that get evaluated and judged finally by a third system.
So I've spent a good amount of time trying to understand the basis of "argument". And an essay is an argument.
I came to ATS following information about John Titor, and some Australian kid who doesn't believe the moon landings. Both of these topics were interesting to me because of the frame work of the arguments. You see, no matter how wrong or improbable the topic, the posters about these subjects were making such solid arguments and their logic so solid, that an acknowledgment by most people trained in logic and argument would really have to be made. They were really solid arguments for what I would consider silly or ridiculous topics. That is what it means to be open minded. You have to accept that even with a lack of empirical evidence, a logical argument can be strong enough to admit possibility. You are applying scientific principles (and attempted language) like a hammer to someones Faberge egg of belief. And again I ask for what reason? To what benefit of the people you are trying to sway? Are you trying to free them from ideas and practices that are harmful to them? I don't get that impression. Again, in my opinion, you are doing it for you own amusement, and for you own self promotion as a truly wise and critical thinker.
I was intrigued by your thread title.
Now. I just don't have any respect for your opinions or your writing.
Enjoy being superior. I'll check back for your well thought out rebuttal that puts me in my place. INDEED SIR!!! :-)
And just so you know. I don't hate you. I would buy you a cookie if we were at the cookie store right now. A big cookie.
reply to post by Butterbone
So far almost your entire argument is based on what you imagine I am thinking, and meaning based on your own wishful thinking, not my own words
Good reasoning for the Internet indeed!
Pure deflection, and once again you imagining you secretly know what goes on inside the unwritten mind of proto!
I don't consider your popultion cap argument relevant to the thread, nor do I consider Fox a very good source of anything but highly biased info-tainment.
Your wish that I misunderstood something gets even more comical with your next statement.
Considering you don't have a accurate and full grasp about what's happening in the middle east, and are woefully oblivious to much of it, the use of an anology is a clear indication that you don't. When it's the basis for your argument that what is driving events in the Middle East is something you put forth as an anology.
However the thread really does remain about Unterstanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies not your poor underdstanding of the current state of turmoil in the Arab and Islamic World.
Would you like a star on your forehead for that? A lollipop?
I am a numbers guy statistical anamolies fascinate me.
Odds, likelihoods, using science to establish trends and often to determine what's wrong with this picture.
I try not to feed into Trolls arguments, or their admission of trolling for amusements.
You will understand why based on your own statements and admissions and baseless accusations why I won't be taking part in your amusement further.
Indeed it is.
English/Irish ancestory, I do own an ascott though if you want some real details to go along with all the imaginary ones you have constructed.
I wore it once in 1989 when I was invited to a charity gala aboard the Queen of England's private yacht, anchored off the coast of New Port Beach.
Since then it's been relegated to a closet drawer.
Considering your whole argument is based upon things you imagine about me, what's to argue, be honest friend, your a troll.
Thanks for admitting what you are attempting to do and doing.
Not relevant to the thread. Please refer to the title.
Truth be told I recieved multiple rounds of moderator applause from multiple moderators including very flattering private messages from those, complimenting me on my well written, insightful and timely post.
Can I go to the bathroom? Oh wait the smell isn't coming from me!
Asking the Christian Science Monitor or Vatican to publish it would be targeting a group that might be offended.
This is ATS a conspiracy site.
Try to get with the program. Politically correct does not mean correct. I could care less who is offended by intelligent examination of constructs and practices.
Your rediculous peer pressure based arguments are just that.
People goad themselves through insecurities that plague themselves and an inability to master their emotions.
If you want to believe dishonest and off topic debate tactics ridicule those subjected to them, all you are illustrating is why you misguidely choose to employ them.
Threads not about how the religious of the world get along with Proto please read the Title, not that it matters, this will be my last response to you.
Yeah a troll.
We get them here.
More off topic chit chat and banter in some inane attempt to establish yourself as an authority of arguing to argue.
Many call such people trolls.
When you aren't imagining things you are denigrating them, good for you!
Your argument does that all for itself.
Proto says beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
They only want to screw you!
I don't think you know what your point is in that. You just needed to respond, and you saw a sentence that you can back up with a fox news story but didn't bother to. Well that's good enough reasoning for the internet!
So far almost your entire argument is based on what you imagine I am thinking, and meaning based on your own wishful thinking, not my own words
Good reasoning for the Internet indeed!
You made the statement that the population cap wasn't the cause, as much as the "propoganda and psy ops" program. You obviously didn't understand my analogy and now you don't want it to be evident that you didn't, so you are being complimentary. Equivocating your misunderstanding since you aren't sure you understand what I was talking about.
Pure deflection, and once again you imagining you secretly know what goes on inside the unwritten mind of proto!
I don't consider your popultion cap argument relevant to the thread, nor do I consider Fox a very good source of anything but highly biased info-tainment.
Your wish that I misunderstood something gets even more comical with your next statement.
You missed the obvious opportunity to point out that I most likely didn't state my analogy clearly.
Considering you don't have a accurate and full grasp about what's happening in the middle east, and are woefully oblivious to much of it, the use of an anology is a clear indication that you don't. When it's the basis for your argument that what is driving events in the Middle East is something you put forth as an anology.
However the thread really does remain about Unterstanding the Appeal of Apocalyptic and other Doom's Day Styled Predictions and Prophecies not your poor underdstanding of the current state of turmoil in the Arab and Islamic World.
I'm using words like "sets" and "expression" completely out of context and with unqualified assertions.
Would you like a star on your forehead for that? A lollipop?
And instead of pointing that out, you find interestingly that we somehow ended up on the same page.
I am a numbers guy statistical anamolies fascinate me.
Odds, likelihoods, using science to establish trends and often to determine what's wrong with this picture.
And you never even touched on the "slander" thing a second time.
The rest of this is just pointless. But I don't mind amusing myself.
I try not to feed into Trolls arguments, or their admission of trolling for amusements.
You will understand why based on your own statements and admissions and baseless accusations why I won't be taking part in your amusement further.
The fallacy is mine indeed sir.
Indeed it is.
I bet you saw yourself wearing a monocle when you imagined speaking those words to my shame ridden visage. My Vissage!
English/Irish ancestory, I do own an ascott though if you want some real details to go along with all the imaginary ones you have constructed.
I wore it once in 1989 when I was invited to a charity gala aboard the Queen of England's private yacht, anchored off the coast of New Port Beach.
Since then it's been relegated to a closet drawer.
Again there is no fallacy. I'm not stating that you are wrong because you are not a nice person or because your shirt is green and green is the color of traitors. You should look that up. I think you might be mistaken. Please post a link to wikipedia or dictionary dot com to prove you've read this.
Considering your whole argument is based upon things you imagine about me, what's to argue, be honest friend, your a troll.
If this was Chess, you wouldn't be playing the game of Chess. You would be attempting to apply Checkers rules, so that you can simply take a piece off the board. But as long as you flail your arms around enough, it looks like you are doing something. And if you speak in a superior fashion, the other player may not know you don't know what you are talking about.
Thanks for admitting what you are attempting to do and doing.
Because you don't know what I meant. You couldn't have. I did not define how or why China or Switzerland could in any way represent this population cap I was talking about. Do you want to claim to be the most intuitive mind ever? Were you using psychic powers?
Not relevant to the thread. Please refer to the title.
And that is the last stage of the pseudo intellectual tripe. Back pedaling victimization. I feel that my posts would stand up to Moderator Scrutiny if objective. I'm not insulting or attacking you. It is my opinion that you chose to mask your ridicule with a scholarly "essay".
Truth be told I recieved multiple rounds of moderator applause from multiple moderators including very flattering private messages from those, complimenting me on my well written, insightful and timely post.
Your opinion as stated in your "essay" is sacrosanct as you presented it. The only people who could or would disagree with your "essay" are those who believe in divination practices and references and who choose to link real world events to their rituals and signs and prophecies.
Can I go to the bathroom? Oh wait the smell isn't coming from me!
That is targeting a group knowing they will be offended, and then goading them.
Asking the Christian Science Monitor or Vatican to publish it would be targeting a group that might be offended.
This is ATS a conspiracy site.
Try to get with the program. Politically correct does not mean correct. I could care less who is offended by intelligent examination of constructs and practices.
Your rediculous peer pressure based arguments are just that.
And yes, you are goading them.
People goad themselves through insecurities that plague themselves and an inability to master their emotions.
You are poking them with a walking cane instead of a pointy stick. Your long history of being ridiculed by the "pro-zionists". LOL
If you want to believe dishonest and off topic debate tactics ridicule those subjected to them, all you are illustrating is why you misguidely choose to employ them.
What about the Zoroastrians? How have they dealt with your crippling expose's on their core system? No problems between you and the Hindu's? What about the Celts or Druids or any of the Neo-Pagans? Shinto?
Threads not about how the religious of the world get along with Proto please read the Title, not that it matters, this will be my last response to you.
Oh. And to be sure I have no agenda. I'm neither religious, nor a conspiracy theorist, nor a believer in prophecy. What I am is a life long student of science and art and philosophy. In learning programming for distributed information simulation technology the first thing I had to do was take an intensive series of classes about logic and argument. Simulation systems actually use 3 separate systems to ensure the validity of the simulation. They do this through multiple systems creating opposing arguments that get evaluated and judged finally by a third system.
Yeah a troll.
We get them here.
I came to ATS following information about John Titor, and some Australian kid who doesn't believe the moon landings. Both of these topics were interesting to me because of the frame work of the arguments. You see, no matter how wrong or improbable the topic, the posters about these subjects were making such solid arguments and their logic so solid, that an acknowledgment by most people trained in logic and argument would really have to be made. They were really solid arguments for what I would consider silly or ridiculous topics. That is what it means to be open minded. You have to accept that even with a lack of empirical evidence, a logical argument can be strong enough to admit possibility. You are applying scientific principles (and attempted language) like a hammer to someones Faberge egg of belief. And again I ask for what reason? To what benefit of the people you are trying to sway? Are you trying to free them from ideas and practices that are harmful to them? I don't get that impression. Again, in my opinion, you are doing it for you own amusement, and for you own self promotion as a truly wise and critical thinker.
More off topic chit chat and banter in some inane attempt to establish yourself as an authority of arguing to argue.
Many call such people trolls.
I was intrigued by your thread title.
Now. I just don't have any respect for your opinions or your writing.
When you aren't imagining things you are denigrating them, good for you!
Enjoy being superior. I'll check back for your well thought out rebuttal that puts me in my place. INDEED SIR!!! :-)
Your argument does that all for itself.
And just so you know. I don't hate you. I would buy you a cookie if we were at the cookie store right now. A big cookie.
Proto says beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
They only want to screw you!
edit on 10/5/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by jackflap
No one is demeaning anyone nor has anyone created a religion. You seem upset that you cannot make people entertain your theories or beliefs. Which should be no big deal.
Oooh, right...so not only does Proto show not ONE single piece of proof to corroborate his claims, but he claims everyone who believes some predictions can come true are only "religious people" who obviously he has much disdain against, not to mention the rest of the vitriol about circuses, bread, death and taxes, and prophecies are there only for fear, which again he shows no proof for any of this but we all must accept his word, and you claim he is not on an ego trip when he himself states in this thread.
My emperical data is amassed in one of the most significant and sweeping threads that has ever been published on this web site or any other.
Then he goes as far as laiming the more militarized and authoritarian the state, the more "more dooms day and apocalyptical prophecies and predictions become prevalent", when it is obvious he hasn't picked up one history book, because the most atheist belif, communism has been the most militaristic, and authoritarian, not to mention that have caused the most suffering, and death, yet because of it's atheist principles neither spiritualism, nor religion, and much less predictions were ever accepted, or "prevalent" under such militaristic and authoritarian doctrine. Which again shows how wrong Proto is.
Originally posted by jackflap
If you have a solid case, instead of saying well this is wrong because of this and your ego is so big....Just communicate that you would like to present some evidence as to why prophecies and predictions may have validity and should be considered.
I actually did that and all the response from Proto I saw was again to proclaim his all wise responses, without any corroborating evidence migt I add, must be accepted as the truth, despite being wrong.
edit on 10-5-2011 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
Actually while Communism wracked up an impressive body count over it's short lived life span, you are failing to consider two things, the worlds mainstream abrahamic religions have wracked up a far more impressive body count over their millenia in existence.
Further obviously many people inside of communist systems rejected them and kept religious beliefs, so for all you know those living under the communist yoke did embrace dooms day prophecies though they weren't a construct of the 'official' state.
Finally you seem to think I am some kind of proponent of communism, notice the word seems as in appears, as in not the kind of silly absolute statements you keep making about what you percieve others motivations or experience to be.
So all in all it's not a very well substantiated argument, in addition communism has not been a system that expanded much by military means. Yes Eastern Europe fell under it as part of the war against the Nazis.
China still hasn't managed to take over Taiwan as badly as it would like to, and while Cuba has been involved in places in Africa mainly to give it's troops combat experience and the nation itself a place breifly on the world stage, these aren't nations expanding relentlessly.
Though they maintain a defense against those that do.
Conversely the Russian Empire shrank. The Chinese never acquired one. And Cuba heavily embargoed hangs on by the nails.
A big aspect of the actual militant state is expansion through military endeavors, not just the security apparatus it employs at home.
Statements like "I have never picked up a history book" are simply not substantiated by my posting history on the site, nor your statement.
Finally you have failed to fully comprehend I list three main factors and a couple of minor ones as the main appeals behind doom and gloom prophecies. You have take the offended religious track and focus, while over exagerating and misconstruing scientific community based predictions as being similiar to doom and gloom appocalyptic prophecies based on fears and religion.
Maybe if you didn't attempt to inject so much anger and speculation about me into your presentations they would be better considered by others.
Just sayin!
Then he goes as far as laiming the more militarized and authoritarian the state, the more "more dooms day and apocalyptical prophecies and predictions become prevalent", when it is obvious he hasn't picked up one history book, because the most atheist belif, communism has been the most militaristic, and authoritarian, not to mention that have caused the most suffering, and death, yet because of it's atheist principles neither spiritualism, nor religion, and much less predictions were ever accepted, or "prevalent" under such militaristic and authoritarian doctrine. Which again shows how wrong Proto is.
Actually while Communism wracked up an impressive body count over it's short lived life span, you are failing to consider two things, the worlds mainstream abrahamic religions have wracked up a far more impressive body count over their millenia in existence.
Further obviously many people inside of communist systems rejected them and kept religious beliefs, so for all you know those living under the communist yoke did embrace dooms day prophecies though they weren't a construct of the 'official' state.
Finally you seem to think I am some kind of proponent of communism, notice the word seems as in appears, as in not the kind of silly absolute statements you keep making about what you percieve others motivations or experience to be.
So all in all it's not a very well substantiated argument, in addition communism has not been a system that expanded much by military means. Yes Eastern Europe fell under it as part of the war against the Nazis.
China still hasn't managed to take over Taiwan as badly as it would like to, and while Cuba has been involved in places in Africa mainly to give it's troops combat experience and the nation itself a place breifly on the world stage, these aren't nations expanding relentlessly.
Though they maintain a defense against those that do.
Conversely the Russian Empire shrank. The Chinese never acquired one. And Cuba heavily embargoed hangs on by the nails.
A big aspect of the actual militant state is expansion through military endeavors, not just the security apparatus it employs at home.
Statements like "I have never picked up a history book" are simply not substantiated by my posting history on the site, nor your statement.
Finally you have failed to fully comprehend I list three main factors and a couple of minor ones as the main appeals behind doom and gloom prophecies. You have take the offended religious track and focus, while over exagerating and misconstruing scientific community based predictions as being similiar to doom and gloom appocalyptic prophecies based on fears and religion.
Maybe if you didn't attempt to inject so much anger and speculation about me into your presentations they would be better considered by others.
Just sayin!
edit on 10/5/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Butterbone
I like you. You have said in many more words than I could ever be bothered to muster in this thread the very things that have been rattling around my brain since last night. I was genuinely affected by the response I received from Proto to my first post - I honestly never expected that from a member of his apparent calibre.
And similarly, Proto (please bear in mind that as yet, I haven't read the inevitable response to my expression of disappointment yesterday), I don't hate you either. I was in fact saddened that you had reacted in the manner you did. I see now how my words (in the original post) could have been taken as offensive or derogatory, but surely you could have gathered from the bulk of my comments that I intended you no ill, and that as much as I was responding to you, I was writing for the benefit of others who perhaps have less knowledge about these things than you do. Hence all the links to theories about holographic universes etc. I was attempting to back up the legitimacy of genuine prophetic insight in a scientific manner.
However, you seem to have taken offence and assumed I was merely patronising you, which is why I am saddened, and won't be bothering with any further back and forth in this thread. In fact, I may not even read the as-yet-unread latest response to my second post in this thread, as I anticipate it will be more of the same, more of the same - and I have too much else going on in my life to subject myself to the sort of frustration that comes when banging one's head against the proverbial brick wall.
Could you really not see that I was (and remain) a fan of the majority of your work, and that I was trying to bolster this thread? I freely confess that my opening words - and some of the remainder - were poorly chosen, but my intentions were good.
With regret,
Fly.
I like you. You have said in many more words than I could ever be bothered to muster in this thread the very things that have been rattling around my brain since last night. I was genuinely affected by the response I received from Proto to my first post - I honestly never expected that from a member of his apparent calibre.
And similarly, Proto (please bear in mind that as yet, I haven't read the inevitable response to my expression of disappointment yesterday), I don't hate you either. I was in fact saddened that you had reacted in the manner you did. I see now how my words (in the original post) could have been taken as offensive or derogatory, but surely you could have gathered from the bulk of my comments that I intended you no ill, and that as much as I was responding to you, I was writing for the benefit of others who perhaps have less knowledge about these things than you do. Hence all the links to theories about holographic universes etc. I was attempting to back up the legitimacy of genuine prophetic insight in a scientific manner.
However, you seem to have taken offence and assumed I was merely patronising you, which is why I am saddened, and won't be bothering with any further back and forth in this thread. In fact, I may not even read the as-yet-unread latest response to my second post in this thread, as I anticipate it will be more of the same, more of the same - and I have too much else going on in my life to subject myself to the sort of frustration that comes when banging one's head against the proverbial brick wall.
Could you really not see that I was (and remain) a fan of the majority of your work, and that I was trying to bolster this thread? I freely confess that my opening words - and some of the remainder - were poorly chosen, but my intentions were good.
With regret,
Fly.
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Sorry, but anyone reading Electric Universe's post can see that what you've just written is nonsense. You failed to respond to the bulk of his criticisms, and instead focused on one aspect (communism) and tried to thrash the hell out of his/her point of view in order to demean his/her position, allowing you to dump the above-quoted mish-mash half-truth into your response.
You've gone way down in my estimations since yesterday afternoon, and I see that you genuinely do believe yourself to be wiser than the average bear. Those who are wise in their own eyes, are in fact the biggest fools.
You've allowed your excellent theories of the Roman Empire (etc, etc) to go to your head. Whatever humility you once had has evaporated, and now your words to any who disagree with you are as poisonous as the doctrines of the Empire, which you so cleverly worked to expose in the first place. A sad day.
Your theories do not encompass all areas of reality, and as such you cannot claim a monopoly on truth.
Religion and Spiritual Experience are different things. Both can lead a person to hold points of view that are different from your own (or, to hold additional points of view, entirely separate from an essential agreement with your own, as is the case with me). I trust that is clear.
The overriding problem here, is that you seem convinced that you can lump the gnostic/ mystic in with the religious fundamentalist, or with the subjects of that whitewashed sepulcher, the Church of Rome. You cannot, and should not. An experience of God led me to hold an opinion on prophecy which is different from your own, and that appears to be the essential reason your words were so vicious and mocking. I noticed later that you had a little back-pedal and tried to separate a mystical experience from a human experience of prophecy, but to be honest it was too late for that to be of any consolation.
Your agenda in composing this thread seems to be to have an excuse to bash organised religion. Fair enough, organised religion sucks. However, don't make the mistake of lumping every ''believer' in with the organised religio-control mechanisms.
To attack those who think differently (and don't for a moment suggest that my original post in-thread was any sort of attack, it clearly wasn't) is the hallmark of a tyrant.
I am done with this thread, and I hope you come to your senses soon.
You have take the offended religious track and focus, while over exagerating and misconstruing scientific community based predictions as being similiar to doom and gloom appocalyptic prophecies based on fears and religion.
Sorry, but anyone reading Electric Universe's post can see that what you've just written is nonsense. You failed to respond to the bulk of his criticisms, and instead focused on one aspect (communism) and tried to thrash the hell out of his/her point of view in order to demean his/her position, allowing you to dump the above-quoted mish-mash half-truth into your response.
You've gone way down in my estimations since yesterday afternoon, and I see that you genuinely do believe yourself to be wiser than the average bear. Those who are wise in their own eyes, are in fact the biggest fools.
You've allowed your excellent theories of the Roman Empire (etc, etc) to go to your head. Whatever humility you once had has evaporated, and now your words to any who disagree with you are as poisonous as the doctrines of the Empire, which you so cleverly worked to expose in the first place. A sad day.
Your theories do not encompass all areas of reality, and as such you cannot claim a monopoly on truth.
Religion and Spiritual Experience are different things. Both can lead a person to hold points of view that are different from your own (or, to hold additional points of view, entirely separate from an essential agreement with your own, as is the case with me). I trust that is clear.
The overriding problem here, is that you seem convinced that you can lump the gnostic/ mystic in with the religious fundamentalist, or with the subjects of that whitewashed sepulcher, the Church of Rome. You cannot, and should not. An experience of God led me to hold an opinion on prophecy which is different from your own, and that appears to be the essential reason your words were so vicious and mocking. I noticed later that you had a little back-pedal and tried to separate a mystical experience from a human experience of prophecy, but to be honest it was too late for that to be of any consolation.
Your agenda in composing this thread seems to be to have an excuse to bash organised religion. Fair enough, organised religion sucks. However, don't make the mistake of lumping every ''believer' in with the organised religio-control mechanisms.
To attack those who think differently (and don't for a moment suggest that my original post in-thread was any sort of attack, it clearly wasn't) is the hallmark of a tyrant.
I am done with this thread, and I hope you come to your senses soon.
I mean really, I saw a poster a while back make the claim that he indeed was the expert on the subject and the Proto should take a back seat to his vast knowledge as he would begin to lay out his information.
Proto never said he was the expert and this isn't the end all. It is a discussion about why the prophecies and predictions that arise and are rife with doom and gloom appeal to people.
If in fact that poster was the expert he would be well served to begin his own thread and claim that he is indeed the expert in the opening post and take it from there. It would be interesting to say the least.
I assume this comment from Jackflap was about me.
FOR THE RECORD, as my FINAL input:
I never claimed a desire for Proto to take a back seat in this thread. At the conclusion of my post, I offered to share ONE dream, which I felt was relevant to Proto's theories.
The remainder of my post was to explain the scientific validity for prophecy. And yes, thanks, I will start a thread at some point, but the subject is vast and I'm a man of limited time resources - it will get done when it gets done. And FYI - I claim experience, not expertise.
So, Jackflap, give yourself a pat on the back for misrepresenting someone's intentions almost as well as Proto did.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What is it you imagine I am claiming that you feel I haven't provided proof for. My opening piece an essay based on a compilation of different factors that many in the social sciences, historical and academic communities often discuss in similiar terms is just that promoted as an essay.
Sorry but that is simply false, you didn't show even one piece of corroborating evidence, you just gave your opinion and presented it as fact. That's ALL you did...
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As far as some questions members have had regarding the spread of Abrahamic religons as to whether violence was employed, history is the proof of that. It's a well known fact.
How you imagine this makes someone dellusional is really a mystery friend.
How?... in the simple fact that socialism/communism, an atheist doctrine, has existed for much less time than religion yet socialism/communism has murdered more people worldwide than religion has, and it brought more suffering to millions in gulags.
In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.
www.hawaii.edu...
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Actually once again the numbers are there to back up my significant conspiracy works. Presently with 523 Flags, and over 400 stars on the opening piece, with 198 pages in a thread that sees daily activity for well over a year now, you would be hard pressed to make the argument that I haven't laid out a significant case for my theories and that they aren't well recieved and popular to a level that in reality no conspiracy theory in the history of ATS has ever acheived.
Since when do stars and flags make any claim or theory true?... Again your ego showing it's ugly head. Stars and flags do not mean any one claim, or theory must be true...
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You asked where my emperical evidence is for some of my statements and beliefs and I told.
Ooooh, so your empirical evidence is "stars and flags"...ooookay....
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
All Roads Lead to Rome!
No, but the ones you are taking do lead you to the sanatorium.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Actually with over 50 years in power clearly some Cubans do, because while Fidel is a murdering tyrant, he can't run a nation of a million plus people single handedly.
Of course after disarming the people, and not even the regular police officers having weapons, plus a tyrannical system in which everyone is watched, most jobs are for the government and the government can take away the few things it allows if you "dare speak against the tyrannical government", plus a "guantanamo prison" type machine for Cubans if any of us demonstrate against the regime, which means castro's thugs will beat the living crap out of you, if you continue trying to fight for the freedom of Cubans you are sent to jail, and if you continue you can completely vanish as has happened.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Even many Cuban Exiles post Mariel Boat Lift are economic refugees and believe it or not, some actually don't enjoy having to perform in our system once they get here, knowing that failure to do so could mean having no place to live, and no rations, and to the chagrin and dismay of their relatives who often paid to get them here, turn around and go back.
Like many people in welfare in the U.S. there are Cubans who get acostumed to doing nothing, or almost nothing and as long as they snitch for the regime, they will get what they want.
I am a post mariel boatlift refugee, and I say you have no idea of what you are talking about. The regime has also sent pro-castristas to infiltrate the Cuban exile in Miami, and around the world
Pre Mariel Boat Lift immigrants are staunchly anti-Castro, and religious.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As someone who lives in Miami and is immersed in the Cuban Culture, believe me I am well aware of the demographics based on how Cubans themselves look at and describe things.
As a Cuban that I am, having family, and friends in Cuba, and many who have left Cuba, plus having visited Cuba and lived as a cuban again in 2000-2001 I am a lot more aware of the realities of what happens in Cuba, and what Cubans go through.
As it is I have an aunt living with us who is visiting from Cuba, she came to visit and see her daughter who left the island a year ago. About three years ago or so two other cousins also left Cuba, and they are working now in the U.S. and have no plans on going back to Cuba except to visit.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
There is no evidence found in modern times that periods of increased Earthquake Activity in the earth's past even came close to making a dent in the human race let alone wiping it out.
So there isn't any evidence that this could lead to DOOMS DAY.
Again you are wrong, there is ample evidence of entire civilizations and cities being completely devastated by natural events. There are hundreds of cities found under the oceans all over the world, and there is evidence of climate changes, as well as seismic and magmatic events causing devastation to past civilizations.
doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2007.06.001
Copyright © 2007 Elsevier Ltd and INQUA All rights reserved.
Extreme Nile floods and famines in Medieval Egypt (AD 930–1500) and their climatic implications
References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.
Fekri A. Hassana,
aInstitute of Archaeology, University College London, 31-34 Gordon Square, WC1H 0PY, London, UK
Available online 7 June 2007.
Abstract
Nile gauge records of variations in Nile floods from the 9th century to the 15th century AD reveal pronounced episodes of low Nile and high Nile flood discharge. Historical data reveal that this period was also characterized by the worst known famines on record. Exploratory comparisons of variations in Nile flood discharge with high-resolution data on sea surface temperature of the North Atlantic climate from three case studies suggest that rainfall at the source of the Nile was influenced by the North Atlantic Oscillation. However, there are apparently flip-flop reversals from periods when variations in Nile flood discharge are positively related to North Atlantic warming to periods where the opposite takes place. The key transitions occur atAD 900, 1010, 1070, 1180, 1350 and 1400. The putative flip-flop junctures, which require further confirmation, appear to be quite rapid and some seem to have had dramatic effects on Nile flood discharge, especially if they recurred at short intervals, characteristic of the period from the 9th to the 14th century, coincident with the so-called Medieval Warm Period. The transition from one state to the other was characterized by incidents of low, high or a succession of both low and high extreme floods. The cluster of extreme floods was detrimental causing famines and economic disasters that are unmatched over the last 2000 years.
www.sciencedirect.com
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Try not to let the boogie man get you man.
Try not to let something called EVIDENCE get on your way...
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
Well there you have it by your own statistics that communism barely kept pace with the killings in Judean/Chrisitan/Muslim nations for one century, add another 18 centuries and clearly Communism has not been the number one killer.
Nor does your article make an absolute statement on the one century body count, but simply states it 'appears'.
Continuing on with your split hair arguments, you asked where my empirical data is, for manipulation of religion by government. I told you where it is, and all you want to do is cry about stars and flags on a wealth of information you have never read.
I sure have published it though.
While once again misrepresenting my entire opening piece here in this thread.
Finally a simple google search on the phenomenom of Dooms Day Style predictions would lead you to countless papers, articles and studies on the subject.
Are you afraid to check?
When people start fearing to do their own research on things that are actually simple common sense you sure do have to wonder.
Oh and by the way prehistoric floods in Egypt obviously did not wipe out Egyptian culture let alone human life or all life on the planet earth.
You are grasping at straws my friend.
Well there you have it by your own statistics that communism barely kept pace with the killings in Judean/Chrisitan/Muslim nations for one century, add another 18 centuries and clearly Communism has not been the number one killer.
Nor does your article make an absolute statement on the one century body count, but simply states it 'appears'.
Continuing on with your split hair arguments, you asked where my empirical data is, for manipulation of religion by government. I told you where it is, and all you want to do is cry about stars and flags on a wealth of information you have never read.
I sure have published it though.
While once again misrepresenting my entire opening piece here in this thread.
Finally a simple google search on the phenomenom of Dooms Day Style predictions would lead you to countless papers, articles and studies on the subject.
Are you afraid to check?
When people start fearing to do their own research on things that are actually simple common sense you sure do have to wonder.
Oh and by the way prehistoric floods in Egypt obviously did not wipe out Egyptian culture let alone human life or all life on the planet earth.
You are grasping at straws my friend.
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
First off the bulk of Electric Universes criticisms are aimed at me personally and it's fruitless and not in the spirit of ATS to respond to those, his few criticisms based on the actual opening piece center around his love of religion, and a propensity to believe things that there is little to no evidence to suggest are real.
Second off Butterbones main argument which appears to be that the thread is simply offensive to the religious is contrary to some of his own posting history on the site, where he sites religion as the primary element of a few different societal constructs that have "pulled the wool over humanities eyes", which he shared as part of his response in Slayer69's thread Dance ATS dance you are being played.
However it's hard to in another thread he states that the entire history and advertised premise of the United States is a sham, one that he is teaching his sons to distance themselves from, as he does the same, yet in another claims that it's important to fight for the United States in war all the same.
So his posting history is a hodgepodge of back and forth one each side of issues, which based on his own words in this thread might be attributed to a love of arguing to argue and his study of debate tactics.
Finally saving the most important for last, I appreciate that you enjoy a great many of my posts and thoughts on other threads. I don't get any reward for that other than knowing many people do enjoy them. So I am sincerely appreciative and humble in that regard.
Yet I honestly think if you continue to familiarize yourself with my many writings on the site, that you will see I interject a peculiar yet real sense of humor in many of them.
Gnosticism, which sadly not everyone who thinks they know Gnosticism really knows since it is a religion that more or less died out a few hundred years after large elements of it where woven into the Holy Roman Bible by St Augustine of Hippo who started out life as a pagan Roman, then a Gnostic, and then the author of the revolutionary work City of God theorizing that a heavenly kingdom could exist with in the minds of those who believed in it while living in the City of Man, became the main constructs of the Roman Catholic religion in what is clearly a manufactured religion by committee as evidenced by the ecumenical councils that convened to write the Holy Roman Bible.
True Gnostic traditions are still being debated by many religious scholars today, I am in the camp that has Gnostics primarily as worshipers of nature, similar to the Druids.
The belief that the trees, and rocks, and streams, and bodies of water, and major elements of nature all have their own unique spirit and life force, that should be respected and revered, and can as result aide man in his own existence amongst them in the natural world.
In many ways I am a Gnostic, and I think it's a big mistake to confuse religion, a construct of priests and the state, with spirituality, ones own quest for understanding the nature of life and the universe and their own relation and place within it.
What we have seen here in this thread is a very small but vocal number of angry militantly religious posters and or posers who actually can't even abide by the constructs of their own organized religion as they seek to angrily defend and alternately promote it.
Quick to judge me personally for the opening piece in imaginative, angry and slanderous ways, they certainly have not mastered the premise of "Judge not, least you be judged" a main tenet of Christianity.
While claiming to be angry and offended, they certainly have not mastered the premise of "Judge not least ye be judged".
So here is the paradox, why should I or indeed anyone take their statements and religion seriously, when they themselves don't?
While they are using it all the while as an excuse to be angry and selectively rude.
The Christian religion probably more so than Judaism and Islam is written in fact in so many vague riddles and with such language, that it's led to hundreds of sects who really can't agree with one another precisely what it means, each having their own take on it.
Each often angrily insisting it is the correct and only interpretation and the definitive view of the religion, most using the religion itself as an excuse to attack and assail others, by singling them out, for defamation or the sword, or tedious attempts at conversion.
So while you like many others have your own individual take on what the religion really means, I really do urge people to not confuse religion with spirituality.
Spiritual people are more often peace loving, kind, thoughtful well spoken, open minded, fair minded, and decent.
Religious people are often anything but those listed above.
Bottom line here is that simply because one chooses to take offense to thoughts and opinions written by another, is no reason for people to not share their thoughts and opinions.
The few critics to this thread have rather than share their thoughts and opinions on the actual subject matter, largely focused on sharing their thoughts and opinions on me, and here on ATS where such things are frowned upon, I do find that to be suspect, and makes it much more unpleasant to focus in on what little actual topical substance to their arguments there is.
Meanwhile the vast majority of the posters to the thread, enjoyed and were not offended by the opening piece, the few that haven't have cited religious reasons as their main and often only reason for not agreeing with or enjoying the opening piece.
In conclusion while I listed several main elements in my opening piece that are strong factors in people embracing doom and gloom philosophies there is still no getting around that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have doom and gloom prophecies written into them, and are the final culminating act of these religions.
Arguing that religion isn't a main factor is actually as absurd as it is insane based on that very real and in black and white, and in the books reality.
Thanks.
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
First off the bulk of Electric Universes criticisms are aimed at me personally and it's fruitless and not in the spirit of ATS to respond to those, his few criticisms based on the actual opening piece center around his love of religion, and a propensity to believe things that there is little to no evidence to suggest are real.
Second off Butterbones main argument which appears to be that the thread is simply offensive to the religious is contrary to some of his own posting history on the site, where he sites religion as the primary element of a few different societal constructs that have "pulled the wool over humanities eyes", which he shared as part of his response in Slayer69's thread Dance ATS dance you are being played.
However it's hard to in another thread he states that the entire history and advertised premise of the United States is a sham, one that he is teaching his sons to distance themselves from, as he does the same, yet in another claims that it's important to fight for the United States in war all the same.
So his posting history is a hodgepodge of back and forth one each side of issues, which based on his own words in this thread might be attributed to a love of arguing to argue and his study of debate tactics.
Finally saving the most important for last, I appreciate that you enjoy a great many of my posts and thoughts on other threads. I don't get any reward for that other than knowing many people do enjoy them. So I am sincerely appreciative and humble in that regard.
Yet I honestly think if you continue to familiarize yourself with my many writings on the site, that you will see I interject a peculiar yet real sense of humor in many of them.
Gnosticism, which sadly not everyone who thinks they know Gnosticism really knows since it is a religion that more or less died out a few hundred years after large elements of it where woven into the Holy Roman Bible by St Augustine of Hippo who started out life as a pagan Roman, then a Gnostic, and then the author of the revolutionary work City of God theorizing that a heavenly kingdom could exist with in the minds of those who believed in it while living in the City of Man, became the main constructs of the Roman Catholic religion in what is clearly a manufactured religion by committee as evidenced by the ecumenical councils that convened to write the Holy Roman Bible.
True Gnostic traditions are still being debated by many religious scholars today, I am in the camp that has Gnostics primarily as worshipers of nature, similar to the Druids.
The belief that the trees, and rocks, and streams, and bodies of water, and major elements of nature all have their own unique spirit and life force, that should be respected and revered, and can as result aide man in his own existence amongst them in the natural world.
In many ways I am a Gnostic, and I think it's a big mistake to confuse religion, a construct of priests and the state, with spirituality, ones own quest for understanding the nature of life and the universe and their own relation and place within it.
What we have seen here in this thread is a very small but vocal number of angry militantly religious posters and or posers who actually can't even abide by the constructs of their own organized religion as they seek to angrily defend and alternately promote it.
Quick to judge me personally for the opening piece in imaginative, angry and slanderous ways, they certainly have not mastered the premise of "Judge not, least you be judged" a main tenet of Christianity.
While claiming to be angry and offended, they certainly have not mastered the premise of "Judge not least ye be judged".
So here is the paradox, why should I or indeed anyone take their statements and religion seriously, when they themselves don't?
While they are using it all the while as an excuse to be angry and selectively rude.
The Christian religion probably more so than Judaism and Islam is written in fact in so many vague riddles and with such language, that it's led to hundreds of sects who really can't agree with one another precisely what it means, each having their own take on it.
Each often angrily insisting it is the correct and only interpretation and the definitive view of the religion, most using the religion itself as an excuse to attack and assail others, by singling them out, for defamation or the sword, or tedious attempts at conversion.
So while you like many others have your own individual take on what the religion really means, I really do urge people to not confuse religion with spirituality.
Spiritual people are more often peace loving, kind, thoughtful well spoken, open minded, fair minded, and decent.
Religious people are often anything but those listed above.
Bottom line here is that simply because one chooses to take offense to thoughts and opinions written by another, is no reason for people to not share their thoughts and opinions.
The few critics to this thread have rather than share their thoughts and opinions on the actual subject matter, largely focused on sharing their thoughts and opinions on me, and here on ATS where such things are frowned upon, I do find that to be suspect, and makes it much more unpleasant to focus in on what little actual topical substance to their arguments there is.
Meanwhile the vast majority of the posters to the thread, enjoyed and were not offended by the opening piece, the few that haven't have cited religious reasons as their main and often only reason for not agreeing with or enjoying the opening piece.
In conclusion while I listed several main elements in my opening piece that are strong factors in people embracing doom and gloom philosophies there is still no getting around that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have doom and gloom prophecies written into them, and are the final culminating act of these religions.
Arguing that religion isn't a main factor is actually as absurd as it is insane based on that very real and in black and white, and in the books reality.
Thanks.
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