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Peace with Hamas means no Peace for Israel

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posted on May, 9 2011 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


On what basis do you project your claim that Hamas will radicalise Fatah. Fatah is a political orginization based on an ideology of arabic-socialism. That is generally it's founding principle and due to this it is rather secular especially in the context of existence in the Middle East where such thing can be rare. They are generally supported by secular left-wing members, I don't see how a political orginization like Hamas with a radical islamic base can radicalise a secular political party. Fatah has many Hamas militants and Hamas supporters jailed and detained in the West Bank in order to moderate Hamas and to advance it's goal of a just peace with Israel. Fatah see's Hamas as detremental to the success of the Palestinian people and detremental to Palestines overall image in the international community. On this basis I state the possibiity that Fatah will be able to moderate a continuosly weaker Hamas(not due to Israeli pressure but due to Gazan loss of support for Hamas). Fatah may even be able to durther reduce the decreasing rocket attacks(ever since 2008).


2008 8 deaths 2,048 rockets and 1,668 mortars
Total: 3,716
2009 0 deaths 569 rockets and 289 mortars
Total: 858
2010 1 death 150 rockets and 215 mortars
Total: 365
2011 1 January-March:[66][67]
61 Rockets + 132 Mortars
Total: 193

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Osama was never indited for the murder of 3000 inoccent civillians on the dreadfull day of September 11. As I said, I may not agree with their allignment to the fact that they see him as a martyr, however extrajudicial killing is illegal under international law- This gives them every right to formally condemn his assasination.- Even if they do condemn the killing of Osama it isn't detrimental to the peace process. I find homosexual behaviour wrong, however I believe that gays should be entitled to the same rights(wether it be legal unions or what not) that we are. Is my homophobic mentality detremental to gay rights? No.

Your whole argument is on based on fearmongering and frankly absurd speculation. Your assumption is that once they have declared Palestinian statehood- which has to firstly be approved by the security concil, if that fails they will go to the general assembely or the IJC- that they will start killing Jews. What factual evidence and proof do you provide that this will be the case. You also rely heavily on misinterperations of the failed Oslo Peace accords. They aren't suggesting creating a permanent unified government. They are suggesting that until elections they created a shared interim government.

I don't expect alot from you, but as a member of ATS you should be out to deny ignorance. Instead you blatantly are attacking anyone who disagrees with your conclusion as ignorant and making claims without providing substantial support, as well as de-flecting any possibility of an intellectual debate in using PA reconciliation to strengthen peace and play Fatah off against Hamas in the manner of moderating the radicalism that Hamas supports rather then forcing them into civil war. Reconciliation is important, you can't make peace with a people who are divided themselves.




posted on May, 9 2011 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


I see your point, but this solves nothing, it only makes things worse. If you had said "Perhaps you are right, but notice how similar this is to what Israel does in Gaza", it would probably have had more impact, and would have made for a better point.

Why can't we all just.. Get along?


With respect,
Eliad.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by Eliad
 



If you had said "Perhaps you are right, but notice how similar this is to what Israel does in Gaza", it would probably have had more impact, and would have made for a better point.

Why can't we all just.. Get along?


Because I don't believe they are right at all..
To use the history of jews in that area dating back 3 thousand years as a reason for their right to the land is ignoring the fact that the history of the area goes back a LOT further than that..
To use the holocaust as an excuse is even worse because the partition plan predates WWII..

Having said that I think myself and many others would be happy to see peace in the ME with Israel enjoying the land as it was originally intended pre 1967..



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by Pr0t0
 


Are you capable of understanding logic?

Hamas - the same government that for the last 3 months that has been raining missiles in southern Israeli towns, the same Hamas who controls the al aqsa brigades that were responsible for the bus bombing a month and a half ago, is all of a sudden worthy of Israels trust?? The same Hamas that is classified by western nations as a Terrorist organization? Is it really logical to believe that Hamas will not radicalize Fatah and the west bank, as opposed to being pacified?

You keep talking about "israeli crimes" which apparently in your eyes have been the worse in the last century (an obscene exagerration. More Palestinians for instance were killed by king hussain in september 1970 - black september -, than in all of Israeli history) yet you can barely gather anything more than the operation cast lead which in itself was a response to missile attacks on Ashdod and other southern Israeli towns, and the flotilla incident which occurred only because of turkish incitement by entering Israeli waters without permission. They have "humanitarian aid"? OK. All Humanitarian aid that goes into the Gaza strip first goes to the port of Ashdod to make sure there are no weapons being smuggled in. This has been standard procedure for years and there was no reason/justification to supercede Israeli/International law.

Everyday worse things happen around the world. As i speak, black animists in the southern Sudan (Darfur) are bing butchered and enslaved, again (most human injustices in the world today are perpetuated by Muslims) by the muslim arabs of the North Sudan....Yet the Palestinian issue gets around 10 times more coverage, and people never wonder "why"...as if the press and those who control the press werent deliberately manufacturing this anti-zionist/israel sentiment infecting the minds of the western world.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


What a totally zionist based bias you show in all matters relating to Israel and even international law..

Maybe read up on some of them laws Israel break daily..



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 





Even if they do condemn the killing of Osama it isn't detrimental to the peace process. I find homosexual behaviour wrong, however I believe that gays should be entitled to the same rights(wether it be legal unions or what not) that we are. Is my homophobic mentality detremental to gay rights? No.


I dont understand your logic. If you want to condemn the manner that they assassinated him....fine, although i already consider this to be counterproductive to palestinian interests..But adding "he was a religious warrior" that transforms the entire nature of the statement. It literally approves and agrees with what what he had done. It basically aligns Hamas with Osama Bin Laden and his tactics and why should this even be surprisng? Hamas has been conducting themselves like Al Qaida long before Al Qaida masterminded 9/11. Hamas than is ideologically akin to Al-Qaida, they espouse the same philosophy and indeed many Hamas officials have connections to Al Qaida...




which has to firstly be approved by the security concil,


If you had been following what Palestinian officials have been saying - that if the international community decides to delay the declaration of a Palestinian state beyond September, the PLO will go ahead and unilaterally declare a state without international approval, which is aganst the oslo accords.

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Your whole argument is on based on fearmongering and frankly absurd speculation


So, no, its not fearmongering, but a very realistic outcome if the PA decides to declare a state without Israeli cooperation.




that they will start killing Jews.


In the last month and a half a family of 5 was killed in Itamar, and Ben Yosef Livnat, the nephew of an Israeli Cabinet member were killed in the west bank. The Palestinian police in the west bank have done NOTHING about the murder of the Itamar family and in fact were involved in the murder of Ben Yosef Livnat... Now, if the PA goes ahead and declares a state i imagne Israels response will be anything but ammenable. Its hard to say what will happen. The PAs declaration of a state will require the IDF to leave the west bank...Would Israel agree to that? Unlikely. What about the 500,000 Jews already living in the westbank? Its really not fearmongering at all to suspect that this wold result in killing of West Bank Jews.




as well as de-flecting any possibility of an intellectual debate in using PA reconciliation to strengthen peace and play Fatah off against Hamas in the manner of moderating the radicalism that Hamas supports rather then forcing them into civil war.


Umm, anyone who disregards the religious element in Palestinian politics IS a total and utter moron. Otherwise he deliberately skews the issue to avoid the sensible conclusion; that Hamas, and Arabs in general (Since the Arab league pretty much directs the PA) are entirely interested in a) removing a Jewish state from Dar Al Islam - a concept that has been apart of Islam for the last 1300 years of its history - because Jerusalem, or "al Quds" t them is rightfully (in their eyes) Muslim land and in the middle of the house of Islam, from Turkey to Iran, Morocco to UAE. Islamism will not tolerate and Many prominent Sheiks and officials are on record saying this (Yusus Al Qaradawi for instance, who has a show on Al Jazeera) a "zionist" ie; Jewish state in the middle east. And b) Islam believes it is destined to conquer the entire world; either through conversion or submission to Islam. This has been the tone of Islams legal jurists, whethr Sunni or Shi'ite for the last 1300 years. It has not changed one iota. The only thing that has changed is western mans understandng of what Islam is and how it is fundamentally different from the western worlds paradigm.

And as for Democracy; anyone with a working brain can understand that Islam and democracy are ideologically antithetical concepts. Shari'a is the arm of Islam. Islam means "to submit" and people cannot submit unless it is made LAW. The Arabs are merely utilizing western ignorance/naivete to use democracy to install an islamic republic, similar to what alread exists in Iran. Look at Egypt if you doubt what i am saying. Early polls are showing that the Islamic brotherhood could gan 75% the vote...and if they are voted in "democractially", do you think they will give future voters the opportunity to vote them out? After they institutionalize Shari'a?
edit on 9-5-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
And this is my proof (as if anymore were needed)


"Soon after bin Laden's death was announced early on Monday, Hamas's government chief in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, said: "We condemn any killing of a holy warrior or of a Muslim and Arab person, and we ask God to bestow his mercy upon him."

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Hmmmmmm...So the very same Hamas that praises Bin Laden as a "holy warrior" is one that Israel should negotiate with...?? Even though this same Hamas has been reckoned as akin to Al Qaida in ideology and tactics? How can Israel possibly negotiate with the PLO now that Hamas and Fatah have "reconciled" their differences? This is merely the left hand clasping the right. Hamas has been the proverbial "bad cop" and the PLO the "good cop". And now that theyre united Israel is supposed to ignore Hamas' ridiculously outrageous ideology and vociferous rejection of a Jewish presence, let alone a state in the midst of Dar al Islam, and pretend that this wont lead to further concessions or possibly war down the road?

Anyways. Digest that statement of Hamas' government chief which came right after their making peace with the government in the west bank: obviously they havent changed their tune and have no intenton to.
edit on 7-5-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)


As an American who is about as far from Islam as one can really get, I wouldn't call Osama bin Laden a "holy warrior" (frankly in my opinion, anyone who kills for pay is nothing different from a mob hitman) but I agree with hte sentiment that he shouldn't have been killed. He should have been captured and brought to trial. Instead, the US slaked its ridiculous bloodthirst, made a martyr of hte dude, and had to hobble its own propaganda to try to nip that in the bud. Killing Osama was not the brightest move our military has made; he was high value.

Now, how can Israel negotiate with the Hamas / Fatah government? That's easily answered.

Stop being a pack of simpering infants, man up, and negotiate. Look, every day, all over the world, people negotiate with others with whom they disagree, who they dislike, even who they hate. I do it at work nearly every day when I have to work with the shift before me. The United States and Soviet Union, even at the height of hostilities, could still talk to each other and work out deals here and there. The Chinese and Japanese still talk.

Israel - and it's myriad sycophants on the internet - need to grow a pair and learn that negotiating with people you're not enamored of is just a goddamned part of life.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:31 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


It gets the coverage you mention becasue the conflict has been going on for over 60 years and is a tumour within the middle east, that radicalises many Muslims. You cannot as a democracy deny people both a nation and as citizes of your own country the full rights enjoyed by the majority and expect to receive little or no media, diplomatic, political coverage of this.

The conflicts you talk of are horrific, and should be confronted, but they are not being committed by the self proclaimed 'Oasis in the desert', 'shining beacon of the region'. It is the hyprocisy that is as galling as anything else.

If again this is a competition, clearly Israel have killed more Palestinians in just the last 10 years than what were killed in Black September, where between 1000-2000 conservative (from books on Jordan & the Palestinians) and 15,000- 20,000 (Yasser Arafat's claims), Palestinians were killed by Jordanian forces.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


Actually, it's been going on for much more than 60 years... Arabs have been murdering Jews because they were Jews ever since Islam started in the 7th century AD (with Muhammad slaughtering the Jews in Arabia)

In Israel, they count the people killed since 1860, so I guess that's one way to time the conflict....

The reason, IMO this gets coverage is because of the fact that the Arab world tries to deflect their own problems on Israel... i.e. if Israel won't exist, everything would be fine (which is total BS)

And as for your comment:


ou cannot as a democracy deny people both a nation and as citizes of your own country the full rights enjoyed by the majority and expect to receive little or no media, diplomatic, political coverage of this


I couldn't agree more, only it's just not true... most of the Arab population in the west-bank lives under the rule of the PA... not under Israeli rule... any grievances they have, they have their own elected government... The Arabs have been managing themselves since 1995 basically... Don't forget, they are not citizens of Israel, they never were... however, Arabs that are citizens of Israel (and they are 20% of the population of the country) do enjoy full rights... they have social security, health insurance and much much more... They also have members of parliament... mayors... judges etc... (and here I thought Israel was a "racist", "apartheid" state... hmmm)

There was a comment here by someone stating that Israel created Hamas... let me set the record straight... Hamas was founded in the 80's... Israel did not create it, but Israel didn't take any real steps to destroy it, it was thought at the time that they would become a counter-measure against the PLO... what a stupid, stupid, short-sighted mistake...

Let's face it... Hamas is a fanatic, religious organization - for them, Jews cannot live unless they are subject to the rule of Islam as dhimmis (look up that term... you'll see what it means), so, by definition, there cannot be peace with Hamas...



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:24 AM
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reply to post by ender_shadow
 


So when will Israel stop stealing land??



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


I'll answer with a question - when will the Arab world pay back Israel for all of the Jewish property they stole from the Jews? when will the Arab world pay restitutions for all the Jewish deaths they caused?

Oh, and as for stealing land - once you figure out that this is more a religious conflict than a territorial one, then we can discuss land... and facts remain - and I have stated them numerous times... but your mind is just not able to accept these facts...

What amazes me about you is your ability to pass judgement on a country you do not live in, on a conflict you do not face yourself, on a people you do not know...



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by ender_shadow
 


Great, spoken like a true zionist..
Israel will never stop stealing land..
They need to be stopped and IMO eyes are opening around the world..



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by ender_shadow


I'll answer with a question - when will the Arab world pay back Israel for all of the Jewish property they stole from the Jews? when will the Arab world pay restitutions for all the Jewish deaths they caused?


Look, it really sucks that Arabs killed Jews a thousand years ago.

It also really sucks that the Nazis massacred the Jews in Europe and forced them into Ghettos and deprived them of their human rights.

But that doesn't make it OK for the Jews to turn around and do the same thing to the Palestinians. Two wrongs don't ever make a right. And I'm Jewish, by the way.



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:54 AM
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reply to post by drwizardphd
 


They didn't stop killing Jews ever since Islam was conceived in the 7th century AD... and they were killing Jews in Europe long before the pogroms of the 19th century.

And no one is saying Israel doesn't have responsibility... but I bet I can agree with me that we don't shoulder ALL of the responsibility, that the other side does have it... And I wouldn't say what Israel does is even closely similar to what the Nazis did... That's going way too far... there are no death camps, no systematic killing of people... that diminishes what was done...

If you want close historic examples? look at Darfur, look at Rwanda, those are examples of Genocide... not Gaza or the West-Bank... being Jewish doesn't make you any more qualified here... do you live in Israel? have you visited? have you seen what I see living here?



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 02:26 AM
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reply to post by ender_shadow
 


I don't believe Hamas is innocent. Nor do I believe that what Israel is doing is comparable to what the Nazis did.

However, I just cannot bring myself to support Israel. Regardless of what has happened in the past, or the severity of the situation, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is wrong. There is no excuse for it.



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by drwizardphd
 


But that's exactly what you said, that Israel is "putting them into ghettos" and "denying them human rights", I'm not sure where you get your info from... but you're grossly misled and misinformed. I'm inviting you to come and see for yourself... I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised.

But the thread discusses Hamas and peace with Israel... and the fact that with Hamas there can't be peace... do you agree with that statement?



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 03:28 AM
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A few things, Ender...


There was a comment here by someone stating that Israel created Hamas... let me set the record straight... Hamas was founded in the 80's... Israel did not create it, but Israel didn't take any real steps to destroy it, it was thought at the time that they would become a counter-measure against the PLO... what a stupid, stupid, short-sighted mistake...


Not only did Israel not take steps to dismantle Hamas, but it actively funded and even at times armed Hamas - for exactly the reasons you noted, in the hopes that an Islamic movement would draw support away from the secular nationalism of the PLO.

if it's any consolation, it's this sort of thing that keeps me from believing that Israel is some sort of "evil mastermind" - in fact collected evidence shows that Israel is generally led by very, very stupid people, and the only thing they have going for them is that the largest military power on earth happens to be run by people who are even stupider.


Originally posted by ender_shadow
They didn't stop killing Jews ever since Islam was conceived in the 7th century AD... and they were killing Jews in Europe long before the pogroms of the 19th century.


Well, I don't really hate to burst your bubble, but... You're pretty much completely wrong on this - at least, as far as Islam goes. Yes, you can find some nasty things about Jews in the Koran; but only in the parts that are telling the story of, or relating to the wars fought in the Arabian peninsula. And there's a reason for this.

The Jewish rulers of Mecca and their allies around Hejaz were actively trying to exterminate Mohammed and his followers at the time. It's sort of like how the United States kept trying to kill off the Mormons, back in the day, or like how the Hindus of India very nearly eradicated the early Buddhists, or the Christian wars of Europe. No religious authority likes a successful reform movement, after all.

Outside of this context, Muslims had no quarrel with Jews or, for that matter, Christians. The assorted Caliphates were probably the safest place in the world to be a Jew during this time period, and more than a few rose to positions of political and scholastic importance. When the Euopean Christians went around torching Jews, Muslim rulers welcomed refugees in.

Were they full and equal members of society? No. However, that's an awkward criteria for the time period - "equality" didn't actually exist anywhere, after all.


And no one is saying Israel doesn't have responsibility... but I bet I can agree with me that we don't shoulder ALL of the responsibility, that the other side does have it...


Actually you DO frequently divest Israel of all responsibility and shove it all onto the evil dirty Arabushim at every chance you get. I have never seen you once accredit Israel with anything resembling responsibility for anything.


And I wouldn't say what Israel does is even closely similar to what the Nazis did... That's going way too far... there are no death camps, no systematic killing of people... that diminishes what was done...


You don't really know much about what the Nazis did then, do you? While yes, they did systematically eradicate 12 million people, roughly half of them Jews, there's more to it. There's the question of how the Nazis did this. Forty million Germans didn't just wake up one day and go "Hey, I hate Jews, let's get 'em!"

The Nazis had to inundate the German people with multiple levels of racist and cultural propaganda, first. The first step was to ascertain what was and was not "acceptably German." For example, Dadaist art was most decidedly "non-German" and was proscribed. Then this non-German stuff had to be attached to movements and philosophies and modes of thinking that were also "not German" - Communism, atheism, anarchism. Then these movements and philosophies had to be attributed to adherents. Such as Jews, Slavs, Roma...

See how this is working? It was a very complex system that, once it was warmed up and running, successfully convinced Germans that Jews were degrading Germany itself with their foreign philosophies and vulgar "art" and "music" (such as, Jazz - go figure). Once Germans were fairly certain that these "outsiders" were a threat to the national and cultural security of Germany (and other Reich nations) it was fairly easy to simply appeal to the baster biases and hatreds already latent in the culture - equating Jews and Roma to rats and disease, for instance - and get the populace to turn a blind eye to the deportations, the executions, the ghettos...

So when someone like you comes along, proclaiming how evil and stupid the Arabs are, and that they deserve no consideration, and all their deaths are always justified, or when an Israeli statesperson advocates deporting Israeli Arabs to "preserve the Jewish character of Israel," then how, exactly does this come across? The fact of the matter is, you don't need to be shoveling people into ovens to be compared to Nazis, because the Nazis were up to a lot of things besides stoking the furnace at Auschwitz.

As for your claim that such things "diminish" the Holocaust? Hardly! 12 million people were exterminated, there's no way to diminish that. When you say something like that, I get the notion that for you, the Holocaust is just something to trot out when you're losing an argument on the internet.


If you want close historic examples? look at Darfur, look at Rwanda, those are examples of Genocide...
not Gaza or the West-Bank...


Darfur is actually a low-scale provincial civil war being mislabeled as a "genocide" to fit the propaganda of America's religious right. The same religious right, mind, that is encouraging mass executions of homosexuals in Uganda.

But you're right. What's going on in Israel / Palestine Territories isn't genocide; it's ethnic cleansing. Some people confuse the two terms.


do you live in Israel? have you visited? have you seen what I see living here?


Ah, the final refuge of the defeated bigot; "Shut up if you don't live here!" Here's the thing. Just as I know for a fact that there are non-Americans who know more about how my country works than a majority of Americans, I'm pretty certain there's the same situation regarding Israel - hell, you barely have a grasp on your country's history, and there's not even eighty years worth of the stuff.
edit on 12/5/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)



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