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Bin Laden Death Reignites Debate Over CIA Tactics

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posted on May, 7 2011 @ 08:32 AM
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Just sharing what I thought this was a pretty decent report touching on and summarizing the key points of CIA involvement in the hunt for bin Laden. A good starting point for further research and investigation.

This goes to the debate in general over whether it's time to reign our government and agencies back in not that the main bad guy leader is dead. Repeal the Patriot Act. Do we continue to stop the programs and questionable practices put in place post-9/11, some of which have been reviewed and revised and some of which have remained in place.

[url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=136084698][Source AP/url]


At its core, the hunt for bin Laden evolved into a hunt for his couriers, the few men he trusted to pass his personal messages to his field commanders. After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, detainees in the CIA's secret prison network told interrogators about one of al-Qaida's most important couriers, someone known only as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. He was a protege of al-Qaida's No. 3, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.


I have to agree with these officers...there's so much more to it all than waterboarding, which is all that the news media and the general public seem to be able to latch onto sometimes. That and once in a while the black sites/prisons.


CIA officers involved in finding bin Laden said they are frustrated that the entire detention and interrogation program and the killing of bin Laden have been reduced to a debate over waterboarding.


This debate should be ongoing, and it probably is behind the scenes. A widely publicized event always brings it to the forefront again.




edit on 5/7/2011 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 7 2011 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


If I were in Guantanamo, being waterboarded tortured on a daily probably even hourly basis, I would tell the CIA whatever they wanted to hear, sign papers I didn't even know anything about. Why do people think that by torture especially waterboarding that significant authentic information is provided? I do no understand the tactics these CIA W@NKERS use, its inhumane and not worth anything.

They should be locked up for the crap they put people through.

It's serious nonsense.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:05 AM
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It’s really not the methods used that produce actionable intel. It’s the way the questions are put to the detainee and his responses to them. Waterboarding is just one way of putting the detainee through stress and see if he changes his answers.

If a detainee has his wits about him, he can give even the best Intel analyst conniption fits.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 


When was the last time any of us heard anything about Guantanamo? I can't remember anything recent!!! Torture especially waterboarding does not give creditable information. It does not work, like you said, if these people which are caught are great deceptors they will easily be able to fool even the most experienced torturer.

Torture and waterboarding is not one bit credible.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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When it comes to hunting down muslim terrorist scum, there is no rules. By whatever means necessary! Torture them, shoot them in their sleep, shoot them when their hands are up in surrender. Don't keep them alive unless they might have information, and shoot them the minute they've given up what they have. Islam is a cancer on the world and it's time we acknowledged that we're at war with them. The don't have a problem admitting to the fact they're at war with us. Listen to the cockroaches protesting in England if you don't think so. This isn't a new concept, this is what they've been about since the 7th century. Political correctness will be the end of the western world.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by moritz
When it comes to hunting down muslim terrorist scum, there is no rules. By whatever means necessary! Torture them, shoot them in their sleep, shoot them when their hands are up in surrender. Don't keep them alive unless they might have information, and shoot them the minute they've given up what they have. Islam is a cancer on the world and it's time we acknowledged that we're at war with them. The don't have a problem admitting to the fact they're at war with us. Listen to the cockroaches protesting in England if you don't think so. This isn't a new concept, this is what they've been about since the 7th century. Political correctness will be the end of the western world.


Are you for real?

How can you insult all those Muslims out there with what you have just said???
Do you condone the Muslims in places like Iraq and Afghanistan to shoot your US soldiers in their sleep, shoot them when their hands are up in surrender. I'll tell you what the cancer is, its your US Government who think they can go invading any country they wish without getting attacked back for something which is not justified in the first place. I'm from England, what 'Cockroaches' are you referring to???? Us Muslims? Clarify your pathetic little paragraph.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by moritz
When it comes to hunting down muslim terrorist scum, there is no rules. By whatever means necessary! Torture them, shoot them in their sleep, shoot them when their hands are up in surrender. Don't keep them alive unless they might have information, and shoot them the minute they've given up what they have. Islam is a cancer on the world and it's time we acknowledged that we're at war with them. The don't have a problem admitting to the fact they're at war with us. Listen to the cockroaches protesting in England if you don't think so. This isn't a new concept, this is what they've been about since the 7th century. Political correctness will be the end of the western world.


'Islam is a cancer'??? I'll tell you who the cancer is, it's your mum for giving birth to a stupid racist twat like you!!
You don't know what Islam is, youro too dumb to know, all you probably do is sit in front of you TV all day everyday watching all this anti-islam propaganda your US country feeds you and think you know what Islam is. It does not matter which religion it is, its a person or group of people which is classified as terrorists.

I think ATS moderators should move your comment, its proper pissed me off you racist scum.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


I don’t think they should be trying to reign in the CIA techniques such as enhanced interrogation and aspects of the patriot act. Just because the “main guy” is gone does not mean the threat has gone, if anything it has been temporally increased. The CIA are claiming the intelligence that eventually lead to the killing of OBL came from Guantanamo, it might have been a controversial way of going about things, but it got results.

Speaking of the CIA I have yet to read about SAD involvement in any of operation Geronimo, or the ISA.


edit on 7-5-2011 by kevinunknown because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by moritz
 



Originally posted by moritz
Islam is a cancer on the world and it's time we acknowledged that we're at war with them. The don't have a problem admitting to the fact they're at war with us. Listen to the cockroaches protesting in England if you don't think so..


“Islam is a Cancer”, in the UK the EDL, BNP and Combat 18 are all also cancers of our society. Islam is not a cancer, Islam is a beautiful culture that should be embraced, violent Islamic extremists yes they are a cancer but like I said so are these right wing nut jobs. You and your attitude are part of the problem not part of the solution therefore I have not time for you because I regard you as a much of a cancer as you regard Islam.


edit on 7-5-2011 by kevinunknown because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


I don’t think they should be trying to reign in the CIA techniques such as enhanced interrogation and aspects of the patriot act. Just because the “main guy” is gone does not mean the threat has gone, if anything it has been temporally increased. The CIA are claiming the intelligence that eventually lead to the killing of OBL came from Guantanamo, it might have been a controversial way of going about things, but it got results.

Speaking of the CIA I have yet to read about SAD involvement in any of operation Geronimo, or the ISA.


(emphasis added is mine)

Are you kidding me? The use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" is torture rebranded under a new name during the Bush administration. It was decided then that torture only includes techniques that lead to death or internal organ failure - so they are able to do everything up to killing you, or an organ.

Moreover, no proof has been brought to light that Osama bin Laden is actually dead - just the government's word up to this point.

Waterboarding, using dogs, sleep deprivation, etcetera, is absolutely no way to gain important information. Hell, in regards to sleep deprivation, after three days without sleep your mind operates the same way as someone legally insane - would you take for granted information given to you by an insane person?

Condoning torture tactics by anyone does not follow the guidelines of a moral republic, and the fact that legislation approves of it and our own secretive intelligence agencies use it is horrid.

What happens when these tactics are used on you, would you feed the interrogators information to end the pain or protect your family? Our government has the power to label you an "enemy combatant" without proof, detain you while ignoring habeas corpus and use "enhanced interrogation techniques" to gain further information. Sounds a lot like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia and present-day China to me - not a democratic republic.


edit on 5/7/2011 by Konah because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by moritz
 



Originally posted by moritz
Islam is a cancer on the world and it's time we acknowledged that we're at war with them. The don't have a problem admitting to the fact they're at war with us. Listen to the cockroaches protesting in England if you don't think so..


“Islam is a Cancer”, in the UK the EDL, BNP and Combat 18 are all also cancers of our society. Islam is not a cancer, Islam is a beautiful culture that should be embraced, violent Islamic extremists yes they are a cancer but like I said so are these right wing nut jobs. You and your attitude are part of the problem not part of the solution therefore I have not time for you because I regard you as a much of a cancer as you regard Islam.


edit on 7-5-2011 by kevinunknown because: (no reason given)


Your point is so true, I cannot beleive how cerain ATS members can be racist through their teeth..its a joke.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by Konah
 


Ok, let’s pretend for a moment for arguments sake that OBL was killed last week, we can get into that argument somewhere else.

For me I have know that Bush and co broke many law’s and re-wrote countless more to enable them to use their “enhanced interrogation” techniques or to call it as it is, torture. For me personally I have no objection to the use of torture to gain valuable intelligence where there is reasonable cause to believe that the subject is withholding information that could serve the states national security obligations. I can understand however how someone would disagree with me and find my view’s abhorrent I am not going to try to change your mind.

In this instance if we believe the official story (for the sake of this argument) then it is clear that the use of torture led to information that was of significant value to the states national security at the time. For this reason I think the use of torture was justified.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by Konah
 

In this instance if we believe the official story (for the sake of this argument) then it is clear that the use of torture led to information that was of significant value to the states national security at the time. For this reason I think the use of torture was justified.


For the sake of argument, this only shows that the use of torture was successful in this single instance.

Back to reality. But what about all the other "confessions" that turned out to be false, yet caused others to be detained, tortured, ad nauseam? If we are to believe the official story, then it proves only that eventually torture will bring about information that could be useful.

If you haven't yet, you should see how many detainees at Gitmo were actually charged. Secret prisons and torture are precursors to fascism and a totalitarian government, they deserve no place in America.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by Konah
 


Well the torture of KSM did have some results and other attacks have been foiled that have been accredited to information extracted during torture. Like I said however I am not trying to change your mind on this, I understand the moral and legal implications of torture I just chose to ignore them because I believe that a states national security more important.

If you say that in this instance it did produce results then these results can and probably have been reproduced many times over.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 


False confessions are both useless and dangerous, and torture facilitates these.

The only way you could sway my belief in abhorring torture is to provide solid proof that it works to bring to light invaluable information. And you can't. In the meantime, innocent men and women will continue to be tortured and Americans will continue to champion torture because they believe people deserve it, it can't happen to them, and it works.

In the meantime, some articles on how torture doesn't work and instead causes false confessions:

Abu Zabaida False Confessions
Former CIA officer says torture provides no meaningful, trustworth intel
Joint Personal Recovery Agency memo
Military Agency Warned Against Torture



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by Konah
 


I am not trying to change your mind, don’t try to change mine, all I am doing is stating my stance on this. I agree with torture under particular circumstances. This is not a debate this is just me stating a opinion.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 


I was simply providing you with information that shows what you believe is unreliable. There is plenty of scientific research that shows torture is ineffective when the goal is to elicit information, all at your fingertips.

I'm not trying to sway your morals, you've already condoned torture. I'm trying to bring you more information so you can make a more informed opinion, because your current opinion has been proven to be dangerous and ineffective.

I see our conversation is now over.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by Konah
 


My opinion is informed don’t worry about that. I appreciate your links but from what I have read torture under some circumstances is not only necessary but it works.



posted on May, 7 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 

Yeah, I tend to agree. By nature, the CIA has to be given a certain amount of free reign and latitude. Otherwise they are not effective. The same thing that makes them effective is also the thing that can make them dangerous if they go rogue. It's one of the tradeoffs.



posted on May, 8 2011 @ 03:26 PM
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Oh. Haha. I don't even want to tell you what my gut reaction to this was.

Cheney Calls CIA Probes an 'Outrage'


Former Vice President Cheney calls for the White House to stop investigating the CIA over enhanced interrogation techniques, saying agents should be 'decorated' after the killing of Usama bin Laden.

edit on 5/8/2011 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)







 
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