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guide to meditation from a Buddhist monk

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posted on May, 9 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 




Sure you have an instinctual drive that underlies the mind, but that too was created and shaped by your surrounding environment. We, as in the mind and body, are mere reflections of our surroundings, thus we are not independent of them.


There is not a single human born without the Nefesh (instinctual level of consciousness) because it is completely apart of our nature. Were born, and we lust, and that happens because the outer world is apart of the fabric of creation - and we contain within ourselves all the various levels in creation; inanimate, vegetable, animal, and man. The concept of Nefesh in Kabbalah is similar to "chi" or "prana" in other traditions. It is that vital level which peremeates all existence.



The story of The Garden of Eden pertains to this illusion of independent self as well, that is why Adam and Eve were "kicked out of the garden".

Actually, thats not quite the meaning. We were kicked out after we tasted of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, meaning duality, and thus the delusion that we "exist" independently, But that doesnt mean G-d didnt want us to have an independant sense of self. We ALL have an independant sense of self. Even the greatest Buddhists, Tzaddiks, etc, cannot communicate anything they know without being an independant consciousness capable of communicating something they inthemselves know. Adam and Eve got kicked out because they didnt combine this perception with the "tree of life" which stood in the CENTER of the Garden. In other words, we have to sacrifice our sense of self in service to the one true reality, but that doesnt mean we still dont have our unique potentials and abilities that are entirely unique and different from others. This too is special, and it is this aspect of he tree of knowledge which has to serve the tree of life.



is not true and if you look into some studies of behaviorism of animals you can see they also have they ability to recognize the "I exist" phenomena.


Let me expand on that statement. We can recognize our existance AND be able to COMMUNICATE it.

Now, i'll concede that animals might recognize and be perhaps slightly aware that they exist. Although it would be hard to definitively prove. But one cannot say more than this. And especially not be able to say animals possess an ability to communicate this conjectured perception of self cosciousness....

We are CLEARLY and undoubtedly the purpose of creation. That again is a major factor inhibiting the minds and perceptions of those who have knelt before the dogma of buddhism; that "purpose" is entirely subjective, and find it diffiucult to admit that G-d may infact exist and he may have infact gave his word in the form of the Hebrew Torah...

Buddhists who hear this, having found their "dharma" and thus ignore the feasibility of this situation, decide that they are beyond its importance. I think NO ONE is beyond the reality of G-d, especially a created being, like you, or I, or the Buddha.

And given the way Buddhists cling to every word of the Buddha, its hard not see him as some sort of god, akin to the way christians hold to every word of Jesus.




Again it may be more difficult for them, it may be that our level of consciousness is "stronger", or it may be that our minds cannot fully grasp their level of consciousness. This idea of animals being lesser in Buddhism started later on in the Mahayana school (larger vehicle) and did not apply in the earlier school of Hinayana (smaller vehicle) that the


No offense, but that idea may be a romantic "disneyesque" anthropormphic idea, but it is entirely fantasy, and based on fantasy, and has absolutely no reality in this world. What are animals, other than atomatons that do what the creator programmed them to do? What about us? We RULE over them, and rule over creation. The entire earth bears our signature and any person awake to this reality cannot possibly denigrate man to something qualitatively tantamount to a dog, or cat, or rat. That is just an insulting, and self deprecating delusion. I know its popular amongst those who deny realit as it actually is, and appears.

This is what i mean. Judaism and Torah acknowledges BOTH realities. The one Buddhists exalt - the infinite, and the one the hellenists pay attention to - the material, and real world. Judaism COMBINES both realitis into one. G-d is One in BOTH realms. This realm is NOT A mistake, like Buddhists or gnostics think, and they think that due to their limited human perception. They havent recieved a divine doctrine that clarifies the meaning of this reality. This is why study of the Torah and Hebrew is so crucial for ALL mankind, and not just Jews.




posted on May, 9 2011 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


It seems you unfortunately again have regressed into your diatribe of seeking to convert all of us to Judaism. I thought you may have moved beyond that but I guess not. The simple fact is that there are many paths to the same end, and being intolerant of one is only showing you have yet to see the end and thus the many paths. I do not label myself as a Buddhist, for, I see these truths in many philosophies and thus do not want to limit myself to just one. But Buddhism has offered me a much clearer path to these truths in that 'many of their schools of thought' are making no extraordinary claims of knowing the unknowable. They also do not seek to use fear or dictate absoluteness in their teachings, which is something that allows my mind to remain much more free and un-conformed.

Some Buddhists do idolize every word that was 'supposedly' spoken by the Buddha, as do Christians to Jesus, but this is wrong and both Buddha and Jesus repeatedly stated that salvation is found on ones own, not inside of their teachings. Their teachings are merely a guide. A good Buddhist or Christian, or for that matter Muslim, will not take every word of these 'holy' books as absolute truth, but rather use them as a guide to further search within themselves for the truth. The reason for this is that everything is in constant change and the absolute cannot be articulated or communicated with the human mind.

My favorite quote from the Buddha is, “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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Thanks for posting this.


I'm going to go shave my head and try it.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 





It seems you unfortunately again have regressed into your diatribe of seeking to convert all of us to Judaism.


Convert? No.... Im not a Jew and i have no plan on converting. But can non Jews learn from Judaism? The Dalai Lama is rumored to have said when a Jewish man went to him seeking wisdom:

Dalai Lama: are you Jewish?

Man: Indeed

Dalai Lama: You come from the most ancient wisdom...the source...you do not need to travel all the way here to seek the truth...you should return to your country and learn your religion well..Return if you feel the need...but only after you have done so

I think we can all learn something from this most ancient tradition, and indeed the most ancient religion on planet earth. There is something very unusual about the longevity and endurance of the Jewish people and their religion, and I think you would do well to heed the teachngs of its sages.

If the Dalai Lama really does regard the Torah as "the most ancient wisdm", he does so for a very valid reason. If he knows what hes talking about, he knows that the Torah and Hebrew language is literally G-ds mind in human language, told through the narratves of the Torah.

Im a Non Jew coming from a Christian background. I have a passion for religion in geneal, whether that be Bddhism, Hinduism, Taosim, or Western religions....I just found something altogether remarkable in the Jewish tradition. And it isnt simply the teachings of its Rabbis, but the incredible mystery of the Hebrew language. As long as mankind remains ignorant of it, this world will be so much less spiritualized. This language is a wonder. And indeed many believe - scientists - that all the secrets of reality are encoded in the Torah itself. Isaac Newton, Einstein are among those who spent copious amounts of time immersed in its study.

It is a downright travesty that this subject still remains so arcane, yet Buddhism and Hinduism is looked at thanks to massive popularization as the greatest wisdom traditions that mankind has.




I thought you may have moved beyond that but I guess not.


How on earth can i move beyond something that is undoubtedly true?




The simple fact is that there are many paths to the same end, and being intolerant of one is only showing you have yet to see the end and thus the many paths.


I agree with that. Im just irked, and slghtly offended by Buddhisms dismissal of G-d. Other than that i dont find anything immoral in it. All in all it is a great way to achieve what one seeks. I know one Buddhist, a follower of the Mahayana school and she is a profoundly compassionate and lovely women. I think she is a tremendous Chasi (pious person) and she deserves great reward for her labors in this world. She is building herself quite a heaven.




. A good Buddhist or Christian, or for that matter Muslim, will not take every word of these 'holy' books as absolute truth, but rather use them as a guide to further search within themselves for the truth. The reason for this is that everything is in constant change and the absolute cannot be articulated or communicated with the human mind.


No religion makes the knd of claims that Judaism does. True, Islam and Christianity claim to be absolutely "true", and all other paths as unequivocally wrong, and sinful, but Judaism goes even beyond these claims. Judaism claims and has always claimed that the 5 books of Moses - the Torah - is G-ds "blueprint" for creation. They say, and the Talmud - a 2000 year old work - claims that G-d looked into the Torah and created the world. This sounds lik pure myth, right? I would completely understand ones rejection of this claim. But when you actually begin studying the Torah - IN HEBREW - and you study the nature of the Hebrew language, its grammar, word roots, and than go deeper into the kabbalistic "spice of the Torah" - Gematria - it cant help but change your mind. You would have to be the most arrogant, and egotistically blinded person to not see this as definitive evidence for G-ds existence. There is no way that such a language could exist. The Jews make claims that can actually be backed up,.......and look at what their religion has done...More than half the worlds people have been affected by the teachings of Abraham and the Jewish/Hebrew tradition. There IS smething, historically speaking, completely unique about the Jews. And it has nothing to do with them persay, but their religion. Their Torah.




But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”


That is an incredibly wise teaching and is very "jewish" in character. I would not discuss Judaism if it did not agree with reason. I am led in my search for truth by nothing else but my reason.

Again, i dont mean to deprecate other tradtions. My desire is to weave together all these different paths with the core, and center, or in the Dalai lamas wording "the most ancient wisdom" in the world. Israel has since ancient times been called the "naval of the world", and Jerusalem, the "naval of the naval", and the Temple mount, and the Holy of holies the very spot that the spiritual dimension merges with the physical. In Samuel, when David buys the the treshing floor of Ornan, the spot where solomon built the temple, the Torah calls it a "threshing floor". This is the "threshhold" between two different realities.... and THIS IS WHY Islam, and Judaism (and Christianity) have fought for this one spot. All of reality is influenced by the structure that is built upon it. As is known, the Temples architecture reflects the creation in microcosm (if youre acquainted with kabbalah you wil understand how this is). When the Temple is built, and service resumed, every last bit of which with profoundly deep meaning, the minds of all people will be moved towards the creator because the creation in microcosm - the Temple - will create a sympathy towards the creator. This will merge both realities and the result will be an increased urge in the search for wisdom and truth in the world.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX
 


I have a few problems with Buddhism

First, not exhorting one to follow anything dogmatically is initself, dogmatic.

I do not think Buddhism doesnt have value because it does; particularly to Easterners, but this notion that Buddhism possesses the ultimate key to human salvation is just pure ignorance of other spiritual traditions; like Kabbalah for instance.

Buddhism thus seems to be the acme of human wisdom to end sufferring....It is not initself though recieved - Kabbalah means recieved in Hebrew - and thus is all over the place in its ruminations....

No spiritual system is as complete as a system as the kabbalah. It came from above and is the real deal. Anyone who has studied Hebrew thoroughly at the esoteric level cant possibly see greater wisdom in Buddhism than in the Biblical Hebraic tradition.

Buddhism destroys the world and the purpose the creator has in creating it. Buddhism sees it as nothing more than the projection of mind. Another major issue i have with Buddhism is its complete moral relativism. In Hanayana, it encourages disengagement; asceticism, and ultimately the approval of spiritual selfishness..In Mahayana, one which i particular find the most conscientious, you get a value system that parallels that of Judaism. It encourages social and communal betterment. The concept of the transmutation/clarification of emotion again jibes with the kabbalistic idea of Tikkun, which means the rectification of this world through performance of mitzvot (commandments - both those derived from Torah but more plainly anything the conscience shows to be right and just)..The worst and most gnostic of all though is vajrayana which sees everythng, despite the actual reality of the situation, as perfect the way it is. The so called "fasttrack"
to Bhuddahood.. This again is purely selfish and negligent of the way things actually are. And also avoids a solution.

But most of all, the thing that irks me most about Buddhism is its contempt for G-d. I say contempt because of their arrogance in asserting that even if he did exist, hes not relevant. What kind of attitude is that? What spiritual arrogance!

Buddhism although sincere in its desire to help others also has this subtle demonic desire to elevate and deify man as god, which indeed in tibetan buddhism is a common title for confident and succesful men. This may be why Buddhism is so popular amongst the elite. It appeals to their arrogance.

G-d exists. And his word is the Torah. This can be discerned when one studies this remarkable work at the esoteric level. Since this is true, man must realize that G-d gives us te choice to elevate this world by inclding him within the very fabric of creation through ACCEPTANCE of his Malkhuth - his kingship - over every soul. Because man includes all the worlds within him, when he accepts G-d, G-ds presence (His shekinah) descends and enters the lower world. This literally unifies the two disparate realities of spirit and matter. Some Buddhism cannot do. Buddhism may be practical, and may help one find that bliss he seeks, but Buddhism in the end if it chooses to ignore the reality of the creator is selfish, and on a level beneath that of Judaism which conversely seeks to unite the created world with its creator. The universal man - Adam - with G-d.




There are many forms of Buddhism that stray very drastically from the purpose of Buddhism, which is to reach enlightenment by relieving oneself of all attachment. Just like in all major religions cultural values seep into the religion and distort it.

Beyond the original teachings of Gautama Buddha, the most advanced version is Chan buddhism, more commonly known as Zen.

You talk about the fact that dogmatically declining dogma is dogmatic. If you look into the wisdom of Chan Buddhism the paradox is one of the major mental tools of seeing truth. As the heart sutra says Form is void and void is form. This is not only metaphoric or meta-physic, this is training the mind to read between the lines of reality.

Buddhism also does not decline the existance of God. What it implies is that God is not Omnipresent, and is not the ultimate of ultimates. Buddhism implies the that there is something beyond God, which is supreme enlightenment, or the re-unification of Humans, God and the void.

Chan Buddhism is also a diverted form of Buddhism, but in this case it was unified with a very fitting system of thought, which is Taoism. The Tao is the void - of which God was created. If I am not mistaken, in jewish mysticism this also is a debated subject. The fact that God did not create itself but instead was born out of the void, where it must again return.

The goal in Buddhism is the return of God to the void - or the splinters of God which we Humans represent as boddhisatvas.

To worship a God is to move away from ultimate truth.
Jewish scholars claim that man cannot know God. Buddhism claims man does not need to know God, since god is not the ultimate truth.

Ill try a metaphor to help you understand - think of the universe as an infinitely large sphere, the earth an infinitesimally small object in this sphere. The Abrahamic God is represented by the theoretical outline of the Sphere or even, if you want, the creator of the sphere. Buddhism implies that beyond the sphere, beyond what created the sphere, beyond all dimensions, beyond heaven and hell, beyond creation, even beyond infinity itself is the ultimate truth that not even God has control over.

Ill leave you with two quotes. The first from Hui Neng, a patriarch of Chan buddhism:

Neither is there Bodhi-tree,
Nor yet a mirror bright;
Since in reality all is void,
Whereon can the dust fall?

the second is the prajnaparamitra mantra:

gone, gone, gone beyond, gone beyond the beyond, ultimate wisdom - so be it!

edit on 9-5-2011 by fedeykin because: typos

edit on 9-5-2011 by fedeykin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 09:54 PM
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And in reply to th thread.

In praise of Buddhism, i can honestly say that the more i read of it the more psychologically deep it really is. Buddhism, in terms of psychology can be very useful, so in this sense it gives alot to the world and i wouldnt at all expect for Buddhism or any other religion to "capitulate" before Judaism, as if Buddhism were useless. Maybe some Jews think that, but I do not, and cannot. I find beauty in all religions; in the native american flute with its incredibly moving tone, and in Buddhism with its incredible depths and ruminations into the soul or "mind" as it prefers to call it..... I think Sufism has many beautiful aspects and likewise in many forms of Christian mysticism....

I really do respect the diversity in religion on the earth and i wouldnt want to change that. I just think in terms of an explicit teaching that pertains to all mankind equally, and which possesses eternal meaning, both to this physical and spiritual world, the Torah (which means "instruction") stands alone.

Eventually mankind will come to this understanding.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 09:55 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Well I would really be interested in seeing this Dalai Lama thing you are talking about. I have often heard him tell Christians and Jews to return to their own religion, but mostly out of respect and tolerance for the religions and moreso out of a desire not to create conflict between Buddhism and these Abrahamic religions who are so prone to conflict with each other. It would be amazing to me that he would say Judaism was the FIRST GREAT "ancient wisdom" being he lives in the country where that actually occurred, being the Vedas of Hinduism.

And again! Buddhism does not dismiss the belief in an absolute creator being, God, they just do not address it because they realize the infinite cannot be understood by the finite. Their objective is not to make metaphysical or extraordinary claims, rather only that which can be verified by us. That is why Albert Einstein made the statement that Buddhism is the most compatible with science.

Lastly, this is a thread pertaining to Buddhism! Why do you always come into these threads and change the topic to Judaism?! If you say that you sincerely seek to find unity in these religions then that is a noble cause but start your own thread! I'm sure many people would be interested in debating or conversing upon such a subject.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by fedeykin
 





known as Zen.


And this is the Buddhism that most attracts me. It also regarded as the least idolatrous. Or probably devoid of idolatry in general.




Buddhism also does not decline the existance of God. What it implies is that God is not Omnipresent, and is not the ultimate of ultimates. Buddhism implies the that there is something beyond God, which is supreme enlightenment, or the re-unification of Humans, God and the void.


Well than Buddhism DOESNT believe in G-d, because G-d as the Torah speaks of him is the creator, sustainer and total reality of ALL THAT EXISTS, and yet even BEYOND. This idea is described as panentheism - G-d is in the world, but also outside and beyond it.

Now, as for this profoundly idolatrous, originally gnostic idea of G-d being an "archon" - ie; a reality created by the human mind which "creates" the outer world we see.....that is complete and utter hogwash, and untrue...and also ridiculously irrational...

Do you know the meaning behind the form of the human figure? Or the sheer complexity and wonder in its fluid working? aA buddha is BEYOND this??!! Do you see how ridiculously inane that idea is? G-d is one, as Torah teaches. He is one even though he manifests himself through nature, as Elohim - law and order, and the eternal, יהוה. This is what the Shema Means: שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד. Shema, "hear", means understand. Its a calling to the mind to understand. Yisrael is the "higher" name of Jacob. Kabbalistically Jacob refers to the lower outer emotions which lead to speech (hence Jacobs first wife, Rachel, was buried on the "crossroads" ie, between two worlds - the inner and the outer) while the higher name which "fought with divine beings and prevailed" refers to the inner level of emotion which influences the mind. Yisrael is the soul of creation, and hence the part of ones soul which needs to be called with "shema" to understand....Adonai ( יְהוָה) is Eloheinu (אֱלהִים). This line basically says the eternal one, the being of all, is "our G-d", is present in nature (Hateva, the Hebrew word for nature, has the same numerical value as Elohim - law and order) and the final line יְהוָה אֶחָד Adonai Echad, means YHVH is all there is. He is everything. This world, absolutely everything. Elohim is merely the "garment" in which He reveals himself.




The Tao is the void - of which God was created


And so we return to the pagan dualistic doctrine of "god" being born from the womb of rhea....The "void" being the feminine, and "god" as in the G-d i worship, being Uranous of Greek mythology. This is all ancient stuff and clearly Taoism etc inherited these ideas of G-d from the ancient middleeast.

First, G-d is beyond ALL conception of male or female. The reason why the Torah refers to him in the masculine mainly is because G-d relative to man is ACTIVE, and thus "masculine", while the creation, man, is feminine - passive. We RECIEVE from G-d, and so our relationship with him is completely that of a wife to a husband, or a child to his father. G-d chose to reveal himself to us as such. He is the one who uses Elohim and YHVH, his two main divine "names" (modalities) to relate with mankind. But make no mistake, the creator and G-d of the bible is beyond all conception or limitation and gender - a concept he created, is not applicable to Him. He is called by the Kabbalists simply as "ein sof" - without end. the infinite.



posted on May, 9 2011 @ 11:23 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 



It would be amazing to me that he would say Judaism was the FIRST GREAT "ancient wisdom" being he lives in the country where that actually occurred, being the Vedas of Hinduism.


Righttt...Are you not aware that civilization and thus religion grew out of mesopotomia?? And where was Abraham from? Ur Casdim - Ur of Chaldea, which is a city along the Tigris/Euphrates.

Whether or not you want to admit that Judaism, that is, the Torah of Moshe truly does contain the greatest and most ancient wisdom, atleast understand that the men who lived in modern Afghanistan (meaning they arent "hindu") and the vedas they wrote were written some 1500 years after the great epics of Sumerian/Akkadian literature, and thus after the time of Abraham (who lived 400 years before the first samhitas were written)...

This psuedo-intellectual, anti-scientific notion (since it conflicts with archeological evidence) that all religion derives from Hinduism is simply the wet dream of Hindu/Buddhist lovers who cant deal with reality as it is.




If you say that you sincerely seek to find unity in these religions then that is a noble cause but start your own thread! I'm sure many people would be interested in debating or conversing upon such a subject.


I think i will do that.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


"Righttt..." I could go without the arrogance, thanks.

Where is your evidence and sources? You claimed the Dalai Lama said Judaism is the "Greatest ancient religion", where is your evidence? That is a extraordinary claim that would shock many Buddhists. Why do you always make extraordinary claims and then refuse to address them when you are challenged? Where are the sources and evidence? Or are you making this up to benefit your argument for why we should all convert to your religion? You should be aware that you are doing Judaism a great disservice by going around and trying to convert people with these erroneous claims, it is my understanding that they strictly ask their followers to not take part in such activities.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 



"Righttt..." I could go without the arrogance, thanks.


Im sorry about that. Its just that your idea of hinduism being the most "ancient" religion isnt factual. Anyone who has studied archeology/anthropology would know that civilization, and thus religion grew out of the Middle East; Mesopotamia. This is both what the bible says, and what archeology has educed.

The most ancient civilization is Sumer, along a stretch of land between the Euphrates/Tigris rivers towards the Persian Gulf. Here arose the oldest cities manknd knows of; Eridu, and Ur, which is just south of the Euphrates.

If you follow the contempoary understanding in the development of civilization, you get this(from wikipedia):

Late Chalcolithic 4000 BC - 3300 BC Ghassulian, Uruk period, Gerzeh, Predynastic Egypt
Bronze Age
(3300 BC - 1200 BC) Early Bronze Age
(3300 BC - 2000 BC) Early Bronze Age I 3300 BC - 3000 BC Protodynastic to Early Dynastic Period of Egypt
Early Bronze Age II 3000 BC - 2700 BC Early Dynastic Period of Sumer
Early Bronze Age III 2700 BC - 2200 BC Old Kingdom of Egypt, Akkadian Empire
Early Bronze Age IV 2200 BC - 2000 BC First Intermediate Period of Egypt
Middle Bronze Age
(2000 BC - 1550 BC) Middle Bronze Age I 2000 BC - 1750 BC Middle Kingdom of Egypt
Middle Bronze Age II 1750 BC - 1650 BC Second Intermediate Period of Egypt
Middle Bronze Age III 1650 BC - 1550 BC Hittite Old Kingdom, Minoan eruption
Late Bronze Age
(1550 BC - 1200 BC) Late Bronze Age I 1550 BC - 1400 BC Hittite Middle Kingdom
Late Bronze Age II A 1400 BC - 1300 BC Hittite New Kingdom, Mitanni, Ugarit
Late Bronze Age II B 1300 BC - 1200 BC (Dark Age, Sea Peoples)
Iron Age
(1200 BC - 539 BC) Iron Age I
(1200 BC - 1000 BC) Iron Age I A 1200 BC - 1150 BC Troy VII, Hekla 3 eruption
Iron Age I B 1150 BC - 1000 BC Neo-Hittite states
Iron Age II
(1000 BC - 539 BC) Iron Age II A 1000 BC - 900 BC Neo-Assyrian Empire
Iron Age II B 900 BC - 700 BC Kingdom of Israel, Urartu, Phrygia
Iron Age II C 700 BC - 539 BC Neo-Babylonian Empire

Now, i am aware that Hinduism makes some ridiculously fantastical claims. These shold be regarded the same way we regard Egyptian/Sumerian pre-civilization claims; as myth, and NOT actual history. Myth of course probably has a more esoteric/allegorical rather than a concrete physical meaning.

The maturity in the Indus Valley civilization (although little evidence exists today, far less than exists in Middleast/Egypt) was 2600 BCE - 1900 BCE. Conversely, Sumerian/Akkadian and Egyptian maturity occured between 3000 BCE - 2200 BCE. The indus valley civilization, the ancestors of todays hindus, thus was a LATER development in civilization, and thus religion.

Link




Greatest ancient religion


No, i said "most ancient wisdom". I dont know if this is indeed a real statement of his. Its in the book "letters to a Buddhist Jew", and it was reported by a Buddhist Jew. Why would he lie?




That is a extraordinary claim that would shock many Buddhists.


Why should it be shocking? If your an ignorant buddhist submits blindly to every word said by Buddhist sources, than yes it would appear to be "outrageous". But if youve studied other religions and have a knowledge of basic archeology/anthropology you would understand that that statement of his is perfectly reasonable.



Or are you making this up to benefit your argument for why we should all convert to your religion?


Did i not say earlier that Judaism doesnt seek converts? I read Buddhism too. I read about everybody being our "mother and father", even animals and plants..... Buddhism makes some wonderfully counterintuitive and frankly illogical claims, and it amazes me while i read this that so many will just blindly agree with what theyre reading, thinking their being edified.. They are incapable - people with scant knowledge of religion/mysticism in general - of forming an objective opinion about these claims made by Buddhists.

Dont get me wrong, there is much good, but there is also a great deal of fanaticism and dogmatism, of couse, like all religions. My issue is this belief that Buddhism is "beyond" other religions, because they are "secular" and non-religious. What is religion? According to the latin meaning of the word, it means "worship of the sacred". ANYTHING one holds to as true is a religious conviction.. Thus, Buddhism is a religion, albeit, very different from Abrahamic religions and also slightly different from Hinduism. But nonetheless it is a religion.

For intance, why should evil people deserve our compassion? You read this and think "what a wonderfully true idea"... I read that and think that is completely fantatical. Fanatically one way - of only showing compassion. Bearing in mind that we are not G-d, and nor is the Buddah, all people are subject to the divine Law of Elohim. So anyone who sins in this world will be punished in the next. This is a basic idea even found in Buddhism. We create our own realities. Buddhism assumes this to be just a natural thing, without a creator having established this principle. Judaism on the other hand, and all Abrahamic religions acknowledge based on inference that a G-d established and designed the world the way it is. So, when one sins, he brins punishment upon himself. So back to my original statement. Should evil people deserve our compassion? I would say. They have acted wrongly, and wickedly by profaning the natural order of creation. If its in their "ignorance" that they act thusly? Fine. Should we just leave them be to continue their evil actions? NO! OF COURSE NOT! That goes against basic human reason. We should punish them according to the law. And the punishment they recieve HERE, is in anycase the punishment they will recieve when they die. It is merely mankind assuming th RESPONSIBILITY to act as the creator acts. To be as G-d. To imitate his attributes. Just as he is just, so must we be just.

Now of course every situation is unique. Not everyone should be judged in the same way. We have to take into account circumstances. A first time offendor of theft should not be dealt with as harshly as a repeat offendor. One who kills in self defence should not be penalized, whereas one who killed with preknowledge and malice should recieve the death penalty.

I dont man to say that in a buddhist world law wouldnt apply. Obviously, anyone with a shred of sanity understands that there are major civic repercussions if there arent penalties for crimes against man or the state. But my exampl also applies to the personal sphere. If i know someone is a bad person, and he lets say wants me to lend him a few bucks...What would the Buddhist response be? An indiscrimate Ok? All people without question deserve sympathy? No. I will not enable this man to further hurt himself or others, and infact showing severity in this circumstance is really an expression of kindness.

Thus, acts usually thought of as good or merciful, can sometimes be bad. Whereas acts thought of as severe can infact be exceedingly good.




You should be aware that you are doing Judaism a great disservice by going around and trying to convert people with these erroneous claims


What erroenous claims? I have never said i am trying to convert people. Am i expressing my own views, which are themselves based on Judaism/Kabbalah? Yes. Do i say things i shouldnt say? Yes. Im human, i make mistakes. But i dont think i am doing Judaism any disservice at all. I am sincere and honest and really do try to discuss these varying things...When i discuss Buddhism for instance, and when i have a criticism, i have to express my own view which in itself is based on Judaism. Would it be wiser for me not to mention Judaism at all? Pretending that these views i have are entirely my own, without being inspired from a different source? No.. I think its right that i mention Judaism..Cause that is what i believe and I think it is much more logical/reasonable than either Buddhism or Gnosticisim is.




it is my understanding that they strictly ask their followers to not take part in such activities.


Im not Jewish. And first, it is one thing trying to proselytize, by saying "Allah is G-d and muhommad is his prophet", which initself is senseless dogmatism, and an entirely different thing from disagreeing with a point of view and expressing your own. I am not involved in proselytizing. I am merely stating my beliefs in a reasonable manner WITHOUT resorting to strictly religious dogmatic views. Notice how i criticize ideas like indiscriminate compassion? I think that is entirely wrong. And i try to explain why that is wrong by offerring another view, which just so happens to be based on what Kabbalah/Judaism teaches.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


There is one argument I like to rely on when people of Abrahamic religions claim that God cannot be understood. This argument is that everything that their religions are based on and rely upon for the word of God is written by humans. This is also a paradox, and this time the paradox is not there as a training tool for the mind.

If it is true that a human cannot understand God, or be one with God, then a human can also not write the truth of God into a book, or teach it to someone. This undermines Judaism, and pulls the religion out from its roots since it implies that any person, be it Abraham, Moses, Jesus or Mohammad that claims to have received the truth from God can not in fact have received the truth, since they would be incapable of understanding the truth.


On a different, personal note, it also strikes me as futilistic to claim there is a conscious being that is interested in controlling humans and having them worship it. Just this raises so many questions that are not answered in the religious texts, such as what does God get out of us worshiping it? Why would the creator, an omnipresent omnipotent being care to be worshiped? If God has a plan, why not just enforce it through sheer force, God is omnipotent and omniscient after all?

The only answer is that there is something out of whack. And that is either that there is a God, and it is far from being omnipotent or omni-anything, and cares because it feeds off of our worship. Or god does not exist in the form that it is presented in the religious writings.

Either way, ultimate wisdom and ultimate truth are to be found in this universe, and humans are capable of achieving it, to believe otherwise is to limit yourself. And to limit yourself is exactly what religious institutions that gain political might off of their herds want.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 



For intance, why should evil people deserve our compassion? You read this and think "what a wonderfully true idea"... I read that and think that is completely fantatical. Fanatically one way - of only showing compassion. Bearing in mind that we are not G-d, and nor is the Buddah, all people are subject to the divine Law of Elohim. So anyone who sins in this world will be punished in the next. This is a basic idea even found in Buddhism


I am not sure what kind of Buddhism you have been reading about, but (once again) in Chan Buddhism it is implied that good and evil do not exist. Good and evil are creations of the human condition. Many people believe in good or bad karma, the fact is there is no such thing, there is only Karma - the passing on of energy.
This is easily proven when shown that what might be good for one person, can be bad for another.

Compassion is more of a means to an end. Since the only way for the ultimate enlightenment to ever happen, is if all living beings reach enlightenment, this is the ultimate goal of the Buddha. Therefore, compassion is a necessary tool for this to be able to happen.

Evil people are also potential Buddhas, all living beings are and therefore deserve compassion.

If your interested in this take on the subject, read the story of Amitah Buddha



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 




What erroenous claims? I have never said i am trying to convert people. Am i expressing my own views, which are themselves based on Judaism/Kabbalah? Yes.


Being that this is a thread on Buddhist meditation I would say you are in fact trying to spread the word of Judaism, thus convert, since no one brought up Judaism but you. But I feel bad enough that I took part in derailing the OP's thread, so like I said before make your own thread on this subject, of which is the oldest religion/civilization, and I would happily contribute.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by fedeykin
 





This argument is that everything that their religions are based on and rely upon for the word of God is written by humans. This is also a paradox, and this time the paradox is not there as a training tool for the mind.


Have you studied Kabbalah? Forget what you think you know about so called "Abrahamic" religions. If you havent studied Kabbalah you dont understand a thing about the Hebrew bible and thus your criticism is based on the same cliched notions popular amongst new agers that the bible is all "stories" ie; simplicitic and thus irrational. The irony is that belief is based on a simplistic understanding of the incredible depth of the Bible. I guess ou could count it as G-ds humility that it can come off to the ignorant as nothing but "stories"

First, the entire bible cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of Hebrew.... and did the early Christian fathers seek to teach their followers the Bible in Hebrew? Or did they pass on the "new testament" in an entirely different language(Greek)? Thus permanently distorting the nature of the bible? Theres actually a Jewish Midrash (mystical homily) from around 2000 years ago that describes the translation of the Torah into Greek (which occurred in the 3rd Century BCE by Ptolemy, forcing the Rabbis to translate it) as causing the world to go dark for 3 days. This btw is typical of Jewish Rabbinic writings. People read this and think the same ignorant things they think about the bible; thats its just a "story". Its sheer BRILLIANCE is that it deliberately cloaks esoteric teachings in physical symbols. The Torah as i said earlier is the blueprint of the world. Thus, going "dark" for 3 days means that 3 levels or 'worlds' of meaning were lost in translation. All that can be conveyed is the simple meaning. But the esoteric - which involves analysis of Hebrew words, roots, gematria, comparisons, etc is completely lost. In Biblical hermaneutics, these 3 levels are the Resh, Dalet, Samech of whats called PaRDeS (pronounced like "paradise"). Pesht, the first letter in this acronym means 'simple'. The other levels are allegorical, homiletical (through comparison with other verses) and the esoteric.

The Greeks ie; the "christians" who formed the new testament DELIBERATELY conveyed the bible to the world in Greek so people would remain ignorant of the deptha and mysteries of the Torah in its Hebrew language...And it appears to b still very effective today. I say something about the bible any completely ignore it, spouting back some trite budhist 'logic' which is still focusing on the world in the Buddhist mindset.

Get this through your head. The Bible is ESOTERIC. It is entirely allegorical, in every single word, story, and event. Not even things like listings of places, or names, or specifications for ritual, or clothing are accidental, but incredibly deep. It startles me when i learn and i continue to learn about how wonderously deep the Hebrew Bible is. What an insult to yourself to even comment on it! Obviously you say these things in your ignorance but the truth is just so powerful that to me and anyone who actually understands the bible, and has learned Hebrew and been initiated into its secret teachings, what an "ass" you make of yourself by thinking it is a bunch of simple stories.




And to limit yourself is exactly what religious institutions that gain political might off of their herds want.


Right..And Buddhism desnt exercise any political clout? You realize there is no religion which exercises more influence over the UN than Buddhism. Look at lucis trust for instance. This is the official spiritual body of the UN, and it ws started by Alice Bailey whos personal Guru - Djwal Khul - was a deceased Buddhists "master"...Whether or not Buddhists agree with theosophy, the fact is Theosphy is mostly based on Buddhist ideas.

Or look at movies like Tron and Avatar which are laden with Buddhist ideas. Is that not undermining the personal beliefs of others?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 


I dont agree with this idea that threads have to stay entirely on topic. If im talking about something "else" that is still initself connected to the main theme of the thread than it is not going off topic. But here i admit i derailed the thread and i apologise.

In anycase, the point of this thread was for people to watch the videos on the first page. My discussing Buddhism in relation to Judaism thus is not going to effect the purpose of the thread.

Also, i already said im not Jewish. Im not a "convert" to Judaism. When you say "convert" it creates the impression that i want you to convert formally to Judaism, which i obviously dont want, otherwise I myself would convert.

Examining Buddhist ideas in relation to Judaism doesnt mean you have to convert. You can take from where you feel, and if it makes sense to you - and you better be sure youre not blinding yourself to a truth by the feeling of just wanting to be "right" - you can accept it.

I know plenty of people who take an interest in other religions but still hold on to basic Jewish teachings. I consider it a merit to not hold on to any teaching with complete submission.

Finally, and i think i agree with Jung here, i think people should stick to their ancestoral traditions. Westerners who fly towards Buddhism/Hinduism usually do so because theyre ignorant of their own religion. This is particularly true in the case of American Jews who more than others have taken an interest in Buddhism (thus showing the spiritual 'strength' or longing for meaning that is typical of the Jewish person. They werent educated in their Torah, and being born in america and subjected to its materialist culture they sought greater purpose in life in the only religion that is looked at as 'deep'). Jung thought Christians should stick to Christianiy, Muslims to Islam, and Easterners to their ancestral beliefs. Now, of course there are souls who are more inclined to a different religion, but alot of the time their trek to India happens because they know nothing about Christianity, or Judaism.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 08:42 PM
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posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by fedeykin
 





This argument is that everything that their religions are based on and rely upon for the word of God is written by humans. This is also a paradox, and this time the paradox is not there as a training tool for the mind.


Have you studied Kabbalah? Forget what you think you know about so called "Abrahamic" religions. If you havent studied Kabbalah you dont understand a thing about the Hebrew bible and thus your criticism is based on the same cliched notions popular amongst new agers that the bible is all "stories" ie; simplicitic and thus irrational. The irony is that belief is based on a simplistic understanding of the incredible depth of the Bible. I guess ou could count it as G-ds humility that it can come off to the ignorant as nothing but "stories"

First, the entire bible cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of Hebrew.... and did the early Christian fathers seek to teach their followers the Bible in Hebrew? Or did they pass on the "new testament" in an entirely different language(Greek)? Thus permanently distorting the nature of the bible? Theres actually a Jewish Midrash (mystical homily) from around 2000 years ago that describes the translation of the Torah into Greek (which occurred in the 3rd Century BCE by Ptolemy, forcing the Rabbis to translate it) as causing the world to go dark for 3 days. This btw is typical of Jewish Rabbinic writings. People read this and think the same ignorant things they think about the bible; thats its just a "story". Its sheer BRILLIANCE is that it deliberately cloaks esoteric teachings in physical symbols. The Torah as i said earlier is the blueprint of the world. Thus, going "dark" for 3 days means that 3 levels or 'worlds' of meaning were lost in translation. All that can be conveyed is the simple meaning. But the esoteric - which involves analysis of Hebrew words, roots, gematria, comparisons, etc is completely lost. In Biblical hermaneutics, these 3 levels are the Resh, Dalet, Samech of whats called PaRDeS (pronounced like "paradise"). Pesht, the first letter in this acronym means 'simple'. The other levels are allegorical, homiletical (through comparison with other verses) and the esoteric.

The Greeks ie; the "christians" who formed the new testament DELIBERATELY conveyed the bible to the world in Greek so people would remain ignorant of the deptha and mysteries of the Torah in its Hebrew language...And it appears to b still very effective today. I say something about the bible any completely ignore it, spouting back some trite budhist 'logic' which is still focusing on the world in the Buddhist mindset.

Get this through your head. The Bible is ESOTERIC. It is entirely allegorical, in every single word, story, and event. Not even things like listings of places, or names, or specifications for ritual, or clothing are accidental, but incredibly deep. It startles me when i learn and i continue to learn about how wonderously deep the Hebrew Bible is. What an insult to yourself to even comment on it! Obviously you say these things in your ignorance but the truth is just so powerful that to me and anyone who actually understands the bible, and has learned Hebrew and been initiated into its secret teachings, what an "ass" you make of yourself by thinking it is a bunch of simple stories.




And to limit yourself is exactly what religious institutions that gain political might off of their herds want.


Right..And Buddhism desnt exercise any political clout? You realize there is no religion which exercises more influence over the UN than Buddhism. Look at lucis trust for instance. This is the official spiritual body of the UN, and it ws started by Alice Bailey whos personal Guru - Djwal Khul - was a deceased Buddhists "master"...Whether or not Buddhists agree with theosophy, the fact is Theosphy is mostly based on Buddhist ideas.

Or look at movies like Tron and Avatar which are laden with Buddhist ideas. Is that not undermining the personal beliefs of others?


You put words in my mouth. I was arguing the fact that the bible was written by people. People who, in their own dogma, decline the ability to understand the truth. I never argued against the worth of the knowledge in those books.

While I have studied some aspects of Kabbalah, I am ignorant of most of the jewish books besides the old testament. I am however friends with a lot of jewish people, and I do not shy away from educated discussions. I have a bad habit of testing religious people on their knowledge and faith and presenting them with difficult questions. Speaking of which, I would like to hear your explanation of the argument I brought up in my last post: How can men write the word of God, if men can't understand the truth of God?


In response to political clout in Buddhism: I consider myself a Buddhist, however I do not prescribe my loyalty to any religious figure head. The Dalai Lama is considered the leader of the Buddhist world by many, I however understand the often forgotten fact that Tibetan Buddhism was a de-facto monarchy where Buddhist monks enjoyed the privilege of royalty and used this privilege to attain power.

I was also present at a press conference where the current Shaolin Abbot, Shi Yong Xin proclaimed himself leader of the Buddhist world with over 6 million followers. Which was an amazing statement considering he is the first Abbot of Shaolin imposed by a communist government.. I think you can see why this is folly.

People will always claim authority, but someone who studies Buddhism will know that any person to proclaim himself leader of Buddhists is as far from enlightenment as any random guy in a crowd it even goes against the teachings of Gautama Buddha.

No abbot, rabbi, priest or imam can tell me the truth. Neither will I learn ultimate truth within a book. It can only be found within myself. Don't misunderstand this however; teachers and books are important tools on the path, but they can only point the way, not show you the truth. This is why, as great as your books are, they will never bring you to true enlightenment.



To respond to your other post: I am European, my mother jewish, my father catholic. I decline both those religions because I am not looking for pacification or half-truths. I have also seen too much to be an atheist. The teachings in Buddhism, specifically in Chan Buddhism turned my life from a dark path into a much brighter one, and I do not believe heritage has anything to do with that.
edit on 10-5-2011 by fedeykin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX
 
Fundamentals to meditation are also very important.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by fedeykin
 





How can men write the word of God, if men can't understand the truth of God?


The Torah was given by Moses who the Torah says spoke to G-d "face to face" meaning his mind was able to translate and constrict the infinite truth of the creator in the form of the Torah. Infact, the very name מֹשֶׁה (Moses) is Hashem backwards. And that of course is not a coincidence.




my mother jewish


Which you probably know makes you Jewish. Strange that you show such an antipathy to Judaism.

Can you respond to just one question? You keep hearing me talk about Hebrew. Why is it do you think i mention it? The Torah shows that G-d created the world speech "and G-d said...". The world came into beng through speech, and interestingly enough, modern string theory posits a reality of essentially vibrating strings; like the speech of G-d.

The only real reason why i attribute such importance to Judaism is this. Hebrew is something else. You cannot study this language, at Gematria and not be left completely dumbfounded. The words in this language are the very building blocks of reality. Reality is literally represented in microcosm in the Hebrew language (read Sepher Yetzirah). Also, language seems to be the thing that puts man above the animals, as Onkelos (A roman convert to Judaism who wrote the aramaic translation of the Torah) translates "and Adam became a living soul" into Aramaic as "and man became a talking being"....

Speech is creative in nature, and it this capacity which puts us into the realm of the truly divine. We are made in G-ds image and G-d has placed in us abilities similar to his own but in a limited form.

And why did G-d create man? The Ramchal (17th century kabbalist) explains that G-d wanted his glory to be known, but it could not be known without the concept of "2" , and so he created a self conscious being who could freely recognize and desire to exalt his creator. G-d wants man to know Him, and man can only know him by himself possessing a mind of his own. Paradoxically, mans freedom of will is meant to be sacrificed freely in service to the one truth. We are thus 'co-creators' in the unfolding divine drama of human history.




This is why, as great as your books are, they will never bring you to true enlightenment.


Ok...Whatever you say buddy. What is enlightenment to you? I know Tzaddiks (Jewish sages) who are constantly happy and at peace... Is this not "enlightenment"? Isnt this the Buddhist definition - the cessation of sufferring? These men seldom suffer, and there are no people which cope with sufferring the way Jews do and this is a commonly know fact. Look at what they did just 3 years after the holocaust! They founded a state! Now that is DETERMINATION.

You just unfortunately in your ignorance think very lightly about Judaism and theres no reason for you to think that. If you studied kabbalah you would understand that the concept of the 10 sefirot and 4 worlds is a remarkably cogent and clearly divinely inspired system that reflects reality in every way.... And than add the mystery of Hebrew. It doesnt even deserve to be called "mysticism", but a genuine metaphysical science.



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