Jehovah Witnesses and critical bible students, Please listen up.

Originally posted by Theophorus
A. Stop knocking at my door claiming to offer me the "truth"
If you are going to knock on my door, be prepared right then and there to offer me TRUTH.Or at least have some knowledge with credentials to debate religion or christian theology. I do not want to come to your kingdom hall and listen to an elder explain what you can not.Why are you sent to my house? why not someone who knows their field of study.

B. You must be a complete idiot to assume that I have not been exposed to "The Good News". I dont think that there is a person in the world who does not know about Jesus least alone the bible.
Why do you think that the New Translation of the Holy Scriptures is the correct translation of the Bible?The book you call the bible is an abomination. Shame on you !

C. Why have you replaced what the Jews held in reverence with the word Jehovah. Listen close,JEHOVAH is not a word.This is NOT Gods name.

D. Guess What? were all going to heaven. Yep, every single one of Gods creatures are going to heaven. God made us and saw that his creation was GOOD.

Here is the truth,

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

How can good produce evil... IT CANT !!!

Before I post my reply, I would like it to be made clear that I myself am not religious. I do not believe that God exists in a biblical sense, and I do not believe the bible to be the word of God.

With that said, I don't quite understand your reasoning for this thread? From what you've written down I think your anger is being fueled by ignorance. From the name calling down to the point where you tell them what their God's name actually is. Oh, and especially the part where you quote Genesis.

Coming from someone who has read and studied the bible multiple times, it seems fairly obvious that you have not, based on that statement alone. Had you made it past that point you would be well aware that yes, according to the bible, God/Jehovah/WHATEVER you want to call him, created all things, good and evil [I believe a poster quoted from the book of Isaiah].

The part of the bible that you quoted takes place before Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because of that, all mankind knows what it is to sin and has the will to do so. The one sentence that you quoted to be "truth" is one very small part of the book.

As per the bible, not all of God's creatures will be going to heaven. Sorry!

If you accept Jesus as your savior, live a sin-free life and follow the commandments, then sure. Jesus Christ died to pay the debt of your sins, that you may repent and be 'saved', so to speak. However, if God were to allow people into Heaven who did not accept Jesus as their savior, God would be breaking His word and saying that it is okay to commit sin. The punishment for sinning? Death.

Ugh. Please tell me you don't spout off with this crap when they show up at your door...

Hey - I don't like religion, I think it's a huge part of what's wrong with this world, and I certainly don't like it when people show up at my door to tell me how I should be living without ever having met me. But please, if you are going to try and put people in their place, educate yourself first.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

I don't attach myself other people's point of view, and i especially don't assert that one possibility to reality is truth or a "more intelligent choice" - That would be unintelligent.

Well then, think for your self. Contemplate. Simple question is is that if we are all (material things) receivers of existence, Which we factually are,( science can prove this) there must be something in which we possess our existence from. If there was not, then we could not exist at all.Only an intelligent person would agree, or in your case assume.

reply to post by Cinquain

Before I post my reply, I would like it to be made clear that I myself am not religious. I do not believe that God exists in a biblical sense, and I do not believe the bible to be the word of God.

Then why are you replying to this thread. I really dont care as to your own ideological pov.

Coming from someone who has read and studied the bible multiple times, it seems fairly obvious that you have not

Although my user name has changed, I assure you that I am not new to this site, lets go. Show me what you got.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Cinquain

 

Before I post my reply, I would like it to be made clear that I myself am not religious. I do not believe that God exists in a biblical sense, and I do not believe the bible to be the word of God.

Then why are you replying to this thread. I really dont care as to your own ideological pov.

Coming from someone who has read and studied the bible multiple times, it seems fairly obvious that you have not

Although my user name has changed, I assure you that I am not new to this site, lets go. Show me what you got.

edit on 8-5-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-5-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

As to your first question, I am replying to this thread because though I completely disagree with the idea of religion, I have always been fascinated with it and what it does to people. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't enjoy debating, discussing, and educating myself on the topic.

Secondly, I am not quite sure what your username and join date have to do with being educated on the bible? I still stand by my previous statements - I find it hard to believe you know what you're talking about when you quote one bible verse as 'truth' from a book that consistently contradicts itself.

I would be more than happy to show you what I got if you would very kindly explain to me what the hell you're talking about. If you want to turn this into some kind of bible-quoting version of a dance-off, be my guest! Your start. But maybe you could start by trying to make a little sense first, and at least attempting to sound rational.

Your entire original post was just blatant ignorance, I already stated why in my last post, but if you'd like me to elaborate I would be happy to.

The OP is just plain wrong.

God created everything and it was indeed very good. Yet because of the gift of freewill, given to firstly his angels, a third of which rebelled with Satan, Adam and Eve sinned.
Because God is all knowing, he knew that they would sin and so even when he was rebuking them in the Garden of Eden, there was a reference to the Saviour, Jesus Christ who would have to come to redeem his people.

If you think everyone goes to Heaven, then you haven't read the Bible. ONLY believers in Jesus Christ will be saved. That will probably offend anyone who isn't a believer in Jesus, but that is the way it is. Maybe devout Jews who are up to date with their sacrifices will be ok too.

If you think that you will go to Heaven by default, then there would have been no need for Jesus to die for you. Everyone has sinned and falls short, everyone needs Jesus.

reply to post by Theophorus


kk

That's how you reason, others may not. Einstein certainly didn't assume, Hitchens doesn't assume, Dawkins doens't assume. I'm not saying they are right, just that many intelligent people have a different viewpoint to yours. Doesn't make them "idiots" for disagreeing. Doesn't make their argument unintelligent whatsoever.

reply to post by Cinquain

Although my user name has changed, I assure you that I am not new to this site, lets go. Show me what you got.

I was simply stating fact that you do not know me. How can you say that it is obvious that I have not studied and read the bible multiple times.

I am replying to this thread because though I completely disagree with the idea of religion, I have always been fascinated with it and what it does to people. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't enjoy debating, discussing, and educating myself on the topic.

Educating yourself? lol. Religion sir, is a broad topic.This thread is intended for critical bible students not someone who is just simply fascinated with what religion does to individuals. My comment was for you to prove that you are educated on the subject not weather your own pov matters. It simply does not.

reply to post by Theophorus


Anyone can read the bible, whether they make an intelligent analysis of it is another issue.

I find it astonishing that people can promote a doctrine of which claims that geological events are punishment dictated from a supernatural deity.

A book that has an adbundant ammount of abhorrent ethical and moral preaching. A book that promotes supernatural beliefs, and putting faith before reason.

To believe in the authenticity of it's words is to believe that for at least 100,000 years of human evolution, the deity watches with indifference before finally deciding to introduce a "savior" in the form of a human sacrifice.

I don't think this can be believed by any thinking person.

And i also think it's pathological use is of equal value to that of a chocolate teapot.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I spread myself out all over though, and my interests are generalized. I will look for answers everywhere, any old texts or tablets from the distant past hold keys to unlocking the myriad of mysteries permeating the fabric of our modern society.

Your thoughts and opinions resonate very well with me. I look for truth everywhere and am open minded to carefully weigh and evaluate the information and make up my mind accordingly.

Sounds like you are on a positive truth seeking path as well.

GV

Originally posted by Theophorus

Educating yourself? lol.

Yes, sir, you should try it. If you'd like to play the "you don't know me" game, what exactly makes you think I'm not a critical Bible student? Because I find religion fascinating yet I don't agree with it?

I have proven I'm educated on the topic already - I pointed out faults in your original post that show your entire argument is wrong. God sends sinners to Hell. Not everyone gets to go to heaven. Period, end of sentence.

"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him" (Luke 12:4-5)

" And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15)

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." (Matthew 25:41) - Hell was not intended for mankind, but because we know sin and have free will to do it [you know, that little story of Adam, Eve, and the tree...] God's justice demands that we go there when we break his commandments.

Do not post a thread and then tell people that their point of view does not matter. You grow more and more ignorant each time you post, I swear it. If you want only opinions that are the same as yours, go join a cult. When you post a thread on an open forum to rant about things you clearly know nothing about, you're going to get opinions you don't like.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

I find it astonishing that people can promote a doctrine of which claims that geological events are punishment dictated from a supernatural deity.

Which geological events would you be attesting to? And what supernatural deity would this be? Clearly, if there was such a being he most certainly would be able to control geological events, right?.Reason stated is that if regular humans can control geological events why cant a being far superior do the same?Question boils down to, are humans inferior to other beings, let alone themselves.logical answer would be yes.

A book that has an adbundant ammount of abhorrent ethical and moral preaching. A book that promotes supernatural beliefs, and putting faith before reason.

oddly enough is that reason leads to faith.This book is just a book nothing more, nothing less.Books do not preach. People preach.

To believe in the authenticity of it's words is to believe that for at least 100,000 years of human evolution, the deity watches with indifference before finally deciding to introduce a "savior" in the form of a human sacrifice.

The deity you speak of in is in comparison of that which is an equal. In our time continuum. The deity I speak of is not in our time continuum.You clearly do not understand anything you have attempted to contemplate when it comes to the bible.

I don't think this can be believed by any thinking person.

problem is, is when people hit a road block in their thought process most tend to revert to imagination. They seem to theorize, or in plain English guess the answers they seek.

And i also think it's pathological use is of equal value to that of a chocolate teapot.

perfect example of uneducated biblical theory.

reply to post by Cinquain

Yes, sir, you should try it. If you'd like to play the "you don't know me" game, what exactly makes you think I'm not a critical Bible student? Because I find religion fascinating yet I don't agree with it?

No, the fact I am not talking about religion and you can not seem to distinguish between the two.

I have proven I'm educated on the topic already - I pointed out faults in your original post that show your entire argument is wrong. God sends sinners to Hell. Not everyone gets to go to heaven. Period, end of sentence.

The bible states clearly that God saw every thing that he had made, (including man) and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.-Genesis 1:31

It also says speaking of man,

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Question is, who are these sinners that are going to hell?. Certainly not man who God created and found to be "very good"

Do not post a thread and then tell people that their point of view does not matter.

Your pov deeply matters to me, however this is not what I said.I believe I used the term ideological pov.Is this how you read and studied the bible? Out of context.

reply to post by Theophorus


My mistake - allow me to elaborate. I enjoy learning about religion because I grew up in a Mormon household that was slightly over the top about the bible [and of course, the Book of Mormon]. I was made to study it but never was allowed to question anything I read. When I was old enough to decide, I chose to stop associating with the church and began exploring multiple religions, and studied multiple religious texts - including the Bible. I'm sorry that it seemed I was joining the two of them together, and you're right, they're not the same thing. Again, my mistake.

You're talking about out of context and that is exactly how you're taking Genesis. Again, you're right that Genesis 1:31 says that God saw everything he had made and that it was good, however this takes place before man is formed. A few verses later God creates Adam, and in Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

God forbids them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - they do it, and that's the catalyst for sin. Because their eyes were opened they're no longer 'perfect' and 'naive'. They know what it is to sin and they know that the punishment for this sin is death.

Matthew 25:46 "and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, and the righteous into life eternal" What is everlasting punishment, then?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

As for who are the sinners? I think you would know it's any MAN who doesn't believe in God, that Christ is their saviour, those that don't follow the commandments... Any MAN. Because though man was made in God's image in the beginning, man screwed up royally when he listened to Eve and the serpent.

That is not my individual ideology, that's the bible, and I don't think it can be made any more clear. Mankind sins againt God, they go to Hell.

reply to post by Theophorus

Which geological events would you be attesting to? And what supernatural deity would this be?

Yahweh, and "the flood" is just one example.

Clearly, if there was such a being he most certainly would be able to control geological events, right?

So volcanoes, earthquakes, flash floods are punishment from a being? And not because we live on a heating and cooling planet?

Reason stated is that if regular humans can control geological events why cant a being far superior do the same?

Same argument for creationism:-

"humans make bridges and watches, so beings like ourself must make animals and planets".

Dawkins has refuted these fallacies in his "Blind Watchmaker" book. We can assume that a watch has been assembled by an intelligent being, but what about laryngeal nerve of the giraffe? It's imperfect, It's unintelligent - it's legacy of evolution cannot be changed, it can not be placed back to the drawing board.

Please, you're really not doing yourself any favours by suggesting that a being is interfering in the geology of earth. This has long since been refuted and is the preaching of fundamentalists (people who actually believe all of the bible)

oddly enough is that reason leads to faith.This book is just a book nothing more, nothing less.Books do not preach. People preach.

No, the bible does preach, it makes extraordinary claims about why you should live your life a certain way. What sexuality to be, They make threats on your "eternal soul", threats of eternal hellfire. And suggests that humans are naturally "evil".

This kind of nonsense can give believers prejudice against non-believers - with ease.

The deity you speak of in is in comparison of that which is an equal. In our time continuum. The deity I speak of is not in our time continuum.You clearly do not understand anything you have attempted to contemplate when it comes to the bible.

What?

problem is, is when people hit a road block in their thought process most tend to revert to imagination. They seem to theorize, or in plain English guess the answers they seek.

The bible is not imaginitive, it's takes more imagination to realise there could be more possibilities to reality than just a universal dictatorship.

perfect example of uneducated biblical theory.

Riveting tale, fellow.

reply to post by Cinquain

My mistake - allow me to elaborate. I enjoy learning about religion because I grew up in a Mormon household that was slightly over the top about the bible [and of course, the Book of Mormon]. I was made to study it but never was allowed to question anything I read. When I was old enough to decide, I chose to stop associating with the church and began exploring multiple religions, and studied multiple religious texts - including the Bible. I'm sorry that it seemed I was joining the two of them together, and you're right, they're not the same thing. Again, my mi

Im sorry to hear that you had such a horrible experience with the Mormon Church.It seems rather odd that they would suppress their members from asking questions.Maybe your better off leaving them.

You're talking about out of context and that is exactly how you're taking Genesis. Again, you're right that Genesis 1:31 says that God saw everything he had made and that it was good, however this takes place before man is formed. A few verses later God creates Adam, and in Genesis 2:17

You need to go back and re read Genesis, your are horribly wrong. here I will post it for you.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

see God "made" man on the sixth day. On the seventh day God rested. Later,or parallel, God "Formed" Adam

Yes, Adam was a man, and Adam did sin, However, Adams punishment was not eternal damnation. Adam did not go to hell.

Your whole reasoning as to what the bible clearly says is wacky.

reply to post by Theophorus


I never stated in my reply that Adam went to Hell I am aware that God created Adam and Eve in such a way that they would have a relationship with him without the influence of sin and evil. They weren't to know any better and they didn't until they ate of the tree. Once they disobeyed God they set the lead for mankind.

Regardless, you were stating that everyone goes to Heaven. I have given you quotes stating otherwise - eternal damnation is a punishment for sin, which means not everyone goes to heaven. What were the fires of hell created for, then? Or then, what is your interpretation of hell?

Originally posted by dwmjr1985
reply to post by Theophorus

 

There are some apocrypha books of the bible that also state that eventually all would be brought to heaven. They threw it out for fear that people people would do as they please... not that they don't already.

I don't believe you're correct about these apocryphal books, but nevertheless there are those of us who still believe that all will eventually be brought to heaven. There is enough evidence of that in the Bible we have!
William Barclay

reply to post by Cinquain


What's funny to me is that the devil (snake) bribes them to eat from the "tree of knowledge" which gives them a concept of right and wrong. If it wasn't for the devil, they would not be "moral".

Can anyone verify whether this is meant to be a historical account of the dawn of manikind? I'm quite sure humans evolved from lesser beings. Are we expected to believe that humans were placed here in the exact form we are in now?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Theophorus

 

It's an assumption that because something exists that it has a designer.

Richard Dawkins criticises this philosophical assumption in his book "The Blind Watchmaker"

It's safe to assume there is a designer if you come across a watch in nature. Just because humans exist doesn't mean it has magically been put into existence by a maker. And in actuality, there is evidence proving the contrarary. That we evolved from lesser beings, evolution having no forsight, never being able to "go back to the drawing board" - NEver magically picking out parts to put together in real time.

We can assume that a watch has a maker, because parts don't just magically form together. But it's an assumption to say humans or existence has a maker.

It would be better to listen to, or read Richard Dawkin's comments on this assumption of a creator.

I find it interesting that you claim your position is the most intelligent. What about fractal theory. The idea that reality is infinite.

Everything appears fractal, humans have humans, gallaxies give birth to stars, universes give birth to gallaxies, maybe there's something larger at work, perhaps infinity is true, there is no fininty to reality.

All i state is that a creator is one possibility, but assuming one possibility is not intelligent, especially considering how little we know about the universe and reality.

edit on 7/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Goku72


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