I Don't Think That Modern People Actually Believe That God Exists

I don't. I never really considered the possibility of it until I started looking into how most people fit the notion of God into their own lives. How many times have you heard someone say.

"Well, that's how I see God. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. No one really knows, and no one can ever really know, so I have my way of looking at it all, and it works for me. I think that God's okay with however a person chooses to deal with stuff like that."

Or....

"I'm a (__specific-religion___) and that's the way it is. I was raised a (__specific-religion__) and my whole family's been (__specific-religion__) for generations. That's what we are."

Or.....

"I've been reading this book, and I really like how the author's version of (__specific-religion__) makes me feel. I feel closer to God and I think I might start going to (__specific-church__). He listed them as being really in tune with how I feel about God."

It seems as if people who include God in their lives do so on their own terms and not as if God were as real as (let's say) street crime or nuclear radiation. Let's face it, no one thinks that they can deal with street crime or nuclear radiation on their own terms, but for some reason, they think that they can freely define God as being whatever it takes to fit Him into their busy schedule. I guess I find that fascinating.

I suspect that it has to do with the constant schism between what the modern person who lives in the industrialized world claims to believe and what that same person knows to be true about reality. I mean, Heaven was moved from "up" to wherever it is now once satellites debunked the whole angels in clouds theory. And it's been downhill ever since for the literalists.

Now, in the US, it's a requirement to thank Jesus every time you get a touchdown, or win an award. As if Jesus was only concerned that you got that score or won that award, and to hell with the other folks you beat out. But it just seems odd to connect Him with stuff like that. It's as though God has been reduced to an OCD tic for most people. Like He doesn't exist, unless you want to keep a lucky streak going - or get one going.

Hell, why else would people dismiss the need to actually verify the accuracy of what God actually is - now that all the ancient descriptions have been proven to be impossible as specifically depicted. All I can think is that no one really sees any importance in reexamining the actual reality of what God may or may not be

reply to post by NorEaster


I do not agree with any of this. I don't think God is real, I KNOW He is!

I'm a modernday woman who has 4 children a marriage lasting 14 years, several job titles and many talents. God has provided for me and I've never gone without because I know He will and does provide, even when I cannot. God is LOVE. He is my foundation and my salvation is secure in Him. I know where I am going when I die. Heaven is not in ouuter space, but a different realm than this which we currently reside in.

No one could ever make me doubt in my Father...He is who I serve...He is more real than anything else I know...and He has never let me down. So sorry, but you are sadly mistaken.

reply to post by staciebee


Okay, that's one out of how many million? Seriously. I know that there are many Evangelicals and hardcore religionists, but the bulk of modern-day people invent the God that "works for them".

By the way, what about people who don't have God doing all the heavy lifting in their lives - like (say) 6 out of 7 billion people that God brought into this world, only to walk off on? Any idea why they don't have God tending to their lives, like He tends so dilligently to your life? Must be awesome to have the Alpha and Omega of the whole of existence working for you and your family.

reply to post by NorEaster


Maybe beacause they don't believe in Him or give Him all the credit due Him.



Yup, I think that's most likely the case! He is faithful to those faithful to Him.

God can certainly mean a lot of different things to different people. Even between two people of the same religion or alternate belief system, their versions of what the nature of God is can be significantly different.

I think we live in postmodern times and there really is no universally accepted basis for these words anymore. Everything now is open to be idiosyncratic or unique based upon pretty much anything.

God is just another name for consciousness. Christ is another name for consciousness. Jesus and Buddha were spreading the message of consciousness.
It is the ability to bring all past and future to this moment of now.
In this moment of now all things appear, and only this moment of now exists.
This eternal now is where it all happens.
This here and now is all there is to worry about. And there is no need to worry about now because it is already happening without your consent.
Your consent is not necessary, your will is not needed.
It is the will of god/consciousness.

Typically human beings do not see this eternal now because they are worried about the future, or stressing about some past event.
Logically we can see that we can not change the past using our thoughts. Yet we move stuff around in our heads trying to make it better????
Always trying to make things better, always approaching life with the thought 'what's next?'. How can i protect myself in this scary world?
This is the reason why God is not there for some people, not because he/it has turned away from you, but because you have turned away from him.

Now and here is always here.
When we choose to be there and then we will not know god.
God is in a placeless place.
Nowhere.
(Now-here).

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
God is just another name for consciousness. Christ is another name for consciousness. Jesus and Buddha were spreading the message of consciousness.
It is the ability to bring all past and future to this moment of now.
In this moment of now all things appear, and only this moment of now exists.
This eternal now is where it all happens.
This here and now is all there is to worry about. And there is no need to worry about now because it is already happening without your consent.
Your consent is not necessary, your will is not needed.
It is the will of god/consciousness.

Typically human beings do not see this eternal now because they are worried about the future, or stressing about some past event.
Logically we can see that we can not change the past using our thoughts. Yet we move stuff around in our heads trying to make it better????
Always trying to make things better, always approaching life with the thought 'what's next?'. How can i protect myself in this scary world?
This is the reason why God is not there for some people, not because he/it has turned away from you, but because you have turned away from him.

Now and here is always here.
When we choose to be there and then we will not know god.
God is in a placeless place.
Nowhere.
(Now-here).

I see. And so how did you verify this to be true? Or did you?

After all, you wouldn't assume to walk into a crippled nuclear reactor facility, with your faith as your shield against the radiation. Would you? You'd make damn sure that you understood the reality of the physical nature of what you were dealing with before exposing yourself to what may or may not be harmful. Right?

And yet, what was the research that led you to embrace the belief that you have embraced, as well as all the potential ramifications of that belief?

God is a placeless place? Can you put that into your own words? That's not a description that makes sense to someone like me. It sounds like a poetry riff, and I don't get poetry at all. In other words, do you have a firm intellectual grasp on what God is or isn't? Is God more than a laundry list of esoteric catch phrases for you?

When I read what you just wrote, I honestly have to wonder whether you're serious at all about any of it. I understand the rejection of immediate societal concerns (money, power, esteem), but that's not the subject here. The subject is whether you care enough about the reality of what God is or isn't to ever question what you've embraced as being true. After all, if God does exist, then God exists in a very specific manner, and with very definable features that uniquely identify Him as being God. There is a beginning and an end to the parameters that make up the whole of God, or else God can't exist at all.

Without definable parameters, God is nothing more than a concept that a person tosses out there to explain what he/she hasn't got the active concern to bother dealing with. God becomes the existential "sh*t happens" that closes the book on whatever doesn't make any sense for that person. It seems that now days, this is what God is for a lot of people.

A placeless place? Nothing is a placeless place. And nowhere is not "Now here". That's like saying that the opposite of God is dog. That's just silliness pretending to be profound.

Originally posted by staciebee
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Maybe beacause they don't believe in Him or give Him all the credit due Him.

Yup, I think that's most likely the case! He is faithful to those faithful to Him.

Odd. Terrorists always give glory to God before killing everyone around them. And they worship the exact same god that you worship - the God of Abraham. So then, God is also faithful to them? He must be if what you say is true. Believe me, it takes a lot more faith than I could ever gather together to strap a suicide vest on and walk into a crowd to explode yourself on behalf of God's will. Even if the devotee has been lied to, his faith should have God right next to him during the entire sacrifice.

I don't know. The evidence isn't very good for God being right there working the faithful like willing marionettes. Faith can't be the determining factor.

Originally posted by NearPerfect
God can certainly mean a lot of different things to different people. Even between two people of the same religion or alternate belief system, their versions of what the nature of God is can be significantly different.

I think we live in postmodern times and there really is no universally accepted basis for these words anymore. Everything now is open to be idiosyncratic or unique based upon pretty much anything.

My point exactly. If people really believed that God exists, then this would not be the prevailing wisdom. No one thinks that a bullet to the brain "means a lot of different things to different people", and the reason is because everyone believes in a bullet to the brain.

reply to post by NorEaster


Some of the reasons that people don't believe in God.

-It's a conjured theory, there is no evidence to prove such a being.

-In ancient times, similar unprovable beleifs were formed; people thought geological events were punishment from a deity.

-Just because there is no evidence doesn't make Atheism and Theism (religion) of equal stance:-

The theist is the person making the claim on 0 evidence, the theist is the only person who has to admit his lack of conviction and credibility. The theist automatically loses the argument when confirms God as truth.

-God, in scripture, is a fowl, evil, jelous, tyranical character. Even if "he" did exist, who would want to be dominated under such a dictatorship?

-You cannot extract objective morals from simply looking at reality, The only way to form prejudice regarding God is if you believe in scripture (written by man)

-There is no omnipotent being, this can be falsified - Further arguments against theism:-

"The problem of evil"

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

-"Euthyphro dilemma"

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

There's just a few reasons why people might not believe in a GOd, or relgiion's God's.

Some non-believers or Atheists are agnostic non-believers. They don't have any clear evidence to submit to a theory, but they would be willing to renounce given evidence was provided.

reply to post by staciebee

I do not agree with any of this. I don't think God is real, I KNOW He is!

No you don't. You think or believe "HE" does. You're just as naive as the rest of humanity, you simply don't know.

I'm not being arrogant here, i'm being honest.

Your argument HAS to rest on "personal experience" because no scientist, historian or theologian has evidence (logical or empirical) of an omnpotent being.

Subjective experience is not trustworthy evidence or a reasonable argument for the existence of God.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Can't really argue with you about the traditional depiction of God. I guess I'm challenging those people who insist that they can determine the nature of God for themselves. That their version of God is as valid as anyone else's version of God. As if they can believe in God while embracing the notion that they have no responsibility to be absolutely sure that they know who or what it is that the believe in.

I'm probably not that concerned about the arguments aainst or in favor of the existence of God. That sort of issue is covered in every third or fourth thread in this forum.

I only wish everyone who demands extraordinary proof for God would apply those demands equally to what they themselves take as "givens".

Much of theoretical physics is just that: theoretical. You can't observe it directly but by golly it makes some formulas work out and you have to be really smart to understand it, so it must be true and scientific.

Or karma... how does that work exactly? Who manages it? Who sees to it that bad people come back as rocks or worms or mosquitoes, and good people come back as... um... rich people or something? If it's impersonal then how are these decisions made, by chemical reactions or something?

Or panspermia, or multiverses, or an entropic universe that somehow works like a giant perpetual motion machine, or why naturalistic and undirected processes should ever result in anything but no net gain, especially over long periods of time. The same people who swear they only accept verifiable facts will nonetheless also believe that somewhere along the line in either the distant past or some part of the universe where the laws of physics as we know them don't apply, life somehow appeared without a cause or pre-existing matter whose origin only begs the question further.

It comes down to choosing how you determine anything at all, and everyone without exception begins with whatever seems reasonable to them. Some begin with experience or feelings and others with the presumption that observation is reality and all that can possibly exist. Still others try to weigh and balance both extremes to a point between them.

I took a college physics course called "Seven Ideas that Changed the World" and watched a BBC series called "The Day the Universe Changed" (been a long time, hope I got the title right). The point of both was that our ways of determining what is reasonable and what is not are often overturned. But not always as people like to presume; for example, when Galileo was tried for heresy for saying the earth revolves around the sun, the church at the time merely sided with the scientific "knowledge" of the day; it wasn't "science against religious faith" at all but one science against another.

The lesson we need to learn from all this is that we should all be more humble about blasting somebody else's "givens". I have my reasons for my faith in "the First Cause" as more than a force or accident; after all, it makes little sense to point to the space shuttle and say "Design!" yet point to its designers and say "Accident!". But I can only explain my views and hope that others would be content with explaining theirs rather than trying to destroy others. Remember, the dish you serve today may be the leftovers you eat tomorrow. :-)

reply to post by NorEaster


I just don't trust speculation. Especially on the basis of 0 evidence. I don't think faith is good for the "truth" - And it causes some people to resent the truth.

I think religion, and speculation regarding a creator is cancer of the truth

reply to post by NorEaster


God is in a placeless place means here and now = nowhere. I am very serious. It is all poetry and there is nothing to understand.
Tell me, what do you think the ramifications of 'my beliefs' are?

One thing I think is a fact in North America at least, is that certain religions (JW's and Mormon's come to mind) have pretty much sealed the deal that you will go along with the status quo or suffer the consequences. If you were questioning some beliefs of your faith as a JW,you would be ex communicated from your family and friends.

Many people have probably decided to keep quiet, smile and nod their heads. These two particular sects, as an example, do not encourage questioning or open debate. It would take a very strong person to stand up and make their case, with the realization that they suddenly have not family or friends to socialize with.

When I have chatted with certain Christians, they seem very rigid and "black and white' in their thinking.

It just does not equate with what a loving, caring God would bring to the table.

Originally posted by NorEaster
How many times have you heard someone say.

"Well, that's how I see God. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. No one really knows, and no one can ever really know, so I have my way of looking at it all, and it works for me. I think that God's okay with however a person chooses to deal with stuff like that."

Sometimes. Where I live, NZ is a very secular country, so I suppose most people have this view, but then unlike what I presume the USA to be, most people don't claim to be Christian!

Originally posted by NorEaster

"I'm a (__specific-religion___) and that's the way it is. I was raised a (__specific-religion__) and my whole family's been (__specific-religion__) for generations. That's what we are."

That one, seldom - or probably, never! (I have heard it about politics though).

Originally posted by NorEaster"I've been reading this book, and I really like how the author's version of (__specific-religion__) makes me feel. I feel closer to God and I think I might start going to (__specific-church__). He listed them as being really in tune with how I feel about God."

Never.

None of those fit my own views or experience. I was brought up by parents who were atheist and agnostic. I became a Christian after I had left home, as did both my parents, years apart, and both of them were dead within a few years of that, so no family influence whatsoever.
I believe in God, completely and totally and have done for more than 38 years. I am unfazed by scientific ideas, as here in New Zealand the idea of God and science being at odds is considered more than a little bizarre, and also I am not a literalist. The number of Christians here who are literalists is minute, and the existence of literalists is very recent, and AFAIK of American origin.
All that being so, I think your initial premise is very wrong. You are judging only by your own culture, which is only a fraction of the world's population despite the USA's disproportionate military and financial influence.
Vicky

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

-"Euthyphro dilemma"

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Oh, anti-theism 101!
Did you learn those on Dawkins site or Harris's?
V,

Everything in this existance is pointing us toward reality, whether it is god or science. God and science is a way of describing reality.
Yet reality can't be explained, just known.
Know reality or make stories up about it.
When reality is seen, experience is all.

reply to post by Vicky32


hahahahahahahahahahahahaa OH hahahahahahahhahahahah. OH hahahahahaha

..No, i just take an interest in the Philosophy of Religion.