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Human Sacrifice in the Old Testament (No, not Abraham!)

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posted on May, 6 2011 @ 03:24 AM
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Jepthah, the man who sacrificed his daughter to his deity:

Judges 11:30-



And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, [even] twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she [was his] only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
And she said unto him, My father, [if] thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, [even] of the children of Ammon.
And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
And he said, Go. And he sent her away [for] two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
[That] the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.


So...Jepthah went ahead and sacrificed his daughter, and no angel came to save her, no command came from the deity that human sacrifice wasn't allowed...yet I'm supposed to say that this is the perfect book and that it's the perfect word of the perfect being...a being that allows child sacrifice (some times).




posted on May, 6 2011 @ 03:37 AM
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Not you again! What is your problem? Why don't you just ignore the Bible if it bothers you so much?

I've never studied this passage in-depth, but I think the point of it is that you are NOT supposed to make these types of vows to God. It's an object lesson, and both his vow & his behavior were wrong.

It certainly isn't advocating human sacrifice.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 03:37 AM
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That wasn't a blood sacrifice. She was given up for temple duty. I guess you could say, she was the first nun because she had to remain a virgin.

Afterwards it was a yearly custom for the young Israelite virgins to visit Jephthah's daughter at the temple to comfort and praise her for her dedication to God. - Judges 11:39,40

edit on 6-5-2011 by CodeRed3D because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 04:25 AM
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I will completely ignore your statement as it is obviously false,for God loves us so much that he sent His son to die for our sins.
If you do a little research you will find that the Bible has fulfilled its prophecies and people are still in this day,persecuted,and insulted for what they preach and believe,and that is love,for God is love.
Satan hates love and loves fear,he is the ruler of this material world.
100 millions of lives where given for you to know this truth and be saved,it is for you to accept it or reject it...
I hated God,and i loved sin...thanks to Him my eyes are opened now and i try to give my heart to Him.

I am saying this not because i think its right,but in my heart i know,and my mission is to spread the good news.
God loves you



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by Schkeptick
Not you again! What is your problem? Why don't you just ignore the Bible if it bothers you so much?

That statement works the same even if it is reversed. You ready? Watch this-

Not you again! What is your problem? Why don't you just ignore this member's posts if they bother you so much?



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 05:03 AM
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reply to post by BrokenCircles
 


Lies and false witness can't bring anything good,if you know what is right you wont try to convince people in lies...i am sad that some people are deceived by satan,and don't want to open their eyes to the truth,but the truth will find its way and the lies will soon be forgotten.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 05:22 AM
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It takes a certain skewed worldview to see this story as teaching divine acceptance of human sacrifice. That there was human sacrifice in the area at the time is uncontroversial. A signature Hebrew innovation in religion is that their God isn't moved by human sacrifice, not even on special occasions. He was different in that regard from some gods worshipped by the Hebrews' pagan neighbors.

Jephthah behaved like a pagan, first in bargaining with God for favors at all, and then in offering to perform a human sacrifice of some haphazardly selected member of his household if he got his wish. A more secular and cross-cultural interpretation of the story is as a warning not to make hasty vows. The two month wait is a nice narrative touch, as is the immediate and sustained acquiescence of the daughter.

A deeper thread would consider why Jephthah kept the vow, and why his daughter acquiesced, especially after both had had sixty days to think it over, she was not in custody, and both knew that their God would disapprove of human sacrifice.

If you are interested in pursuing that, and the appearance of this story in this book, with which you obviously have issues, makes that pursuit difficult for you, then perhaps the Oedipus cycle of Sophocles would be less inflammatory. King Oedipus makes a hasty vow. Yet he keeps it. Antigone, his daughter, gives up her youth in his service, and dies voluntarily in order to bury her brothers. Similar story, similar human motives, no Yahweh.

-

edit on 6-5-2011 by eight bits because: good diction avoiuds bad fiction



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:04 AM
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reply to post by Schkeptick
 


So...the story of the dude promising to sacrifice the first thing that runs out of his house so that he can get victory of his enemies, god fulfilling his end of the bargain, and the the dude going ahead and killing his daughter because she runs out of the house first....is somehow advocating against the sacrifice?

Now, I'm not saying the passage advocates it...though I am against it being allowed. I'm against the idea of a child's life being traded for victory in battle.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by CodeRed3D
 


No...Judges 11:39-40 doesn't say they're visiting her at the temple...it says they're lamenting her. There is nothing in the passage that says that she was given up for temple duty. The word used by Jepthah is the same word used for animal sacrifice. The passage says he does as he said he would.

You're whitewashing the passage.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 


Hey look, it's a straw man! I did actually quote the passage and I never did use the word 'accept', I said allow, there's a large difference between the two terms.

Now, from the passage I provided (and this is a J source, so it's a heavy monotheistic piece):


So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.


Who delivered them into the hands of Jepthah? Yahweh. He didn't just happen to win, it's explicitly given that this was divine assistance. Yahweh keeps up his end of the bargain, Jepthah keeps his as well.

Sure, there's a 'be careful what you make as a promise' message, but there's also a 'Yahweh will hold you to your word, even if it means child sacrifice' message as well.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


You have are pointing out the mistake and delusion of a MAN,there is nothing in that passage that is implying that God has commanded that or needs it.
I don't understand why you try to twist the word of God,and if you think Bible is just a story for kids like santa,you should do more research.

The antichrist is very much real and in existence for centuries,do a research on papacy and the Vatican,and think with your heart,not with your brain.
God loves you



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by AlwaysStoned
 


So instead of reading the passage from the Bible where Yahweh accepts a human sacrifice, you'll just preach at me? Peachy.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by AlwaysStoned
 


I'm sorry, but can you please show where I've lied?

Oh, and the false witness thing is a legal command...the wording in Hebrew is put in the language of legal accusation. Don't falsely accuse people of actions and don't falsely provide witness in a case of false accusation.

Lying is dealt with separately, though it is obviously abhorrent in the Biblical commands (I can't think of a moral code that really allows for lying though).



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:16 AM
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reply to post by AlwaysStoned
 



Originally posted by AlwaysStoned
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


You have are pointing out the mistake and delusion of a MAN,there is nothing in that passage that is implying that God has commanded that or needs it.


Well, he did deliver the Ammonites into the hand of Jepthah after the promise was made...



I don't understand why you try to twist the word of God,


Please, show me where I've twisted it. Also, please show me that it's the word of a deity.



and if you think Bible is just a story for kids like santa,you should do more research.


I never said that, I'll just toss aside the straw man there. I'm going to say that the Bible is a collection of mythologies from a people who were trying to justify cultural traditions and make sense of the world and events unfolding around them.



The antichrist is very much real and in existence for centuries,do a research on papacy and the Vatican,and think with your heart,not with your brain.


Hey, it's the incredibly idiotic religious idea that actually thinking with the part of your body that thinks is a bad thing.

Listen, thinking with the brain has given us computers and every other major scientific and technological advance in history, I think it's a fairly good process.

Thinking with your 'heart', giving in to emotion instead of reason? That's always had some bad results.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I am sure that God does not need our material bodies since,we don't have souls,we have bodies and souls are what we are...
If you try to open your heart to the Lord he will give you answers,and this is not something i have heard,i have experienced it myself.
There is nothing in Gods plan that is without a purpose,and people choose not to see the purpose to live in their foul righteousness and sin,we must all try to be better,and try to spread love instead of fear and hate!
I love talking about God


Peace,David



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Ok,i understand from your post that you have refused to take my words of good will and do some research,it is always easier to find what fits your little reality...
So you say science and brains are more important that what is right,i ask you,how much pain and suffering science have bring to this world?
Human testings,animal testings,nuclear power,weaponry...drugs,do i need to go further?

Please understand i am not writing this because you insulted me or Bible,i am writing all of this because every man is Gods and he loves us all,and he wants our souls to be saved.

100s of millions christians didn't die for nothing,the prophecy has been fulfilled and is unfolding in front of your eyes,you just have to choose to see it,and turn to Christ:I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6

I was a non believer,a hater,of God,but i have begged for wisdom and i have been blessed.
Love is the only way



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:30 AM
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And for your bitter remark on thinking with heart i can respond with this

www.mindfulmuscleblog.com...

Love dude,its the only way



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 06:56 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




So instead of reading the passage from the Bible where Yahweh accepts a human sacrifice, you'll just preach at me? Peachy.


The story neither says God commanded or accepted the human sacrifice. I think it serves the man right for even trying to offer God a human sacrifice. Much like when parents in Israel were offering their babies to Moloch, God punishes them for the demonic activity, He doesn't stop them from doing it.

It says nowhere in Chapter 11 that God 'accepts' the human sacrifice. In the OT when God 'accepted' a burnt offering the fire came down from heaven and consumed the offering. That is how the priests at the temple knew if their sacrifice was 'accepted' by God or rejected. Same with Cain and Able, that's how Cain knew his sacrifice wasn't accepted and Able's offering was.


edit on 6-5-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 09:09 AM
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Hey look, it's a straw man! I did actually quote the passage and I never did use the word 'accept', I said allow, there's a large difference between the two terms.



Who delivered them into the hands of Jepthah? Yahweh. He didn't just happen to win, it's explicitly given that this was divine assistance. Yahweh keeps up his end of the bargain, Jepthah keeps his as well.

You believe that there was a bargain struck between two parties. You believe that the first party kept its side of the bargain, and you believe that the other party paid the agreed price, and that the transfer was accomplished. Oh, yeah, you believe the first party paid allowed the payment to be made.

But that first party didn't accept the payment, according to you? OK, I'll bite, what happened to the holocaust, in your view of the story, if God did not accept it?


Sure, there's a 'be careful what you make as a promise' message, ...

Close enough to agreement...


... but there's also a 'Yahweh will hold you to your word, even if it means child sacrifice' message as well.

... but you still aren't getting the black letter plot of the story. Father and daughter chose to go through with the sacrifice. Yahweh doesn't even appear during their deliberations. They "held" themselves and each other to it.

You really don't see the mechanism at work here. That's why I suggested the Oedipus, to let you look at it without the supposition that some God is responsible for human choices and behavior, which is simply not in the Jephthah text.



posted on May, 6 2011 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 


Wow, more straw manning. What I'm saying is that the deity accepted the initial bargain...which could have included a goat for all we know. Maybe even a dog. I'm saying that the deity in the story allowed the initial bargain to be followed through even though the price was something which was, at that point, prohibited.

Now, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Jepthah was fully responsible here. If this deity (which neither of us happen to believe in) actually exists within this story and happens to deliver its end of the bargain at the first part (and the text is quite clear that it does), then maybe it's trying to teach the guy a lesson...but it does not interfere as it does in the Abraham narrative.

I'm not saying that it's a giant endorsement of child sacrifice, but I am saying that it stands in sharp contrast to the narrative in Genesis.



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