I was a skeptic . Now I'm a believer

reply to post by subby


I think you've missed the point of what tpg was trying to say by that.

That, if you apply the "delusional thinking" to the UFO community simply because they believe in something that isn't seen and never can be proven to be seen, then the same delusional thinking would have to be applied to those who are deemed "not delusional and sane" that are Christians or ANY religion, as it's based solely on dogma.

Originally posted by subby

Originally posted by tpg65

Originally posted by subby

Originally posted by skem64

Originally posted by subby
Conversely, I used to be a confirmed believer and subsequent investigation has changed me to a suspicious skeptic.
There are a lot of hoaxers and deluded people that can be very convincing. So how do we sort the falsehoods from the truths? Evidence, of course, which is what you are declining to provide.

Can you elaborate on this "subsequent investigation" that changed you in to a "suspicious skeptic".

As posted, I am a believer but to be fair, if anyone can convince me otherwise, I'm prepared to listen. But I fail to see how anyone can provide "evidence" of something that doesn't exist. Anyway, show me some of the stuff that changed your mind.

Well, visiting this very forum regularly provides enough evidence of hoaxes and delusions.
Plus, it's a subject I've been researching for 20 years or so. I've also worked as a mental health professional for 10 years, so have a good knowledge of delusional thinking. Asking for solid proof seems only sensible to me; extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, after all.

UFO Watchdog has some interesting information.

The 'Hoax' forum here is a good read too.

Would you apply this thinking to the millions of Christians around the world ? and if not , why not ?

I am an atheist.

You are not an Atheist . You do not even know the true meaning of being an atheist. If you did , you would not label yourself as such.


regards

Originally posted by alphabetaone
I think you've missed the point of what tpg was trying to say by that.

That, if you apply the "delusional thinking" to the UFO community simply because they believe in something that isn't seen and never can be proven to be seen, then the same delusional thinking would have to be applied to those who are deemed "not delusional and sane" that are Christians or ANY religion, as it's based solely on dogma.

Even as an atheist myself, I think there is a difference between the things such as a belief in UFOs and Christianity or any religion (That isn't to say there are not those who treat UFOs as a religion, but that is another post for another thread). Though admittedly, it may be a splitting of a very fine hair. While both beliefs claim to be the the truth, one claims itself to be an objective, scientific reality while the other by its nature is unknowable and unquantifiable. One is a personal belief (no matter what it says) while the other, by claiming to be an objective, scientific truth, demands your acceptance.

Originally posted by alphabetaone
reply to post by subby

 

I think you've missed the point of what tpg was trying to say by that.

That, if you apply the "delusional thinking" to the UFO community simply because they believe in something that isn't seen and never can be proven to be seen, then the same delusional thinking would have to be applied to those who are deemed "not delusional and sane" that are Christians or ANY religion, as it's based solely on dogma.

I haven't missed any points. Quite the opposite, in fact. At no point have I stated that all UFO sightings are the result of hoaxes and delusions, what I have stated is that there are a lot of convincing hoaxers and deluded people claiming to have seen UFOs. I'm certainly not applying the term "deluded" to the entire UFO community and never have. Why would I have the avatar pic I do if I simply didn't believe in UFOs?
I'm not going to discuss my views regarding religion here, as it's off-topic and there's already a discussion elsewhere on this site exploring it that I've contributed to.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by skem64
I mean it's Human Nature to be curious

But is jumping to a conclusion based on any number of pre-established biases really curiosity?

I guess until a person has first hand experience, he'll never know.

Actually, this is not a quote form an external source, but a quote form an internal one. One of many that don't spend their time anymore due to dealing with willful ignorance, pointing it out and getting "ghost banned". But his words still ring true.

But, if you have had some sort of "experience", yeah for you. But to try to expect the rest of us logical thinkers to swallow what you "experienced" is absurd. Might as well go run around in the forest and find a bunch of golden plates that you no longer have but still have memory enough to translate and form a religion. Get the point? No, I didn't think you would, lol.

It has been said that “if you’re young and not liberal you have no heart, but if you’re old and not conservative then you have no brain” This seems to translate to the Ufology subject. If you’re just getting into it, all dough-eyed and gullible you swallow some pretty outlandish things…and even ignorantly defend some outlandish things.

But as time goes on, the dough-eyed believer eventually sees through the BS that is posted online daily and begins to view things with their wits about them. Unfortunately, for each person who comes to their senses it seems like 10 step up and take their place. It also seems that once folks “grow up” and have their BS detectors properly calibrated through years of wading though the sewer called Ufology, that they seem to just disappear. For a while they will stay and fight the good fight, but not for long it seems.

Also, I think some come to their senses and just disappear out of embarrassment, embarrassed they believed some of the goofy things they first encountered when delving into this subject. Their dreams or fantasies deflated by reality, they hang their heads and slink out the door. After all is said and done we are left with the overwhelming ignorance that permeates most aspects of this subject.

And I’m not talking about ATS or any other specific board, but I’m speaking of the subject of Ufology in general. For far too long we have been represented by the loudest and the most outrageous of us. Some of us come to our senses and leave, some struggle to lift others out of the muck, yet others never grow up and go on to ensure that this subject remains laughable to the masses, ignorant to the damage they contribute to by perpetuating a stereotype. Is this vicious cycle just going to go around and around forever? Where are we going with this? Or are we going to collectively come to our senses and actually create an atmosphere that won’t reward ignorance?

reply to post by subby


Well, with respect to your avatar, it can be meaningless and often is, as they don't often reflect someone's mindset or intentions, but often represent the antithesis of it.

As far as religion being off-topic, not in the vein that he asked the question it wasn't. I saw the question as simply asking it to make a point about what you would or would not ascribe in ALL situations, UFO, religion, or otherwise...in that respect, it's completely on topic and relevant.

Being a mental health professional as you purport, surely you must see that.

reply to post by alphabetaone


Okay, to apply my statement to the millions of Christians around the world, yes, I do believe that amongst them are many delusional people.
Again, to reiterate and prevent myself being misquoted, I haven't stated that all UFO believers are delusional, but that some are, hence the need for proof of extraordinary claims. Do I think that Christians should provide similar proof, yes I do.
There's an excellent link between the two topics in the form of Scientology. Do I also believe that Scientologists are deluded, guess what, I do.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I don't do 'faith' - I desire evidence before believing anything 'supernatural' or extraordinary.
Maybe I should add that these are my own views and not what I've been trained to think within my profession - the attitude there is that if a belief appears delusional but is an accepted aspect of one's own culture, then it is not a delusion.

I expect there are many disappointed believers in the failed rapture last Saturday that wouldn't consider themselves deluded.

reply to post by subby


Ok.

Understand that I was merely trying to bring focus to the link between the statements and questions...not trying to get you to make an admission to anything at all. I get the feeling that you felt as though is was an effrontery, but it wasn't.

But with that said, I agree with you wholeheartedly, of course there are delusional elements in all camps.

Since you made an addition, I want to make one too.... you're right about the training versus the personal belief system, of course that makes sense. However, my own belief is that the concept being delusional is what is at question, not a persons character being delusional. A concept can be delusional (I think) without the person adhering to it's tenets being a delusional person (I think). So, if the concept itself is what's being called to task, I can understand it.

Sometimes I so carefully micromanage my own words and dissect them so carefully, that often the message I originally started out attempting bringing, gets lost in a mire of my own semantics. For the purposes of this discussion, I guess that the premise is UFOlogy has as many equal parts delusional concept as religion has, so in that, they are on equal footing; the people who ascribe to them notwithstanding.

Like you, I desire, no demand, proof of ANYTHING before I ever make a concession to it's existence.

reply to post by alphabetaone


I agree. Very eloquently stated too. A pleasure to read.
It's a fascinating topic. Indoctrination is a powerful tool, and I'm certain that if I had a child and raised it to believe in the good old Flying Spaghetti Monster, it wouldn't question the reality.
Semantics are a wonderful thing - a UFO isn't a flying saucer, a flying saucer isn't necessarily from outer space, E.T.'s aren't necessarily the occupants, and E.T.'s / UFOs may well exist and not actually be visiting this planet.

I think you hit the nail on the head (as we say here) in that a person can believe in an apparantly delusional concept without being medically diagnosable as deluded. I know many Christian believers that work in mental health, including a psychiatrist who claims to speak in tongues. As an atheist you may be able to imagine my views on that!

Incidentally, I have that avatar, which is purported to be from the 1990 Belgium sighting, because as far as I'm aware, it's one of the UFO pictures that can't be explained.

Originally posted by skem64
I guess until a person has first hand experience, he'll never know. [/quote

I have. I saw something being followed by fighter jets. I have no idea what it was but even though it was very weird, I can't say with any certainty what it was.

Originally posted by skem64
I guess until a person has first hand experience, he'll never know. [/quote

I have. I saw something being followed by fighter jets. I have no idea what it was but even though it was very weird, I can't say with any certainty what it was.

So true. I'm lucky enough to have seen a UFO a few years ago and it remains completely unexplainable to me, but that doesn't mean I automatically believe all claims of UFOs.

Originally posted by subby

Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by skem64
I guess until a person has first hand experience, he'll never know.

I have. I saw something being followed by fighter jets. I have no idea what it was but even though it was very weird, I can't say with any certainty what it was.

So true. I'm lucky enough to have seen a UFO a few years ago and it remains completely unexplainable to me, but that doesn't mean I automatically believe all claims of UFOs.

Count me in as someone who saw something in the night sky that was not conventionally explainable. I saw a triangular shape of lights that (I think) was hovering until it flew off. I say "I think" because I didn't take notice of it until it flew off. It seems like it was hovering beforehand, but I wasn't looking directly at it.

However, I'm not going to call that proof (or even good evidence) of alien visitation. They were simply unconventional (as far as I could tell) lights in the sky, and not necessarily ET in origin.

I have a big problem with this term "believer". i know most of you have your opinion based on the facts, but this term puts such a stigma on the UFO subject and those who indulge in it. We should try and avoid using the term.

Originally posted by Zazamoukh
I have a big problem with this term "believer". i know most of you have your opinion based on the facts, but this term puts such a stigma on the UFO subject and those who indulge in it. We should try and avoid using the term.

But the reality of it is that there are people whom I call the "blind believers" who have a pre-conceived notion based on dogma (rather than hard evidence) that alien visitation is occurring, thus they are more apt to believe that any particular sighting is a real alien sighting, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I have always said that these "blind believers" are practically the same as the "stubborn pseudoskeptic", These stubborn pseudoskeptics will dogmatically deny the very possibility of alien visitation, even in the face of unexplainable events. I'm not saying the pseudoskeptic needs to necessarily believe in alien visitation based on these unexplainable events, but they should not deny the possibility.

But at the same time, the blind believer shouldn't fight tooth and nail that every UFO report is an alien craft, just because they dogmatically believe in alien visitation.

...came across this,

www.starchildproject.com...

Originally posted by tpg65
Today has been an epithany. After years of sitting on the fence , I now believe 100% that we have been visited by Alien races since the dawn of man.
I also now believe that tptb in the U.S. have been back engineering captured spacecrafts for decades and that they already have lightspeed and sybmbiotic engine technology.

Now the sad part .
Disclosure will never come in our lifetime ( not unless our interstellar brothers , show themselves for all to see), because for disclosure to come from tptb , they will have to admit to decades of lies and cover ups and that is never going to happen.

I'm not going to share how I have reached my conclusions , because I believe that each one of us must seek the truth for ourselves .
All I will say is , good luck with your search .

Once you have seen the truth , everything else falls into place

Peace to all

Welcome. What took you so long???
Disclosure should be here very soon.
We will use the advanced technology to mine the asteroid belt out past Mars.
Jobs......Jobs......Jobs!
-------------------------------------------------
I'm wondering where the very first - sky way - will be installed.
Los Angeles to Las Vegas ---------------- or Scottsdale to Flagstaff ?

We sure have seen a lot of them in the movies.
- The Fifth Element -
- Star Wars Trilogy -
- Back to the Future II -

Originally posted by tpg65
I'm not going to share how I have reached my conclusions , because I believe that each one of us must seek the truth for ourselves . Peace to all

I understand that experiences are not transferable, but it will not harm you if you give un a hint, so that we have the oportunity to increase our knowledge!

Originally posted by subby

It's a fascinating topic. Indoctrination is a powerful tool, and I'm certain that if I had a child and raised it to believe in the good old Flying Spaghetti Monster, it wouldn't question the reality.

Indeed subby, in fact it is one of my FAVORITE topics. Here's a bit of *my* belief system. I believe that religion was developed by, what were at the time, a handful of the periods "elite". The elite THEN were such a small group yet HIGHLY intelligent, they realized one very important concept: "What if the people were to revolt against us?" Well, what better way to keep them in check than by instilling the fear of an intangible entity in them that has direct control over their eternity? It's not something that someone who looks to religion for comfort wants to hear, but in MY mind, it is a very likely scenario. So, throughout the millenia's the indoctrination is very deeply seeded.

Originally posted by subby
I know many Christian believers that work in mental health, including a psychiatrist who claims to speak in tongues. As an atheist you may be able to imagine my views on that!

Yes, as an atheist I CAN imagine your views on that. But wow, a psychiatrist that claims to speak in tongues?? That is simply incomprehensible to me....I can barely fathom the ordained having a grasp on ancient language aramaic or otherwise, nevermind a psychiatrist whom I would think to know better. From an absolute learning perspective, I would love to hear it.

Originally posted by subby
Incidentally, I have that avatar, which is purported to be from the 1990 Belgium sighting, because as far as I'm aware, it's one of the UFO pictures that can't be explained.

Yes, actually I remember when it first came onto the scene. Many Belgium police and civilians had seen the anomaly, and without a doubt brings a lot of questions to mind. In that respect, I have a hard time DISbelieving such a diverse array of witnesses, but it would not be unheard of, for an entire community to ascribe to a hoax simply to put themselves on the map, although this one I wouldn't think that of.

reply to post by skem64



I've read a bit more about this Starchild skull. It's really interesting. Follow the links/icons on the left of home page.