In search of HHO power to anything always. Out of the claws, into.... something new.

reply to post by nh_ee


Your post asks some interesting questions. No, I haven't measured the input voltage or the output, I am running a 12 (13.5) volt system, with a 100 amp alternator. The power wire comes right off the battery. Here is my mix:

2 ml. of human urine. Fill up the jar with the urine and clean water, i use natural spring water, but distilled water works well too. Tap water have to many deposits in it. Distilled water at Kroger is about $0.87 a gallon.

I heat this mixture on the stove, bringing it almost to a boil. Then I add one tablespoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda. Stir until completely dissolved.

I tried using just urine once, and no baking soda at all. the gas came up real fast, filled my inlet tube and almost blew the cap on my jar. See, what you need is electrolytes. And human urine has a lot of them.

Good luck, remember, this is no turn key thing. You have to maintain it.

reply to post by stargazer88



Thanks for posting that Stargazer !


Looking at the past and other members whom have been "Banned"

Seeing as the AboveNetwork LLC. are the owners of ATS makes me suspicious.

Especially when one looks at the cost of developing and maintaining a website as elaborate as that of ATS.

The server space alone would cost quite a bit. Not to mention the maintenance.

This is not a part time operation owned and maintained by a group of conspiracy theorists...

It smells of big money and corporate America all of the way.

Historically speaking, this is the exact Facade typically used by the intelligence community.
Historically used in Swaying the public opinion.

Simply look at the history of UFO's and how witnessed were ridiculed and embarrassed.
The same approach is being applied to the 911 Truth Movement.

A very good book about the CIA and how they operate is called "CIA - The Secret Team"

www.bilderberg.org...

If I am no longer a member here in the not too distant future then you know exactly why...
But I can guarantee you that I'll be over at Glenn Cannady's site explaining why.



LIVE FREE OR DIE !

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by nh_ee

 

Your post asks some interesting questions. No, I haven't measured the input voltage or the output, I am running a 12 (13.5) volt system, with a 100 amp alternator. The power wire comes right off the battery. Here is my mix:

2 ml. of human urine. Fill up the jar with the urine and clean water, i use natural spring water, but distilled water works well too. Tap water have to many deposits in it. Distilled water at Kroger is about $0.87 a gallon.

I heat this mixture on the stove, bringing it almost to a boil. Then I add one tablespoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda. Stir until completely dissolved.

I tried using just urine once, and no baking soda at all. the gas came up real fast, filled my inlet tube and almost blew the cap on my jar. See, what you need is electrolytes. And human urine has a lot of them.

Good luck, remember, this is no turn key thing. You have to maintain it.

Thank you Autowrench. This is awesome and further knowledge allowing me to make further progress towards setting up my own system.

I have studied other systems. The complexity turned me off.
The simplicity of your system is interesting.
As years of engineering experience have taught me, simplicity is the key.

For There is less to go wrong.

I will test a generator first on the bench, using a motorcycle battery and different catalyst mixtures.
I even have an old Briggs and Stratton powered lawnmower that might be my first candidate for HHO infusion.
It's just sitting there idle anyway...

What type of volumes of water are we talking here with the 2 ml of Urea and baking soda ? A liter of water ?
A gallon ?

I already own a water distiller which I use for auto maintenance in refilling and replenishing my coolant in my vehicles.

This is also why I am interested in installing a system on my Jeep.
Great vehicle and fun to drive with Posi and a 5 speed but suffers from Poor gas mileage.
But It also has sufficient room underhood to plumb this system in as my more modern vehicles do not.

You didn't mention the vacuum line at all. So apparently you aren't using engine vacuum to vary the system flow.

Instead of Vaccum It appears that you are using your ECU switch to vary the fuel mapping or fuel flow ?
Hence the City and Highway settings ??
Whatever works !

It is readily apparent that the power required by the HHO generator does not exceed the benefits of the combined HHO and Gasoline mixture.

Or else you would not realize a net gain in MPG.

Plain and Simple.

Thanks again for sharing.

reply to post by boncho


Boncho I almost want to say to you, that you need to stop posting here. But I am not a mod.

From the beginning of this thread you always try to show me that 'it' I can not be done.
Your way of thinking is in a limiting way, mine is expanding.

I dont believe if you say, no I am just being realistic.

The only thing I like about your comment is that you make me search even deeper. Anyway next week I am going to my sisters friend. They have an big company, with lots of working materials. He is in for an experiment were we want a scooter to run on HHO.

Our goal is to double our miles per gallon. We plan to install this device.
I know its pretty basic, but we are amateurs.
If we succeed in doubling our miles per gallon, what are you going to say next??

Originally posted by stargazer88
this technology is soooooooo suppresed on here i jus tryed to make a thread dealing with how ats censors most of the hho stuff!!!!!!!!!! and they woudent even post it up

That's why I created this thread is a kind of drawing board.
Think, and play the game of ATS

reply to post by nh_ee


I am sharing your thoughts about Boncho.
And you thanks for all the comments. I love HHO. Next week we are first time experimenting with a scooter.

Maybe I come here for real-time tips

reply to post by nh_ee


Hey just reading back all the comments. Thanks again, I see you were helping my thread back on track.

Originally posted by autowrench
My unit does not replace the gasoline, and sorry some of you may have thought that. what it does is make non efficient gasoline almost 100% effective. The HHO also cleans all of the Sulfur and Carbon deposits from my engine, making is clean burning. My tailpipes are clean as a whistle inside. My engine runs so quiet I can hardly hear it, if not for the loud mufflers I wouldn't hear it run at all. I would believe it's only 25% effective and just take it off, but the truth is it's saving me too much money. So I will just believe the lie that it is not effective and keep running it.

I will soon join you. I hope.
This will be the target car after the scooter experiment.

Opel/Vauxhall astra 1.8 16V

sorry double post

reply to post by nh_ee


A lot add a switch to their HHO reactor, so it can be switched on or off.

You don't want to wire it directly to the battery, as the reactor will be drawing current and making gas, even when the ignition is off.

At the least, you want to wire it via the cars ignition circuit, that way the reactor is off, when the car is.

You'll find that the hotter the cell gets, the more current will be drawn by the cell. Circulate and cool the electrolyte to keep current draw down. Size, quantity and spacing of cell plates (electrodes) and arrangement of Positive, Neutral and Negative polarity plates will determine how much energy the cell will draw from your power source.

I was messing about with HHO for a year or two a while ago now...great fun to mess about with, but *be careful*..HHO is a *very* potent and energetic gas.

When i first started with HHO experimenting, i just had 8 of 2"X5"X1mm 316L stainless plates, with plastic bolts holding and spacing them with nylon washers about 0.5mm apart, and the whole assembly inside a old plastic ice cream tub, submerged in lye electrolyte.

Worked great, and produced a fair amount of HHO gas for such a crude set up...which was *very* explosive...as i discovered, when at a weak minded moment, i decided to see if i could ignite the gas coming from the tube i had in the ice cream tub....*BIG MISTAKE* (most of us try it at one time or another!!!) ..i did not have a bubbler or Flash back arrester at the time (it was early days of HHO)...and the reactor and chamber went *BOOOOOOOMMM!!

I was deaf for about 20 minutes...electrolyte all over the walls and ceilings and me!

Probably the loudest bang i'd heard since a GPMG burst firing next to my ear hole, back in my Army days!

There's a *lot* of power in that gas..so *be very careful*.

I packed up experimenting after a fall out with an unreliable experimentation partner so i didn't get too far along with it all.

Since then, HHO tech has come on leaps and bounds in terms of gas production for energy input, and quality of build and components...Titanium plates are all the rage these days i hear, and some very interesting results are being achieved.

Some are posting videos, of running a truck, a motorcycle, a kind of a 'Tuk Tuk car', electrical generator on HHO gas alone..this is going to be very controversial and fairly moot until it's confirmed and proven, as these things normally are.

But even so, up to a conservative 50% extra MPG for a little messing about and playing with SS or Ti plates seems like a trade off i can live with!

I'm going to get back into this...go for a 'dry cell design' and aim to whack it on our car and save some cash on fuel.

reply to post by nh_ee

What type of volumes of water are we talking here with the 2 ml of Urea and baking soda ? A liter of water ? A gallon ?

The jar I use is an ordinary one quart Mason Jar, found at most any hardware store in America. It needs to be tempered glass. I am not sure how many liters it is, I know not the metric system.

You didn't mention the vacuum line at all. So apparently you aren't using engine vacuum to vary the system flow.

The unit has one 3/8 vacuum line, this goes to the PCV port on the throttle body, and must have a check valve inline in case of backfire. My unit is like THIS one. The jar lid has a vent line, I feed that into the breather, thus burning the waste gas, which contain Carbon Monoxide. If left open, your eyes will soon sting. I once hooked the vent live to an active vacuum line, it very quickly sucked all of the mix out.

YES, by all means install a 30-50 amp toggle switch, one of these stainless one, not the cheap plastic one. I left mine on more than once, resulting in an overheated unit and damaged equipment. I installed an amber light in my dash, right where I can see it, and wired it to the switch so when I turn it on, the light comes on. And people,I am an amateur at this too, that is why i went for the simple unit, instead of the complex plans they sell on the net. I do have two years experience running this, so I will answer questions as best I can, based on that alone. Good luck to all of you, hope you get yours running soon. Let us bring Big Oil to their knees. My configuration on a small, four cylinder car could get up to 70 mpg. Think about it.

reply to post by TribeOfManyColours

Our goal is to double our miles per gallon. We plan to install this device. I know its pretty basic, but we are amateurs. If we succeed in doubling our miles per gallon, what are you going to say next??

If you can provide enough data to rule out other reasons you are getting a gain in MPG and you can show that your hydrolysis is doing something useful I won't say anything I will support you.

But the main problem with hydrolysis is that it isn't that efficient. Meaning, the idea that it is going to provide something meaningful is next to nil.

reply to post by boncho


Okey you mean that if I do not make any modifications to the ECU I will not increase my miles?

The plan is indeed to not make any mods, only guide the hose to the intake of the carburettor/ or the air filter(not sure yet)

Perhaps stupid question? I have an car runs on benzine The benzine flows to the engine and it vaporizes in the cylinders were the spark makes the boom and the rest is common knowledge.

If I add in the stage were the cylinders start to fill up with benzine gas with some extra HHO, wouldn't that make the car efficiently on fuel consumption? Because there is less room for benzine gas to fill up the engine?
How must I see this? Or must i make an mod to the amount off benzine that flows out of the tank?

reply to post by boncho


Boncho, if you don't understand the physics behind it don't automatically bash it. It takes a lot more HHO alone to run a small engine than if you mix the intake with NEBULIZED cold water. Not just plain mist. There is a difference. Don't put your foot in your mouth, there are a lot of people doing this. It isn't a matter of IF it works. It WORKS. I have seen it run in my garage.

The nebulized water greatly improves the volumetric efficiency of the engine. Hydrogen stores a lot of energy, but releases it too quickly before the crankshaft reaches critical angle. The "mist" slows the flame front, and provides a media to help maintain even distribution of the energy release. Being in a low energy state when introduced helps also because it expands as it is heated by the combustion chamber, and combustion process. I have been turning a wrench for over 20 years this is not a joke.

Now to clarify, running an engine on water(HHO) alone isn't really a great idea. It's fun to play with small engines, but anything large enough to power more than a lawnmower or a scooter just isn't feasible yet. However HHO boosting does work great on larger engines. Doubling mileage with a simple system isn't a realistic goal either. You normally get between a 30% and 40% decrease in fuel consumption with a WELL BUILT system that properly addresses engine control. Very, very, I repeat VERY few systems properly address engine control. A good engine controller alone will gain you 10% to 15%

Throw away the coils, and Mason jars. They are a waste of time, and resources. If you insist on building your own system look into 7 or 13 plate design. DO NOT use baking soda EVER. It produces carbon monoxide, and can KILL you! Plus it poisons stainless steel electrodes with excess carbon. Breathing HHO is harmless unless it has electrolyte fumes in it(it shouldn't if you built your system right), or you make enough to asphyxate yourself(not likely). Use KOH(potassium hydroxide) it is a true catalyst, and performs far better, but has it's own safety considerations. You need to make a liter to a liter, and a half at or below 15 Amps or your energy penalty will eat you alive. I build a cell that makes between 1.25 and 1.5 liters at 12 Amps. Not the most efficient in the world, but simple, reliable, efficient enough to do the job, and they aren't an arm, and a leg. I also have distributorship to an engine controller that is affordable, and only 4 wires to install, and it tunes itself. Just the controller will get you almost 20%. The hydrogen adds another 10% or 15%.

I drive a 2001 Montero Limited. It's factory MPG rating according to the new rating system is 12 city/14 HWY. Before I modified it, it was pretty much right on that average. I would occasionally get bad gas, and drop as low as 10 MPG. I get 15-16 in town now, and 19-21 on the highway. Not double, but a respectable 30% to 40% increase in mileage. Throttle response is much better, and it idles exceptionally smooth. Another trick that will get you almost as much as a hydrogen mod is to inflate your tires to about 38-40 psi (no it won't hurt, or wear them out.) drain, and flush all your fluids(engine oil, transmission if standard, transaxle etc...) and replace them with lower viscosity QUALITY synthetic lubricants. You will get better protection for less drag. I recommend AMSoil. Then install a manifold vacuum guage, prefferably one designed for economy monitoring that has the little LED lights. Run it in the green, only occasionally light the yellow, and never light the red. This will give you feedback into your driving habits, and make you a more economical driver. If you combine all this with a HHO on demand system you MIGHT double your mileage, but even if you don't you WILL significantly increase it.

If you want to argue the finer points of why it shouldn't work I enjoy a lively debate, but keep in mind I have the advantage of almost 100 vehicles on the road ALL getting at least a 30% increase in mileage. I also intimately understand the physics, and concepts behind Otto cycle combustion engines. If you aren't a gearhead with a rating over 9000, don't even start with me. I eat eggheads for breakfast. The difference between application, and theory is that theory doesn't work, application does. Results based research rules. Those that can do, those that can't spout theory.

Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by nh_ee

 

A lot add a switch to their HHO reactor, so it can be switched on or off.

You don't want to wire it directly to the battery, as the reactor will be drawing current and making gas, even when the ignition is off.

At the least, you want to wire it via the cars ignition circuit, that way the reactor is off, when the car is.

You'll find that the hotter the cell gets, the more current will be drawn by the cell. Circulate and cool the electrolyte to keep current draw down. Size, quantity and spacing of cell plates (electrodes) and arrangement of Positive, Neutral and Negative polarity plates will determine how much energy the cell will draw from your power source.

I was messing about with HHO for a year or two a while ago now...great fun to mess about with, but *be careful*..HHO is a *very* potent and energetic gas.

When i first started with HHO experimenting, i just had 8 of 2"X5"X1mm 316L stainless plates, with plastic bolts holding and spacing them with nylon washers about 0.5mm apart, and the whole assembly inside a old plastic ice cream tub, submerged in lye electrolyte.

Worked great, and produced a fair amount of HHO gas for such a crude set up...which was *very* explosive...as i discovered, when at a weak minded moment, i decided to see if i could ignite the gas coming from the tube i had in the ice cream tub....*BIG MISTAKE* (most of us try it at one time or another!!!) ..i did not have a bubbler or Flash back arrester at the time (it was early days of HHO)...and the reactor and chamber went *BOOOOOOOMMM!!

I was deaf for about 20 minutes...electrolyte all over the walls and ceilings and me!

Probably the loudest bang i'd heard since a GPMG burst firing next to my ear hole, back in my Army days!

There's a *lot* of power in that gas..so *be very careful*.

I packed up experimenting after a fall out with an unreliable experimentation partner so i didn't get too far along with it all.

Since then, HHO tech has come on leaps and bounds in terms of gas production for energy input, and quality of build and components...Titanium plates are all the rage these days i hear, and some very interesting results are being achieved.

Some are posting videos, of running a truck, a motorcycle, a kind of a 'Tuk Tuk car', electrical generator on HHO gas alone..this is going to be very controversial and fairly moot until it's confirmed and proven, as these things normally are.

But even so, up to a conservative 50% extra MPG for a little messing about and playing with SS or Ti plates seems like a trade off i can live with!

I'm going to get back into this...go for a 'dry cell design' and aim to whack it on our car and save some cash on fuel.

This has been an interest of mine for a while as well. Having previously worked in the automotive industry.

If one looks at the advancements made in automotive technology. Why is it that the gasoline paradigm hasn't changed much if at all since the dawn of the automobile ?

It's called massive profits from Gasoline and complacency by the public.

This is where the concept of the HHO system began to peak my interest. Because it makes so much sense.

The energy density contained by Hydrogen is considerably higher than that of Gasoline.
Less pollution and toxicity than that of Gasoline minimizing the need for as many pollution controls on the automobiles.
Water is considerably cheaper than gasoline.
Two Thirds of the planet is covered in Water.


I have purchased some of the plans off of the net. Moreso from an educational perspective.
For their is always more than one solution to any problem.

I became a bit hesitant with these plans and their complexity.
But I will take from them what I can and learn from others experiences as well.

As far as the switch...Absolutely Yes, I agree with the switch as Autowrench agreed.
Wiring anything directly to your battery is never a good idea. It also tends to drain your battery as well....

Looking at the nature of the HHO Generator and as well as your experience Spikey.
For safety's sake, I would want to prevent run away conditions that could lead to potential catastrophic events.
Like damaging my vehicle.

For if the generator creates HHO based upon current. The how much current is really necessary then ?

If applying battery voltage can potentially provide too much current, then perhaps we needn't provide that amount of current at all times ? And only when necessary ?

The vacuum line control was my intent there. Since the engine vacuum varies with throttle position, the vacuum could potentially be used to control the amount of voltage provided to the HHO Generator for example.

There are alot of questions but I will keep Autowrench's system in mind as a basic boiler plate in which to create a basic proof of concept bench testing system.

Thanks for contributing...

reply to post by autowrench


Thanks Autowrench.

After 25 years of engineering experience, simplicity always prevails in the long run.
I have purchased some of the plans off of the Net and though interesting. I found them to be a bit complicated.
I just dug them up and will revisit them providing details in future posts here for all to share.

But,That's why I like your approach to this concept. Is the simplicity.

My question is.....What about your ECU City/Highway switch, what exactly are you toggling on the ECU, may I ask ?

I haven't looked at the Pin Out diagram of my ECU lately ....but Is it ignition timing related or what ?

Thanks for the link on the basic HHO generator. BTW.

reply to post by nh_ee


A manual switch is a good idea. However the best plan is to energize your system only when the engine is running. This can be accompished in one of two ways. Both methods require a standard Bosch style 30 amp automotive relay. The first is the simplest method, energize the coil on the relay from the power side of the fuel pump relay. On cars with a variable output fuel pump this is not feasible. Not a lot of cars are this way so it works 80% of the time. The other option is to use the oil pressure switch, and the normally closed side of your Bosch style relay. When the oil pressure is low, as in the not running condition, the relay has ground, and the N/C side is open. When the engine starts, and the oil pressure switch losses ground the N/C side is closed, and powers the cell. You do have to use a second relay however to deny the cell relay power when the cars electrical system is completely off. Not as complex as it sounds. I have only ran into one car that neither of these methods would work. We put a "T" between his factory OPS switch, and a dedicated OPS switch just to run our system. Good thing an OPS switch is only about $10 at the parts store.

To attenuate Amp draw to the cell: The simplest, and most reliable method is to control your electrolyte mix. The down side is that it takes a bit longer to warm up, and produce best gas. A PWM(Pulsed Wave Modulator) is another option, but a good one is about $150, and takes some know how to make it work properly. The PWMs for hydrogen use are still in their infancy currently however, and are still a bit problematic, I don't care what the guy trying to sell you one says. Lots O' experience there. You can run a lot "hotter" mix with a PWM, but if it fails you will have big time thermal run away, and melt your cell down. If the voltage comparator, timer chip, or a transistor blows out(which happens a lot) you're screwed. It's all or nuthin', you either drop to zero, or go wide open owing to what condition the failure leaves the circuit in.

Several years of experience has led me to the conclusion that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle applies here. The more sophisticated you get the more headaches you have. A 13 plate cell with at least 2" x 2" plates, 0.125" spacing with a safety bubbler, using your electrolyte concentration to limit maximum amp draw with a logic engine controller, not analog. EFIEs are garbage they are too simple, MAP adjusters are a joke. I know of only one analog sensor based programmer that works, and you can't afford it. It takes proprietary software to run, so it is not do-it-yourself. It takes a full day, or two to program, and tune correctly if you know what you are doing. Awesome results, but not time, or cost effective.

I built a system with a PWM, an auto leveling system, a stand alone fuel management system, and all the bells, and whistles I could think of. It took 6 months to work the kinks out, and it only got 5% better mileage than the simple system I am running now, but cost 5 times more!