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So you think "Chemtrails" are real huh? Here's some debunking for ya!

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posted on May, 4 2011 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by coyotepoet
Of course there have been contrails as long as there have been planes. My question is whether or not those contrails spread out across the sky and stayed there for hours like "contrails" do today.


Yes they did.

This was written in 1942 by Antoine Saint-Exupery in "Flight to Arras"


The German on the ground knows us by the pearly white scarf which every plane flying at high altitude trails behind like a bridal veil. The disturbance created by our meteoric flight crystallizes the watery vapor in the atmosphere. We unwind behind us a cirrus of icicles. If the atmospheric conditions are favorable to the formation of clouds, our wake will thicken bit by bit and become an evening cloud over the countryside.



This is taken from here, but "Flight to Arras" is still available on Amazon in a volume with a couple of other works by the same author.

Exupery was shot down and killed in 1944.

Also in 1944 The News, Frederick, MD wrote the following on 7 March:


“Contrails frequently have a tendency to cause a complete overcast and cause rain. In Idaho I have seen contrails formed in a perfectly clear sky and four hours later a complete overcast resulted“


you can see teh front page that includes this on het Frederick News archive site - but you have to pay to see the detail sorry!

If you believe Contrail Science then you can see the page here


Then from 1955 there's this article from the Spokane Daily Chronicle which notes that an extremely persistant contrail might stay in teh sky all day.

A couple of decades later in 1970 we get this from Airborne Observation of contrail effects on the thermal radiation budget


The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
[....]
Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.


so yes, contails have been expanding out into clouds when conditions were right for it to happen for a long time now.




posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
I don't think the argument is whether contrails existed years ago it's whether or not they have chemicals in them this day and age. How are you debunking the existence of chemicals in them?


There needs to be some sort of evidence that there are such chemicals in the first place to be able to do any debunking.

fortunately the chemmies have dome some really bad "sampling" trying to prove that something has drifted on down in a mist from above .....she's just the girl.....oops.....sorry.....


anyway - here's why all the chemmie "samples" to date are rubbish:

1/ Mt Shasta - new samples find nothing

2/ What in the world are they spraying

3/ Barium chemtrails on KSLA

4/ Arizona Skywatch "non-science"

If there are others we should check out please let us all know



edit on 4-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: just my usual crappy typing



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by coyotepoet
No one was questioning contrails.


Lots of people say that contrails can only last a few minutes, whereas science says they can last for hours if the conditions are right.

therefoer I think that lots of people ARE questioning contrails.

And of course some people take it a bit further:


There is absolutely no factual explanation based on atmospheric conditions that can account for the huge disparity between the two trails. Any attempts to use that excuse is completely bogus.


From our dear "friend" Matty at www.abovetopsecret.com... who thnks that the atmosphee is uniform throughout and nothing can ever make persistent contrails exist!!



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by bhornbuckle75
 


www.wired.com... Here is the article I alluded to in regards to spraying and tracking people. I found some other links on spraying various chemicals for various reasons. I am not however going to bother at this time. First debunkers try to say people are crazy for saying that chemicals are being sprayed. Then they try to say they have been spraying different things for years. I guess it is ok to continue and keep adding more and more. You also stated that it wouldn't be feasible to spray the entire planet. I don't know if anyone said they were I certainly haven't. From my inquires I have found no evidence of this being done in Egypt or the Middle East.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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OK then, just explain what do they spray? It is the fact that they do, there are videos on YT with the planes that have some chemical containers inside instead of passenger seats, etc. Can't wait for your "ideas" lol



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by redrose123
reply to post by bhornbuckle75
 


www.wired.com... Here is the article I alluded to in regards to spraying and tracking people.


so it's about "smart" technology targeting people some time in teh future - nothign to do with "chemtrails" out of teh exhaust of commercial aircraft at all.


I found some other links on spraying various chemicals for various reasons.


agricultural (fertiliser, seed, pesticide), fire fighting, cloud seeding, air-show smoke........none of them secret. Experiments in the 1950's - 70's - secret then but not now. Did you find anything "new"?



First debunkers try to say people are crazy for saying that chemicals are being sprayed.


Let's be specific here - no-one has ever denied the ones above that are now known.

What else do you think is being sprayed?



Then they try to say they have been spraying different things for years.


You mean apart from teh obvious ones above? Such as what?


I guess it is ok to continue and keep adding more and more. You also stated that it wouldn't be feasible to spray the entire planet. I don't know if anyone said they were I certainly haven't. From my inquires I have found no evidence of this being done in Egypt or the Middle East.


If you think contrails are chemtrails then there is plenty of evidence of them over the middle east - here's flikr's catalogue for contrails over egypt, and here's a photo of a really suspect one over Petra, Jordan: www.flickr.com...@N00/4706091042/



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:45 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Apparently you haven't been keeping up with what I said. Which is no one I know of are saying that all con-trails are chem-trails. But to deny that all kinds of chemicals are being sprayed on us at any given time is more foolish than the people that are being rediculed. To think there have been and are being more added to the mix doesn't make one insane. In regard to turning this into a conspiracy mix is par for the course. We are on a conspiracy site.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by quitesane
 


>sigh



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 07:44 AM
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What is it with people wanting sooooo much that chem trails are fake.
Wake up ffs, how much proof do you need gawd



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:46 AM
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reply to post by firecircle
 


Sorry but your theory means that someone somewhere can overcome all the laws of physics. If you know the science, you would know what you are seeing is contrails, and that nothing up there needs the help of man to look and act they way it does.
Can't say it any simpler than that. Learn the science involved. I suggest starting with meteorology. You don't know now.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by rstregooski
 


It's not "admitted". It's some people have extrapolated there must be something up because they don't want to continue to learn and didn't know the science involved.
What is admitted is that there are contrails, lots of them, and they are being studied because people everywhere would not like so many. And it's admitted that the military uses chaff in training. And it's admitted that there is cloud seeding.
Geo-engineering is a much broader subject than "chemtrails", which they don't admit exist. Geo-engineering is a field of study. Smart people who know the science are trying to figure out if it would work, and what the cost (with all regards, not just the $$) would be if it would be attempted.
And these same experts seem to be in agreement that cloud seeding is NOT geo-engineering. Cloud seeding is a known, but it doesn't affect the climate, just the precipitation in one small area, for a very short time. It does not involved spraying either. Or making rainclouds. It involves introducing nucleating particles into an already existing cloud, to attempt to make it drop the water that is already there.
People who bring it up "chemtrails" as geo-engineering just don't know enough about geoengineering, climatology, meteorology, to make an informed statement. It's been decided to use that term fairly recently. In the past, there have been lots of "proof" that they were used for all kinds of thing. Give it a year or two, and they will try a new opinion.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:08 AM
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Well thank you for all that personal debunking, WOW.

You did some great work and now I believe you instead of my very own eyes or logics, of cos.

But hey, thanks for the great OP.

Contrail science eh, same could be said about that site, freemasonry.org.




posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by redrose123
reply to post by seabhac-rua
 


They have seeded clouds for years to help it rain. They spray for bugs, they sprayed agent orange in Vietnam. They were talking the other day about spraying people from the sky in order to track them. To deny that there is a history of spraying chemicals from the air a person would have to be in total denial of reality. There are many other uses for spraying like the weather man who was discussing to shield radar. I believe there is evidence to support that scientists have plans if not currently being carried out for geo-enginering. I haven't heard anyone claim that all con-trails are chem-trails. I have noticed that everytime this subject is brought up unlike any other topic that is discussed and how far out there the comments. This is the one that it becomes almost an attack against people who claim that they think there is spraying going on. Which makes me wonder why is it so umportant to squash and and almost intimidate believers. I believe you do protest to much.


Personally I sit on the fence about chemtrails. I do believe the 'geo-engineering' is a reality, however, I believe that most, if not all 'chemtrails' that we see are really contrails.
On the Vietnam issue, yes they sprayed 'Agent Orange' and they tried out a whole slew of various new and whacky inventions and techniques to combat the enemy, most of them didn't work. This is not any evidence that the 'chemtrail' theory is real. Simply stating that they(the military, the government, whoever) has sprayed stuff in the past proves nothing.
My problem is with people who believe these and other theories with only a cursory look at the 'evidence'. I personally, believe me, deal with some of these people on a daily basis. And so far no-one has been able to present to me 100% proof that the 'chemtrail' phenomenon is real. And yes I have looked and looked, and the odds are stacked against it in my opinion. Like I said earlier though, I sit on the fence with this, because as I have stated I do believe the geo-engineering is real, at least in the sense that some people have developed scientific models and have discussed it publicly.
What I fail to see time and time again is 'chemtrail believers' having any rational and objective thoughts on this, and it seems to me that if you watch a youtube video on the subject or listen to Alex Jones then that's enough.
edit on 5-5-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by niceguybob
I know Germany saying the spraying has to stop won't be good enough for you.

But I DID hit search button and found this.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hit the search button. It REALLY works.


This doesn't prove anything other than the German military's exercises are disrupting the local weather patterns!!
Talk about 'wanting to believe'!!!!



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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Hi guys,

I came across this report while searching for information linking contrails and global warming.
It is from the Ends Report , Environmental Intelligence for Professionals, I had to sign up to receive the report so you will not find it at the link provided, only the headline, which you can also find by searching google news.

You would think that during all of the years since global warming has hit the headlines they would have made the link between global warming and contrails a bigger issue.

Here is the report.

Aviation condensation doubles warming

Print Version
ENDS Report 435, April 2011, p. 16
3 May 2011

The world is cloudier and warmer because of aviation. Jet condensation trails – contrails – can spread into high-altitude cirrus clouds. These have a greater warming effect than aviation’s carbon dioxide emissions, claim a team of German atmospheric physicists.

Water vapour in jet engine exhaust condenses into contrails criss-crossing the sky. These contrails have their own warming impact, but it is small because the straight-line clouds only cover a tiny fraction of the earth’s surface.

Research published in the new journal Nature Climate Change shows how these contrails can spread, when weather conditions are just right, into much larger areas of cirrus cloud that would otherwise not have formed.1

The research models the formation and effect of these clouds and shows their warming effect exceeds that of aviation carbon emissions. So aviation’s climate impact is at least double that of CO2 alone.

From next year, aviation emissions will be part of the EU emissions trading scheme. This will be on a CO2-only basis due to doubts in the evidence for non-CO2 warming impacts (see pp 35-36).

Link to Ends Report Page


Also.

Contrails Worse for Climate Change Than Planes’ Carbon Emissions

Air travel has come under fire for its potential contributions to climate change. Most people probably assume that its impact comes through carbon emissions, given that aircraft burn significant amounts of fossil fuel to stay aloft. But the carbon released by air travel remains a relatively minor part of the global output; The impact of planes results from where they burn the fuel, not the mere fact that they burn it.

arstechnica
A study in the brand-new journal Nature Climate Change reinforces that by suggesting that the clouds currently being generated by air travel have a larger impact on the climate than the cumulative emissions of all aircraft ever flown.

That fact isn’t mentioned in the article at all, however (it’s part of a Nature press release on the paper). What the authors do consider is the fact that carbon emissions are only one of the impacts of aviation.

Link to Wired



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Hally Burton
 


Very plausible, good info!


Okay, to make things clearer...
I don't not KNOW if chem trails are used to KILLUSALLOMGITSPOISON but the idea of it is not impossible.
I do know although that this field has been researched and tested and for various reason and pretty much all the time, barium salt was present and it is poison to us.
It is proven that since it's a metal, it helps to either get info from the tested zone more easily or it can/could be used to send transmissions from farther without resorting to satellites.

Just like any conspiracy, it's just a plausible possibility. And to deny that is it a POSSIBILITY on a CONSPIRACY internet forum, is just weird.

I guess I should have my self clearer at first, but you guys are denying it like the kings denied the earth was round.

Hey, I don't believe in tin hats, but I believe in "live and let be" and "let it go"



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by Hally Burton
 


Yes....have seen those reports, and bringing them to these (many) "chem"-trail threads gets tiresome, so glad someone else did.

Again....they refer to the contrails, a "necessary evil"(?) consequence of modern technology....AKA flying by jet airplane. Whether they (contrails) are truly as "bad" as suggested in those papers, I am not so convinced.

Two things about high-altitude cloud cover:

  • It is transient, in the long term....does not last permanently.

  • Clouds, from above, are reflective....they increase the albedo of the surface (much like snow) .... this, during daylight, of course. Hence, a bit less heating. Conversely, after sundown, when aloft they can act as a sort of thermal blanket, trapping accumulated heat energy, to prevent radiation into the upper atmosphere, and into space.



But, with point number 1...I think, maybe, those reports are a bit over-stated.

Additionally.....when you actually LOOK at the tiny fraction of the Earth's surface that is actually flown over, by airplanes, and thus subject to contrails, and persistent could cover as a result (allowing for wind drift, yes....but, the "footprint" remains about the same....meager):



As you can see, the vast majority of the planet is not covered, very much at all, by airplane traffic ---- The Oceans!!!

Somewhere around ~75% of our planet's surface is Ocean.....and the flights over-water are few and far between...

Furthermore, in terms of Solar radiative heating....again, this is more prominent nearer the Equator. Depending on season, mostly between the Tropic of Capricorn to the Tropic of Cancer, those latitudes. At far Northern or Southern latitudes there is mush less heating by the Sun, of course (that's why it's cold in Antarctica, and Siberia and Scandinavia, etc....).



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by bhornbuckle75
 


Believe it or not I found this interesting article about a drunk pilot admitting to the spraying of chemtrails who he works for and some other good info

www.2012theawakening.com...



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by joelatour
 



....a drunk pilot admitting to the spraying of chemtrails ....


Yeah, right....you "found" that. SO have others. AND, I've seen it (and similar garbage) many times, already.

Because....it is FAKE!!!

These charlatans that keep pushing the hoax of "chem"-trails will stop at nothing.....this is one of their own creations.

AND, of course.....following the link YOU posted, at this time (they alter their web pages, sometimes) the primary photo is of a bunch of RETIRED and PARKED airliners. In STORAGE.

Really.....the only reason any of this "chem"-trail Bovine Fecal Matter ( BFM ® ) continues to fool the gullible out there is because they have NO knowledge and experience of real aviation......


There are dozens of aircraft "boneyards" scattered about.....in deserts. Quite a few in the American Southwest.

Here is a compelling, poignant video made by an American Airlines pilot as he and his colleague were delivering yet another MD-80 to be scrapped....parted out, cannibalized, scavenged....and ultimately recycled.

This time, at a field near Roswell, NM....(Yes, that infamous Roswell. NO UFOs, though, sadly....):

edit on 5 May 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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Titling that report "Aviation condensation doubles warming" is rather misleading. The report only suggests that the warming effect from contrails is twice that of the warming effect from the CO2 in those contrail, not total globals CO2 emissions. Aviation CO2 is only a small fraction (3%) of total global CO2.

The amount that contrails contribute to climate forcing (global warming) is really unknown, and estimates are int he range of 2% to 14%. The possibility that it's at the high end of that range makes it well worth investigating. But it's not "doubling warming".

Refs:
www.nature.com...
www.nature.com...
And check the "related content" on either of those.






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