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Obama took SIXTEEN HOURS to make up his mind about Bin Laden mission

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posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by Intelearthling
 


I agree. I highly doubt we'd go into the building without 100% knowledge that he was there. If we rolled the dice on this, and he wasn't there, we'd be taking several giant steps backward in the hunt for OBL.




posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 

All reports I've read are indicating that even when the raid went down they were only at 60%-80% certainty. Have you seen anything official that said the certainty was anything over that?

Edit to add: I found this that says 99.9% certainty www.newsday.com... but even still, that could have come at the last moment, or perhaps even 16 hours before. Who knows. We never will.

But I still would again would say that 1.) there was no time critical element here unless there is one that they're ever going to tell us about and 2.) at the potentially changing certainty level, there certainly was a lot to think about (or meditate over), particularly since, as you said, there were children there.

And as for the part about women and children,at least it seems like (whether it was real or not) they took steps to not hurt them. Doing a raid vs using a missile, for example.And at least none were hurt too seriously (aside from the psychological..again, if this was real).

edit on 5/5/2011 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by Intelearthling
On the contrary. The mission wouldn't have never happened especially without letting the Pakistani government have knowledge beforehand.

Intelligence had it right and they knew, not thought, that Osama was present in the compound. Sending combatants into an "off limits" area on hearsay was not the purpose of this mission. Getting proof of bin Ladens death the show the world was.

If there was any questions of whether it was Osama, drones would've been sent in.



It is fun to just say things you think and hope other people will eat it up unquestioned right? Every report I have seen has clearly stated that after months of observation there was still NO VISUAL CONFIRMATION that Osama was in there until the Seals actually went in and found him. Were they pretty sure? Obviously. Sorry if I choose to take the word of military commanders over some anonymous poster on ATS. You forgot to post your credentials that would explain what role you played in this to correct the reports I have been hearing.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by Intelearthling
 


I agree. I highly doubt we'd go into the building without 100% knowledge that he was there. If we rolled the dice on this, and he wasn't there, we'd be taking several giant steps backward in the hunt for OBL.



Seems like a decision as hard to make as that might take about 16 hours or more to mull over then.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by Sinnthia
 

All reports I've read are indicating that even when the raid went down they were only at 60%-80% certainty. Have you seen anything official that said the certainty was anything over that?

Edit to add: I found this that says 99.9% certainty www.newsday.com... but even still, that could have come at the last moment, or perhaps even 16 hours before. Who knows. We never will.


Looks like we have been hearing the same news. No one was 100% until the seals went in. I am not sure why it is so hard to get all these other chairforce 1 commandos to explain how it should have gone differently.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:29 PM
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How is it a Perfect job that he has done with this osama thing?

First off for those saying he did exactly the right thing the right way etc..... Don't you think it's a little early in the game to saying that when we don't know ANYWHERE CLOSE to even part of the story?

Now the one thing I will say is the 16 hours thing is very much understandable. And if thats how things actually went down then I commend Obama on not rushing into a situation that, from what little we do know or can extrapolate, was a VERY COMPLEX situation!

Now there are parts of the mission and etc that do make me worry a little, and honestly I have this nagging feeling that we may have just attacked Osama while he was under house arrest by the ISI. (ISI is the pakistani equivalent of the CIA)

I am allowed to have these doubts as are anyone else who has them... It's not because we are racist or because we are republicans (I am neither rep nor dem I think both suck personally). I do have lots of questions and I feel like we are being treated to another Rumsfeld like silence and unwillingness to convey information that really wouldn't compromise anything vital to release!

ALL of this from someone who during his campaign ripped at Bush jr for not being transparent enough!!

The funny thing is Obama supporters get upset when people point out that considering what he said to get elected we have a RIGHT to judge him by a different standard than we judged bush Jr!!

He campaigned on the idea that he would be an order of magnitude better than the republican offering, and yet here we are as taxpayers still being treated like mushrooms! (they feed us sh** and keep us in the dark!)

Obama told us we COULD AND SHOULD expect better than the last administration and yet his supporters now call it a VICTORY and expect no one to complain when Obama does the Exact same thing as the man he replaced! This is extraordinarily underwhelming when he stated all throughout his campaign that his plan was to be Miles ahead of the bush whitehouse!

So Obama fans what gives? Why is it that we can't criticize him for not following through in the SLIGHTEST with his transparency promises? What gives with us not being able to criticize for his other behaviors all of which are basically indicators of business as usual from the candidate that said there would be NO COMPARISON between him and Shrub?



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by roguetechie
Obama told us we COULD AND SHOULD expect better than the last administration and yet his supporters now call it a VICTORY and expect no one to complain when Obama does the Exact same thing as the man he replaced! This is extraordinarily underwhelming when he stated all throughout his campaign that his plan was to be Miles ahead of the bush whitehouse!


Bush gave up on even thinking about Osama long before he even left Office. Obama stated in the beginning that he would redirect efforts to hunting down Osama. Bush took a year and a half to invade the wrong country. Obama took 16 hours to get the right guy.

Want to bash him on transparency, I bet I would agree with you in a thread about that.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by SinnthiaLooks like we have been hearing the same news. No one was 100% until the seals went in. I am not sure why it is so hard to get all these other chairforce 1 commandos to explain how it should have gone differently.


Sure, we are going to admit we had eyes on the target in a foreign nation and compromise a source to assuage the people's doubts. Keep telling yourself that... believe nothing from the Bush administration but accept blindly everything from a Obama. Obamabots - engage!

Making the odds seem more grave added credence to the delay in his decision and act as a cover (thus the covert nature of HUMINT) for the human asset we had on the ground so he/she doesn't die.

Zoom to the Press room…

Golly gee Wally; that was a hard call and we didn’t even know for sure but the Big O called it for sure won’t the Beaver be proud? He is amazing without his critical thought we’d be sunk!

Cut Scene of Obamabot HQ…

Quick to Ground Zero in the bat mobile so we can bask in our royal hypocritical glory as we accept the applause of the commoners all the while they are unaware we used every technique from the Bush playbook (the very ones that made us rend our cloaks and wail in loud vocal opposition) that made this mission a success…

Obama's a douche - I have explained the terms to you and the process ad nausium; go/no-go time is well past considering the obvious it’s for any adjustment to last minute changes from the surveillance assets on the objective.

You don’t engage assets of this caliber and size on a chance…not even for OBL.

Mayhaps something was amiss - we will never know likely; however, the indecision maker in chief gets no benefit of a doubt from me based on his past record.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Golf66
Sure, we are going to admit we had eyes on the target in a foreign nation and compromise a source to assuage the people's doubts. Keep telling yourself that... believe nothing from the Bush administration but accept blindly everything from a Obama. Obamabots - engage!


If you have something better than your own personal doubt, what's the holdup? You cannot convince me to just agree with you because you say so. As far as trusting nothing from Bush and everything from Obama, you are way off. I am not getting my news from Obama. I am also not a truther. So you go ahead and tell me who I trust and who I do not trust. HINT: Anonymous ATS posters with no facts, just opinions is not very convincing.

What intel do you have?


Making the odds seem more grave added credence to the delay in his decision and act as a cover (thus the covert nature of HUMINT) for the human asset we had on the ground so he/she doesn't die.


Uh...ok.


Zoom to the Press room…

Golly gee Wally; that was a hard call and we didn’t even know for sure but the Big O called it for sure won’t the Beaver be proud? He is amazing without his critical thought we’d be sunk!

Cut Scene of Obamabot HQ…

Quick to Ground Zero in the bat mobile


Batmobile? I am really not following this at all.


so we can bask in our royal hypocritical glory as we accept the applause of the commoners all the while they are unaware we used every technique from the Bush playbook (the very ones that made us rend our cloaks and wail in loud vocal opposition) that made this mission a success…

Obama's a douche - I have explained the terms to you and the process ad nausium; go/no-go time is well past considering the obvious it’s for any adjustment to last minute changes from the surveillance assets on the objective.

You don’t engage assets of this caliber and size on a chance…not even for OBL.

Mayhaps something was amiss - we will never know likely; however, the indecision maker in chief gets no benefit of a doubt from me based on his past record.


Lost of opinions and few that make any sense and zero facts. Thank you.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by Crakeur
 


Originally posted by Crakeur
Do you not think that a politician, when making an important decision, doesn't wonder how it will impact their reelection bid or their approval rating?


Oh, I absolutely do! I'm sure Obama has thought about how this will affect his chances for reelection, but as I said in another thread, if that was a factor in his timing, I think he would have waited till sometime next summer or fall, when it would have mattered. I don't think the "Bin Laden bump" will last but a month or maybe two, if that.

I can understand wanting to sleep on the biggest decision of his career so far and maybe his life. We have to consider, he didn't know how this was going to come out. With hindsight, it's easy to say, "Why didn't he just GO"? But a LOT was at stake. People's lives, not to mention his career and his own personal conscience. I understand that you think it's odd. But I think it's quite understandable to consider this decision overnight, make sure all the bases are covered and that it has the best chance of being successful.



Add to that the idea that capturing or killing him will make him seem a million times more effective than the prior administration, thus bettering his chances for a second term and it's the biggest no brainer ever.


The election is a year and a half away. Sixteen hours one way or another isn't going to make a difference.



Do you think he took 16 hours to meditate on whether or not he wanted to destroy Trump in that speech?


No. I think he went over the speech, had dinner, spend some time with his kids and Michelle, maybe had a cocktail and then went to bed. I don't know that he meditated at all. You keep saying that he meditated for 16 hours, but I have yet to see that he spent 16 hours in meditation.



I don't think he should have cancelled anything. I simply don't buy that this all went down in the time frame they're giving us and, with each day we learn that more of their original story was fabricated and it is starting to look like they are reading the comments and altering their story to further suit the public.


I'm on the fence as to how this went down and will probably always be. The media has been all over the place with the story, I'll give you that. But that happens any time any huge story breaks. In their rush to be the first to report, assumptions are made, lines of communications are crossed and "fog of war" stories are the first to come out. In my research to find the discrepancies, I have found the media reporting something and then the White House comes and corrects it. I have yet to see the White House directly report something and then take it back.

Thank you for responding.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by ShaunHatfield
 


Race baiter alert...

2nd



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


As I plainly stated in my first comment my main issue with the whole operation is this:



Now there are parts of the mission and etc that do make me worry a little, and honestly I have this nagging feeling that we may have just attacked Osama while he was under house arrest by the ISI. (ISI is the pakistani equivalent of the CIA)



We quite simply don't have the information now, nor will we ever have it most likely, to say CONCLUSIVELY one way or another whether things happened the way we are told for one. Or whether the story IN REALITY bears any resemblance to the story we've been TOLD!

This is why I have a problem with the Unrelenting praise and cheerleading! I think there are very valid reasons why this gift horse should be looked in the mouth VERY VERY CLOSELY!!

The possible ramifications of this whole saga if it did go down in a way that angers the pakistani government (in private of course because they aren't going to say too much publicly one way or the other) could be IMMENSE. And this alone to me is reason enough to question this whole event!

I'm sorry if my CRITICAL THINKING is ruining some people's Good mood but it's pretty stinkin important that we don't give in to the propaganda side of this and let it override our good judgement.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


this isn't a little something that could have been used to push him to the election. This is huge and won't be forgotten but the key thing that I think you're missing with regards to what I'm saying:

if it was such a big deal to take out bin laden. if he was such a wanted man, who we've been hunting for a decade, if he was our #1 most wanted man, if it would turn your aprroval rating around, help people forget about the economic woes, the plummetting dollar etc.

WHAT took 16 hours to decide? Why on earth did it take him so long to say "go for it" on a total no brainer?


(Of course, I'm assuming that OBL was alive and living in the compound, that he is/was the bogey man he was made out to be etc. )



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by roguetechie
reply to post by Sinnthia
 


As I plainly stated in my first comment my main issue with the whole operation is this:



Now there are parts of the mission and etc that do make me worry a little, and honestly I have this nagging feeling that we may have just attacked Osama while he was under house arrest by the ISI. (ISI is the pakistani equivalent of the CIA)



We quite simply don't have the information now, nor will we ever have it most likely, to say CONCLUSIVELY one way or another whether things happened the way we are told for one. Or whether the story IN REALITY bears any resemblance to the story we've been TOLD!


I guess I am not sure why your point matters. Pakistan has made no such claim before or since. They have been saying they had no clue he was there. Where do you get your fear from?


This is why I have a problem with the Unrelenting praise and cheerleading! I think there are very valid reasons why this gift horse should be looked in the mouth VERY VERY CLOSELY!!


Unrelenting? I am having a really hard time finding even one post where I praised or cheerled about any of this.


The possible ramifications of this whole saga if it did go down in a way that angers the pakistani government (in private of course because they aren't going to say too much publicly one way or the other) could be IMMENSE. And this alone to me is reason enough to question this whole event!


So you think they should have left Osama alone? We have been hunting him for a decade. I think it is a little late to start crying about how he should be left alone.


I'm sorry if my CRITICAL THINKING is ruining some people's Good mood but it's pretty stinkin important that we don't give in to the propaganda side of this and let it override our good judgement.


Critical thinking? You mean fears based on assumptions? That is what you just gave me. Critical thinking is something else.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
WHAT took 16 hours to decide? Why on earth did it take him so long to say "go for it" on a total no brainer?


I am gettting sick of asking this but even more sick of not getting an answer.

What should he have done at minute 1. What did they know? What was ready? What was the window of opportunity. If you are all going to keep saying that 16 hours is too long then why cant any of you say what was going on that would have helped you make the call sooner?

exactly 30 seconds into that 16 hours, was everything ready to go? All ramifications weighed? Please explain. Please?



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
if it was such a big deal to take out bin laden. if he was such a wanted man, who we've been hunting for a decade, if he was our #1 most wanted man, if it would turn your aprroval rating around, help people forget about the economic woes, the plummetting dollar etc.

WHAT took 16 hours to decide? Why on earth did it take him so long to say "go for it" on a total no brainer?


I don't think there was a decision to make. The decision was already made. He wanted to sleep on it. This is what I imagine. He had all his ducks in a row and he was ready to go... but he gets ONE chance. ONE chance only. He is going to give the order to kill the most wanted man in the world (assuming all the same things that you're assuming, of course)... People are going to die. This is it. The biggest action of his career and life. Another day or two or three isn't going to make a difference in the outcome...

Now, might you want to just think it all out once more, see if you've forgotten anything? The buck is going to stop in his lap and you don't understand him wanting to sleep on it? Think about the repercussions, how the world is going to take this. Might you want to get your head wrapped around going forward before you give the order?

I totally understand it.

Besides, what would people be saying now if he had been joking at the dinner while OBL was being killed... having given the order? "Shouldn't he have canceled that dinner and been watching the troops"?? It's very possible that's why he decided to wait till the morning to give the order.

Thing is, we can't say for sure. We never will know. But it's fun to speculate. But that's all it is.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Or this account is the truth.

If it is, Valerie Jarrett needs to go now, or obama needs to quit pretending he's in charge at the White House.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by roguetechie
 


Oh...they might be angry already...and in public too. Hell, haven't they been angry with us for a while now (drones, our saying their nukes are not secure, Aghanistan border skirmishes), despite the billions we give to some of them


Afghan ministry says Pakistan should have known bin Laden was [there].
Pakistan warns America not to stage any more raids.

And oh, by the way, our local news actually had a story on about the billions we send Pakistan today. They've never done that and I suspect we'll be seeing a ratcheting up of these types of stories as the sentiment needs to turn against Pakistan, because seeing as they're on the path to our goal...they have to bow down or go down.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by Golf66
24 years of service in the Army of which most was spent as first an Infantryman then a Special Forces Engineer Sergeant, a Team Leader and a Company Commander I think I have a little perspective of what was being discussed. Been on a few raids, planed and lead many more and watched more than I care to from a helmet cam.


I know we will disagree on this topic but I commend your dedication to our armed services.

Having said that- did you happen serve with Bush Jr and/or Obama as your CIC?


You don't put men in foriegn nations (an allied one at that) without thier permission no less in stealthed birds for 70% odds - I think I have made my point there.


And what were the odds that Iraq had WMD when we went in there? Did we have their permission? Or better yet the odds that Saddam was connected to 9/11 in any way? Do we know how long it took Bush to make the decision to go in?

And of course when you say "allied", you mean in it the loosest sense of the word, ya?





Making the decision to kill a man or woman for that matter is not an easy one. I think about every one of them still and will till the day I die - from the times I actually pulled the trigger to the times I have ordered it done. Air strikes, artillery, sniper kills, and simple assaults I've seen and done them all one round at a time and 100 bomblets at a time... I make no excuses for my actions and I know not all of them were even the best ones but none of them took 16 hours to make.


I respect that. And I would certainly hope it didn't take you 16 hours to pull a trigger. But I think it's safe to say you weren't faced with any scenario remotely close to that of what Obama was faced with. A decision that could have very severe consequences if it had gone all wrong.

I'm not sure why we're nit picking the 16 hours though. The man is dead. Done. Gone. And I'm ok with that. Mission accomplished. Could care less how long it took.

The way I see it is there wasn't an absolute immediate urgency to make the call. But the call was right in the end. Shouldn't that be all that matters?
edit on 5-5-2011 by PhotonEffect because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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What does that matter? 16 hours seems reasonable when you concider the implications involving Pakistan.

What's 16 hours to kill the guy or 10 years looking for him when you can publish a book (granted an e-book) just 7 days after the killing. I know journalists and academics are used to writing quickly, but...wow. And I don't really watch the daily show, but Stewart just interviewed Jon Meacham about a book they've put together on life after bin Laden.

I'm curious what they have written so quickly and what they have to say that is so poignant and urgent.




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