Dear "agnostics": You're atheists, get over it.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Secondaly, my argument is highlighting unfalsifiable theories. Whether or not you caught your mother is of no relevance here.

well if proof doesn't matter what does?



atheist claim there is no god which is a positive claim prove to me there is no god.

reply to post by Doublemint


Atheism isn't about claiming there is no deity. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a deity.

That's probably been mentioned before....

reply to post by Doublemint


Madness has already explained the difference between believing not, and not believing.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Doublemint

 

Madness has already explained the difference between believing not, and not believing.

edit on 11/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

no he hasn't

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Doublemint

 

Atheism isn't about claiming there is no deity. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a deity.

That's probably been mentioned before....

then explain it

reply to post by Doublemint


Magical pixies exist, there is no way to prove me right or wrong because i'm careful to add that they only appear when there are no humans around to observe.

Just because it's unprovable, doesn't make the "i don't know" middle ground approach any more rational than the claim itself.

You'll just ask me to explain over and over again, you don't care for reasonable discussion, it's obvious.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


and I believe the same about you.

reply to post by Doublemint


Where's your argument? Your posts are just conjecture and speculation, and a blind attack of someone's argument without an attempt to rationalise your argument.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

There is no grey choice here. I'm not creating a false dilemma, which is what you're trying to imply. Unless you can show me that there is a third option in the question: "Do you believe in a deity?" other than "yes" or "no"

Your question reminds me of a Catholic friend, demanding to know, when I was 16, whether I believed in abortion or was against it. She couldn't cope with my stance of not knowing enough to have an opinion on the matter. She couldn't see why not knowing should be barrier to form an opinion. However much atheists say they simply don't believe, the fact is they have formed an opinion on the matter, and that opinion is there is no god. This is what differentiates atheists from agnostics, who are open minded to the possibilities, and who consequently are not interested in dissing those who hold spiritual beliefs.

Of course there is a third choice.
It's "I don't know, but I have an open mind on the subject."

I've never yet met an atheist who has an open mind on the subject.
In fact, I know of a particular site, frequented by yourself along with other atheists, whose sole purpose is to laugh at theists.

I've known and respected many atheists, and even loved some, but I've never yet met one who did not look down on everyone who had spiritual beliefs. Like many theists, I forgive them this arrogant attitude because this world needs rationalists and sceptics, but it does frustrate communication.

On the other hand, agnostics I've known are willing to listen to both sides with an open mind, rather than assuming someone who has had a spiritual experience must be lying or hallucinating.

It might feel smart to assume that what many people have experienced must be untrue because it hasn't happened to you, but it does come across as blinkered and narrow-minded to many agnostics, as well as to people with a spiritual aspect to their lives.

Sorry, but your attempt to divide the world into two camps shows a lack of acknowledgement of the ability of people to both not know and be open minded. There are many shades of grey between the black and white in this area.

It's "I don't know, but I have an open mind on the subject."

We admit our agnosticism- but we don't have any (current) evidence to warrant a belief. (yet)

"Agnostic Atheism"

also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such

Most atheist's don't state that it can't be proved, only that so far it has not been proved and the evidence should rest on those making the postive claim.

Agnosticism doesn't prevent someone from disbelieving positive claims.

Are you teapot agnostic?

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Originally posted by Kailassa
However much atheists say they simply don't believe, the fact is they have formed an opinion on the matter, and that opinion is there is no god.

Wrong - - I spent 60 years looking for god - - before I chose to be Atheist.

I've never yet met an atheist who has an open mind on the subject.
In fact, I know of a particular site, frequented by yourself along with other atheists, whose sole purpose is to laugh at theists.

Childish behavior works on both sides. Plenty of Christians who laugh and pity Atheists.

. . . . . but I've never yet met one who did not look down on everyone who had spiritual beliefs. Like many theists, I forgive them this arrogant attitude because this world needs rationalists and skeptics.

What? I don't need forgiveness. Why would I discuss god when I have no interest. Not my problem you get your feelings hurt - - because I don't want to hear about your spiritual belief.

The only reason believers discuss god with Atheists - - is because they can't accept it - - and want to convert them.

No thanks.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

It's "I don't know, but I have an open mind on the subject."

We admit our agnosticism- but we don't have any (current) evidence to warrant a belief. (yet)

"Agnostic Atheism"

also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such

Most atheist's don't state that it can't be proved, only that so far it has not been proved and the evidence should rest on those making the postive claim.

Perhaps that's where you stand, but in my experience atheists believe that anyone who speaks of a personal spiritual experience is either mendacious or delusional. I understand and respect the position of not being convinced by experiences which you have not shared, but I do not respect the scorn atheists show toward people who report such personal experiences.

Agnosticism doesn't prevent someone from disbelieving positive claims.

If you believe all positive claims to be false you are not an agnostic, you are an atheist.

Are you teapot agnostic?

Hardly.
I'm a non-religious person who has been lucky enough to experience god as a lifetime friend, and who has had experiences which prove the falsity of the rationalistic material view of the world. I do not expect to convince anyone of my experiences, but I wonder about people who are certain that, because they have not experienced them, they must be false.

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Yes, we all know the atheist's analogy between the orbiting teapot and god.
Tell me, how many people claim to have personally experienced this teapot?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Kailassa
However much atheists say they simply don't believe, the fact is they have formed an opinion on the matter, and that opinion is there is no god.

Wrong - - I spent 60 years looking for god - - before I chose to be Atheist.

Are you saying it is not your opinion that there is no god?
If that is not your opinion, why do you call yourself an atheist?

I've never yet met an atheist who has an open mind on the subject.
In fact, I know of a particular site, frequented by yourself along with other atheists, whose sole purpose is to laugh at theists.

Childish behavior works on both sides. Plenty of Christians who laugh and pity Atheists.

I agree.
I've a reputation for siding with the atheists on ATS because they tend to be more rational and courteous than the types of Christians who attack them.
However I dislike anyone trying to make me believe what they believe, or disbelieve, whichever side of the fence they are standing on.

. . . . . but I've never yet met one who did not look down on everyone who had spiritual beliefs. Like many theists, I forgive them this arrogant attitude because this world needs rationalists and skeptics.

What? I don't need forgiveness. Why would I discuss god when I have no interest. Not my problem you get your feelings hurt - - because I don't want to hear about your spiritual belief.

I never suggested my feelings were hurt or you needed my forgiveness. Neither have I made any attempt to inform you of my beliefs.

The only reason believers discuss god with Atheists - - is because they can't accept it - - and want to convert them.

I don't discuss god with atheists unless they bring the matter up with me. But please don't let that stop you assuming everyone fits your notion of reality.

Originally posted by Kailassa

Are you saying it is not your opinion that there is no god?
If that is not your opinion, why do you call yourself an atheist?

Oh - is this a trick question? Agnostic/Atheist

Agnostic - I have no knowledge of a god - therefore I don't know.
Atheist - lack of proof - lack of belief in a deity.

However I dislike anyone trying to make me believe what they believe, or disbelieve, whichever side of the fence they are standing on.

So do I.

I don't discuss god with atheists unless they bring the matter up with me.

When do Atheists bring up god to you?

Seems to me there would need to be a discussion of god first.

Hmmmmmm - Arrogant. Often an emotional response to stating facts.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Kailassa

Are you saying it is not your opinion that there is no god?
If that is not your opinion, why do you call yourself an atheist?

Oh - is this a trick question? Agnostic/Atheist

Agnostic - I have no knowledge of a god - therefore I don't know.
Atheist - lack of proof - lack of belief in a deity.

No, it was not a trick question, and it was asked out of interest, not animosity.
You denied having a certain opinion, and I was interested to hear what your opinion was.
I already know the definitions quoted.

I don't discuss god with atheists unless they bring the matter up with me.

When do Atheists bring up god to you?
Seems to me there would need to be a discussion of god first.

IRL I've often had atheists raise the question of god with me, either ridiculing those with beliefs or wanting to make sure I was a good rational atheist like themselves.
Online the threads in which I've mentioned my beliefs to atheists have been the ones which atheists have started in order to discuss beliefs.

Hmmmmmm - Arrogant. Often an emotional response to stating facts.

Yes, arrogance can be that.

OK - first I apologize for any attitude that may have been unwarranted.

Originally posted by Kailassa
IRL I've often had atheists raise the question of god with me, either ridiculing those with beliefs or wanting to make sure I was a good rational atheist like themselves.

OK - - in real life I have never met another Atheist. Where do you meet and have conversations with Atheists?

IMO - - they tend to mind there own business - - unless its a specific event.

reply to post by Kailassa

Perhaps that's where you stand, but in my experience atheists believe that anyone who speaks of a personal spiritual experience is either mendacious or delusional.

Atheism is lack of belief in a deity. No more. There are "spiritual Atheists" out there.

but I do not respect the scorn atheists show toward people who report such personal experiences.

It's not scorn. It's that it's intellectually bankrupt in terms of debate. I've had many experiences where i have been "mistaken" - Or perhaps i was drunk, or on drugs. It's not that individual people are untrustworthy, just that, again, it's not progressive for debate, and can sometimes be an inaccurate perception of the truth.

If you believe all positive claims to be false you are not an agnostic, you are an atheist.

Agnosticisim/Gnosticism - What you know
Atheism/Theism - What you believe

Just because i'm agnostic, doesn't mean i can't disbelieve theories that have been formed without any evidence (empirical or logical)

Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[1] Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists.

I do not expect to convince anyone of my experience

Neither do i, i don't expect anyone to present a convincing argument using subjective experience.

but I wonder about people who are certain that, because they have not experienced them, they must be false.

Again, a misunderstanding between Gnostic Atheism and Agnostic Atheism. Atheism doesn't mean you have to declare that there are no Gods. Again, Atheism is a lack of belief in a theory.

Agnostic Atheists have a lack of belief based on what they know. They don't know what's behind the material world, so anyone making a positive claim is conjuring or relying on subjective experience, which again, is not reliable in experiments or debate.

Yes, we all know the atheist's analogy between the orbiting teapot and god.

Well again, it highlights the unfalsifiable nature of the Theist's positive claims. And the reasoning behind the Atheists disbelief.

"There is a teapot on pluto but we can't prove it" - I'm an agnostic teapot atheist. Provide evidence and i'll renounce my atheism of the teapot.

Existence, or reality is not evidence of supernatural involvement, or causality. It may be, if the deity exists, but there's no reason to assume a being, there could be many other possibilities.

edit on 11/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Annee
OK - first I apologize for any attitude that may have been unwarranted.

No worries. I've got a lot of respect for you, Annee, and I understand where you're coming from. A lot of belittling takes place on these boards, so it's easy to be expecting more of it.

Originally posted by Kailassa
IRL I've often had atheists raise the question of god with me, either ridiculing those with beliefs or wanting to make sure I was a good rational atheist like themselves.

OK - - in real life I have never met another Atheist. Where do you meet and have conversations with Atheists?

IMO - - they tend to mind there own business - - unless its a specific event.

I'm an Aussie, and atheists who preach are as common here as religious people who do the same. Though at least atheists don't wake me up at 8am Sundays to convert me. Funnily, the J.W.s haven't been back since I gave them a few lines of an "appropriate" song by one of Australia's renowned Evil Atheists. Being more relaxed than many cultures, perhaps Aussies feel more free to be loud and critical and put other people's beliefs down to their faces, because most arguments here are settled by sharing joke and a few beers. It's like politics, where most arguments end with a laugh about the idiocy of politicians in general.

I guess heritage has a lot of influence on culture. I've a religious American friend who is proud to be a descendent of an early pilgrim. I'm proud to be a descendent of a prostitute and a thief who were deported here 300 or so years back. Times were tough back then, and they carved out a farm which became a settlement, and begat a family of sturdy survivors.

My most recent encounter with an argumentative atheist was at a party were a stranger decided to noisily ridicule belief in god to me in the belief everyone there was "intelligent enough" to admire his opinions. I won't pretend to be what I'm not, so I told him he'd mistaken me for a non-believer. Whereupon he really got stuck into me for being stupid and gullible, and got started on the orbiting teapots, expecting people to laugh at me for not being an atheist. The funny thing was, it was him being laughed at when he loudly asked me out on a date, and just couldn't understand that I was turning him down.

I'm all for live and let live. I've never had a wish to get people around me to share my outlook. On the contrary, they're My beliefs and you're not having them. Who wants to be one of a crowd anyway? I've always thought people out to convert others are trying to make up, through numbers, for their individual lack of belief in their stated dogma. - And I appreciate people who extend me the same courtesy.

Originally posted by Kailassa
My most recent encounter with an argumentative atheist was at a party were a stranger decided to noisily ridicule belief in god to me in the belief everyone there was "intelligent enough" to admire his opinions.

Yeah - but that's just a know-it-all obnoxious person at a party. He can believe whatever he wants - - as long as he stays on the opposite side of the room.

I would definitely rather be descended from thieves and prostitutes - - then these annoying puritans.

Australians are the best to party with. They know how to have a good time - - without expecting anything - - except a good party.

The thing is - - who cares what someone else says. When I post - I try to just give my opinion. I rarely debate - - because its like "ping pong".

I would consider myself a Spiritual Atheist of a sort. It depends on what Spiritual is.

Its true there are Hard Core Atheists - - but I don't find them any different then Fundamentalist who think their interpretation is the only true belief.

I just tell them I have my own belief - - then don't tell them what that belief is.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Kailassa
My most recent encounter with an argumentative atheist was at a party were a stranger decided to noisily ridicule belief in god to me in the belief everyone there was "intelligent enough" to admire his opinions.

Yeah - but that's just a know-it-all obnoxious person at a party. He can believe whatever he wants - - as long as he stays on the opposite side of the room.

Now if he'd done that, instead of playing the octopus and trying to convince me I should date him, I'd have forgotten him by the next day.

I would definitely rather be descended from thieves and prostitutes - - then these annoying puritans.

Well, both lots knew how to work hard and survive, but the puritans couldn't party, dance or drink to celebrate the completion of another week's work, so I guess they had to find alternative entertainment, such as checking up on everyone's morals to make sure no-one else was enjoying themselves either. But I still admire anyone who works hard and makes do in the difficult circumstances settlers had in those days.

Australians are the best to party with. They know how to have a good time - - without expecting anything - - except a good party.

You'd have loved the parties we had up bush in my younger days. The local hall would be hired for a token sum, the locals would spontaneously form a band, all the women baked and the men brought the booze, and we'd dance till midnight. Doing anything after midnight other than getting to bed was unheard of.

The thing is - - who cares what someone else says. When I post - I try to just give my opinion. I rarely debate - - because its like "ping pong".

I would consider myself a Spiritual Atheist of a sort. It depends on what Spiritual is.

I love learning about other people's opinions and ideas, because everyone is so different.
I guess the definition of spiritual depends on a person's experiences and perceptions. This is where we have to look a little past the words, because everyone has their own interpretations.

Its true there are Hard Core Atheists - - but I don't find them any different then Fundamentalist who think their interpretation is the only true belief.

I just tell them I have my own belief - - then don't tell them what that belief is.

Yes, anyone who wants to impose their view on you is worth avoiding, whatever those view are.