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Dear "agnostics": You're atheists, get over it.

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posted on May, 10 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Abandon ship?

I'm not the one who's making his own definitions up.


Oh, you mean madness? I thought you agreed with him though?


I tried to use the dictionary earlier, but madness rejected it. Any stated definition is simply an argument from authority, and definitions for words must have "reasons" behind them, according to madness. So we have both now given logically identical arguments to back our positions, and should be in total agreement.



Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, Christianity is belief in a deity, AND that deities wishes. Atheism and Christianity are not the same.


But atheism and Christianity both share a belief that cannot be proven, ie either the definite existence or definite non-existence of a God. Therefore they are the same thing. Just like when you say agnostics and atheists share a lack of belief, and therefore they are the same too. It is equal "reasoning."


You can't have a double-standard here, and say the reasoning is okay for you (two things share a similarity and are thus the same thing) but not for me (two things share a similarity and are thus the same thing).




The title of this thread could have as well have been,

"Dear "atheists": You're Christians get over it."

edit on 10-5-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 10 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I provided an argument to back up my claims, you have done nothing of the sort.


Yes I have.

Christians believe there is a God. Atheists believe there is no God. Neither can be proven.


Well, you got the first part right...but clearly you've been ignoring my posts. Atheists do not believe in any deity, some take the further step into gnostic or "strong" atheism and say that there are no deities.



Due to that similarity, therefore Christians and atheists are the same.


...except...no. I mean, that's not just an informal logical fallacy, it's a formal fallacy.



This is the exact same as your reasoning, which I must simultaneously agree with:


No, it isn't. You're saying the use of the same verb makes them equivalent, I'm saying the use of the same description makes them equivalent. If two things are described as the same thing then they are the same thing. Need I trot out the ol' duck cliche?



Agnostics don't have a belief in God. Atheists also don't have a belief in God. They both share a lack of belief.


According to you, due to this similarity, therefore atheists and agnostics are the same.


I don't know why you're putting only 'don't' in bold, seeing as those statements share 5 other words in common that are in sequence and have the exact same meaning. You're drawing a false comparison.



Seriously, a two-year-old can see that the reasoning you and I are now using, is identical.


Hey, it's the informal "even a child can see this!" fallacy (there's a more technical name for it that I can't remember).

Most two-year-olds are stupid. I've demonstrated that the two sets of reasoning are not identical.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Doublemint
 


It's two separate negative statements, not a double negative.

"I do not know. I also do not believe." That is not a double negative. A double negative would be "I do not not believe".



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Doublemint
if you would look and understand what manessinmysoul is saying here what I'm saying would make more since.

How can some one not claim that there isn't a diety but still not believe. its a double negative meaning that there is a diety they just dont believe in it, but why would you assume that there is a diety if you are not going to believe in it to me that just seems pointless.


I know what you are saying and I know what madnessinmysoul is saying.

I do not need madnessinmysoul to speak for myself. As far as I know - - he does not believe in what I believe.

Madnessinmysoul and I have one thing in common - - Atheism - - which is non-believe or non-proof in a deity. Its quite simple

Having knowledge that some people believe in something - - - is irrelevant.

I don't think you are making any sense at all.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:20 PM
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So THIS is what ATS has become???

I see this EXACT SAME THREAD in 4chan every damn day.

It speaks volumes about this site, actually.

I wonder how long ATS has been getting trolled by /b/...



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Doublemint
if you would look and understand what manessinmysoul is saying here what I'm saying would make more since.

How can some one not claim that there isn't a diety but still not believe. its a double negative meaning that there is a diety they just dont believe in it, but why would you assume that there is a diety if you are not going to believe in it to me that just seems pointless.


I know what you are saying and I know what madnessinmysoul is saying.

I do not need madnessinmysoul to speak for myself. As far as I know - - he does not believe in what I believe.

Madnessinmysoul and I have one thing in common - - Atheism - - which is non-believe or non-proof in a deity. Its quite simple

Having knowledge that some people believe in something - - - is irrelevant.

I don't think you are making any sense at all.


well considering I did not originally start talking to you you started to talk to me about what I said. I have to use what I'm talking about to explain it to you so therefore it is irrelevant to me weather you can speak for yourself or not what you do and do not have in common with madnessinmysoul also has nothing to do with me explaining it.

If you know what me and madnessinmysoul are both saying then why do you keep asking me to explain.

Having knowledge is relevant because if you did not have the knowledge of god you have nothing to believe or not believe in.

they problem I see is the word believe is being throw around to freely.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Doublemint
well considering I did not originally start talking to you you started to talk to me about what I said. I have to use what I'm talking about to explain it to you so therefore it is irrelevant to me weather you can speak for yourself or not what you do and do not have in common with madnessinmysoul also has nothing to do with me explaining it.


Talking to you? I said - - you don't make any sense.

It has nothing to do with what anyone else says.

How many times can you "Explain" - - and still make no sense?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by Furbs
 


We come here to discuss matters, to share argument and points of view. Matters that we consider of grave importance. 4chan is for trolls and people who don't care for argument (most of them).

It's not just about discussing and arguing over an unanswerable question, it's about letting the quiet observers (and participators) who arn't sure make up their own minds about what they want to believe.

Especially, in times where parents still indoctrinate the suggestable minds of their children, even if it is with the best intentions.

Try attempting an open-discussion in public before the internet. We can thank the mind of man that we are able to share viewpoints and potentially change the zeitgeist of many people with such ease, and without much cost. It's important to some, to some who havn't had a choice of opinion, who've had a 1 sided argument peddled to them all their lives.

Thanks for your input.

Sorry about the lengthy reply. Your post irritated me.

Peace.
edit on 10/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

edit on 10/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
So you don't know if you don't know? I'm sorry, but atheists don't claim that there isn't a deity, they merely don't believe. This has been gone over many times. Atheists simply don't believe, though some do go the further step of making the positive claim in no deities.


But atheist do't claim that there isn't a deity, this is what you said if you had said but atheist claim that there isn't a deity that would read atheists claim that there are no deities. You said but atheist don't claim that there isn't a deity, this reads as, atheist do not say that there is not a diety, and then to go, they merely don't believe. so what you said is atheist do not believe in dieties but they do claim that deities exist. Making your whole point that agnostics are atheists is wrong, because what you are saying is atheists are agnostics. Now you proballly don't see the differnce but it is there and quit a big differnce. Becuase atheists BELIEVE there is no god when agnostics ASSUME all posibilties are possible and untill one of these possiblties are proven right you can not dissmiss the other possibilties. You can prove that some possibilties are wrong and they will be eliminated from the group of possiblties.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
It has nothing to do with what anyone else says.


Then why did you bring up other people?
edit on 10-5-2011 by Doublemint because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by Doublemint
 


No, knowledge of the subject is only relevant to belief, not to disbelief. You passively disbelieve in all things which you are unaware of. Babies? They're atheists. They don't know about the concept of any deity, therefore they are unable to believe in it. The opposite of believing something is not believing. The opposite of believing in any deity is atheism.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Doublemint

Originally posted by Annee
It has nothing to do with what anyone else says.


Then why did you bring up other people?


Other people?

What other people?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


apply it to something other than religion
edit on 10-5-2011 by Doublemint because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by Doublemint
 


I'm having trouble getting your posts...I think you might want to proof them before posting them straight away. Anyway, I'm just going to address one point:

Atheists don't believe in any deity.

Some atheists choose to additionally believe that there are no deities, but even those acknowledge that they are taking an additional step beyond simple 'don't believe in any deity' atheism.

You're merely claiming that atheists believe that no deities exist. That's a separate claim that I've yet to find many atheists making. We will claim that possibly a certain deity doesn't exist if the claim is testable (like the deity that is sitting on my bed...which it definitely isn't so it doesn't exist), but we also acknowledge that there is the possibility (however small) that there is an omnipotent, omniscient being trying as hard as possible to cover up its existence. Therefore absolute certainty on all deity claims is impossible.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


that made no since can you redifine what an atheist is?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


unable to follow quotes?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Doublemint
 


No, knowledge of the subject is only relevant to belief, not to disbelief.


so atheism is inter changeable with ignorance?



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Doublemint
reply to post by Annee
 


unable to follow quotes?


What other people? As I said - - I spoke for myself.

I addressed you directly. If any other person was brought up - - you brought them up.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by Doublemint
 


Some children are born into tribes that simply live life, they don't talk about God. There is no word for deity, they don't even know what Atheist is, yet, they are still Atheist - They don't believe because they havn't been told about God.

Where God is more prevelant, Atheism is generally is a response to the positive claim that God does exist (Deism) or that God exists with a definition (Theism)

Admitting our agnosticism regarding the source of reality or consciousness, no one can make any claims, the only person that had to lose is the person making a positive claim.

Any RATIONAL Agnostic, would disbelieve such unreasonable claims.
edit on 10/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


eh maybe I don't think one can not believe without knowldege



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