Nato strike 'kills Saif al-Arab Gaddafi', Libya says

reply to post by wonderworld


Doing a bit of googling to confirm that 50,000 dollar for newleywed claim, and I came across this interesting piece on Cynthia McKinny's facebook about Libya.

www.facebook.com...

It's definitely worth the read, and contains some great links/references/sources.

in brief part:

Ellen Brown, author of the must-read "Web of Debt," wrote a masterful piece entitled, "All About Oil, or All About Banking?" (www.globalresearch.ca...) Here, Ellen breaks down the importance of Libya's oil revenues and sovereign fund and the important tidbit of information that forms the core of her thesis: Colonel Qaddafi's monetary policies constitute an important factor in him being attacked and the subsequent establishment by the NATO allies of an alternative Libyan central bank.

After reminding the readers that under The Green Book form of governance, Libya has achieved what we in the United States do not enjoy: universal health care paid for by the state; universal education subsidized through the Ph.D. level by the state; oil revenue sharing; subsidized housing; subsidized automobile purchases; $50,000 marriage subsidy for newlyweds; and more. The more just happens to be what Libya has in common with six other countries that General Wesley Clarke announced were on a list for war that he saw from the Pentagon: neither Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, nor Libya belong to the Bank of International Settlements, the Central Bankers' bank.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by moonpie86
The one person who is claiming to know they are right is stumason.

I am the only one offering facts and evidence, it would seem.... All we're hearing from you is hyperbole and conjecture. I was made to go and dig up video's (which as predicted have been ignored and glossed over by you lot) to back up my side of the story. You guys have offered nothing.

Originally posted by moonpie86
Your sarcastic comment about you expecting to now be called a disinfo agent is ridiculous.

Not at all, some here have form.

Originally posted by moonpie86
Why don't you look back to where the attacking started? I was attacked for thinking it sick that people would celebrate the death of innocent children. Do you agree with Stumason? Are you saying that it is not sick that his grandchildren were murdered and his son, when it is Gaddafi they are after?

Shall we look at this post you claim I attacked you in? Nice attempt at spin, but we can still go back and read what was said, you know. Read the blow and kindly point out where did I "attack" you? And also, you misrepresent your claims about kids being killed as "sick", because that comment was about the gunfire. You are trying to paint me as someone who is happy kids got killed and I attacked you personally, neither of which is the case and seemed to have forgotten that everything is written down....

This is our first exchange of posts in this thread.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by moonpie86
Im not sure if this link has been posted already. For those who are asking if this really happened. Look at some more facts. Earlier that day Gaddafi said he was ready for negotiations if NATO would stop the planes.

TRUCE OFFER

*sighs*

After the airstrike, apparently gunshots of celebration were let off. SICK!

Ok, firstly, this is like the 10th offer of a truce from him while continuing with his offensives after the suppsoed "ceasefire". Also, while this offer was being put on the table, Government ministers were quoted as saying the rebels in Misrata had 48hrs to lay down their arms or face "full fire" from the Libyan troops.

Secondly, the gunfire was heard in Tripoli by his supporters who have since gathered outside his compound to "protest". Not sure what you're hinting at with the "sick" comment.

edit on 30/4/11 by stumason because: (no reason given)

The context to which the word attack has been used in my post, was in the context of the previous poster. Attack as in disputing anothers opinion because it is simply not yours and not allowing them to have it.

"Not sure what your hinting at with the sick comment." There was no hint. It was a simple statement. How can those who are not Libyans, celebrate the death of innocents. Pretty simple stuff really. Even clearer for you, " Celebration gunfire let off by those who are not Libyan after airstrike which killed grandchildren of Gaddafi - SICK!

As for your comment, " some here have form", Do you mean those that agree with you?

Look at your posts man, hyperbole and conjecture? No, what you were reading from me was compassion and disbelief. Its not my fault the media is a joke

Originally posted by forall2see
This is scary folks. I feel as if this move from "NATO" has made my family a direct target of retaliatory attacks. I don't like it one bit. We, here in the US should REALLY be thinking of what's to come for the sake of the ones we love and beyond.

Of course Libya has the ability to launch a strike against us.... they have science too. To deny this is ignorant.... we should all be fending for ourselves now that TPTB have made the situation as such.

It's bad news, I know. But really....... no bueno!

Yes, I expect retaliation too, however the US may not have been the one to drop the bomb. The US has nothing to fear over any Libyan bomb aimed here. We’d knock it in to oblivion in seconds. I think I’ll avoid New York and Chicago for a while but we cant fear them and quit living our lives.. I always heard the tip is to watch for a large number of other culture people leaving a large city it’s time to get out.

Originally posted by stumason

Not really oppresive? C'mon!

And I suppose the Chinese just give dissidents a gentle ticking off and ask them to not do it again too?

Next we'll be hearing that Kim Jon Il hands out fluffy bunnies to every Korean child and Mugabe is just misunderstood....

What do two unrelated countries have to do with that statement made that the Libyan people werent really oppressed?

The UN numbers, (which are UN numbers, not Libyan numbers) DO paint a flattering picture of the situation for the Libyan people.

China and Korea have nothing to do with that argument AT ALL, except for you trying to make Libya guilty by your false association.

Dont forget, China is up Americas skirt, (or actually the other way round) and so calling China a bunch of oppressive bastards does nothing to make Americas involvement in Libya look better. It just begs the question "then why are we doing business with them?" We are sure quick to slap embargos on all sorts of other people for their treatment of their people.

I'd say you have more to fear from the false flag that might be blamed on Libya
then anything Libya might do

and the precident for regime change based on nebulous charges

now if its OK in Libya
its OK
at your house too


like I said it was OK for Kennedy
so its OK for Gadaffi

You live by the sword and die by the sword. This is what you get for being a racist, dictator who supports terrorism. Karma in action.

Originally posted by stumason
I was made to go and dig up video's (which as predicted have been ignored and glossed over by you lot) to back up my side of the story. You guys have offered nothing.

Stu, you cannot flat lie. I watched every single video, and my comments reflect that. I even went on my own and presented evidence about the executions.

People not agreeing with you on what is happening in those videos is NOT people ignoring and glossing over them. Its people not seeing what you apparently see. A handful of rebels shooting into the air with NO enemy in sight over and over again is not evidence of Gaddafis atrocities.

This is the sort of thing that Saddam Hussein should have been doing before the Iraq War broke out. The statement to the press being made here is something that should give the NATO countries' governments and the people that elect those governments pause.



What has been going on in the middle east since 9/11 is a complete and utter absolute disgrace to NATO and all the powers that defeated Nazi Germany in WW2. To see those nations, led by a country that has been squandering its wealth on armaments since the fall of the Soviet Union, embarked on a war of imperial agression in the middle east is disgusting.

I know Sadam was no angel, but he was one of the most progressive leaders in terms of social policy, secularism and industrial development in the region, as well as being a bulwark against Iran and a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism. Not only all of that but he was the United States' second most important ally in the region, an ally that the Americans capriciously chose to stab in the back when he had the temerity to want to flee from the US dollar as payment for oil exports.

Imagine the gall of him. Thinking that the Americans were running their economy into the ditch.

Now we have Libya. What is going on in Libya is a civil war. Does anyone remember the American Civil war? Remember how England backed the south, to further its own economic interests?

People in the NATO countries are starting to wake up to the fact that we are all being governed by a senile oligarchy whose time is coming to an end. These people can't control themselves, can't govern their own greed, can't deal honestly with their citizens or their allies. They think that regime change is the same as firing the head of the accounting department in one of their own companies and replacing him with someone more "creative".

Wake up people. We are governed by the Romanoffs. We have the democratic tools. We have to start using them to make our politicians do what we the people want them to do. Stop these dopey wars, deal honestly with international business partners and pay more attention to increasing the standard of living at home.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


And how do you feel about that? Do you feel its credible at all?

reply to post by Itop1


S&F

i'd promised myself i'd stop doing this but...:



This Libya business just gets more and more disgusting.
i think it should be obvious by now that whatever his faults qadaffi is an enemy of the NWO.
they've been picking off his family for quite awhile, today TCOTBIP targeted and murdered another of his sons and 3 of his grandchildren, mean while the us envoy to the un is doing a colin powell with some BS claiming qadaffi is handing out viagra to the troops so they can go on a nationwide rape spree

if i were 20 yrs younger, i'd be paying mr qadaffi a a very informative visit

instead i'll just post the following and hope somebody will pass it on:

there are catalysts that will convert petroleum into fertilizer just pump enough into the oil deposits via the oil wells
and turn it all into fertilizer.
that and the Great Man-Made River Project are all you need to win the war and accomplish your dream of a united africa as north africa's deserts bloom.


Virtually unknown in the West: Libya's water resources. The real reason for toppling Quadaffi?

.In the 1960s during oil exploration deep in the southern Libyan desert, vast reservoirs of high quality water were discovered in the form of aquifers. ... ...In Libya there are four major underground basins, these being the Kufra basin, the Sirt basin, the Morzuk basin and the Hamada basin, the first three of which contain combined reserves of 35,000 cubic kilometres of water. These vast reserves offer almost unlimited amounts of water for the Libyan people.

Under the giant scheme, water is pumped from aquifers under the Sahara in the southern part of the country, where underground water resources extend into Egypt and Sudan. Then the water is transported by reinforced concrete pipeline to northern destinations. Construction on the first phase started in 1984, and cost about $5 billion. The completed project may total $25 billion. South Korean construction experts built the huge pipes in Libya by some of the most modern techniques. The engineering feat involves collecting water from 270 wells in east central Libya, and transporting it through about 2,000 kilometers of pipeline to Benghazi and Sirte. The new ``river'' brings 2 million cubic meters of water a day. At completion, the system will involve 4,000 kilometers of pipepines, and two aqueducts of some 1,000 kilometers.

Joining in celebrating the inauguration of the artificial river were dozens of Arab and African heads of state and hundreds of other foreign diplomats and delegations. Among them were Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, King Hassan of Morocco, the head of Sudan, Gen. Omar El Beshir, and Djibouti's President Hassan Julied. Col. Muammar Qaddafi told the celebrants:

``After this achievement, American threats against Libya will double.... The United States will make excuses, [but] the real reason is to stop this achievement, to keep the people of Libya oppressed.'' Qaddafi presented the project to the cheering crowd as a gift to the Third World.

Mubarak spoke at the ceremony and stressed the regional importance of the project. Qaddafi has called on Egyptian farmers to come and work in Libya, where there are only 4 million inhabitants. Egypt's population of 55 million is crowded in narrow bands along the Nile River and delta region. Over the last 20 years, the water improvement projects envisioned for Egypt, which could provide more water and more hectares of agricultural and residential land, have been repeatedly sabotaged by the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, and the Anglo-American financial interests behind them.

PROPAGANDA is a weapon of war and not just political control, people, and many seem to be the losers on these Libya threads.

not to mention the usual bots,dupes and disinfo-spreaders both conscious and unconscious,

the last thing the West wants is a United Africa, no more cheap or nearly free resources and no more toxic waste dump[Somalia] and no more bio-warfare testing on the continent of the greatest human genetic variability if that should happen. TCOTBIP having planning to commit genocide in Africa for a very long time.

cause it's not about the oil its about keeping africa in the stone age: a continental somalia they can rape for resources without paying and a free toxic waste dump as well.

kissingers african genocide policy:
Kissinger plan to transform North Africa and Middle East into Turkmenistan forum.prisonplanet.com...
depopulation_linked_merck_pharma_announces_africa_plan www.infowars.com...
article
www.schillerinstitute.org...
kissingers memo[1974]:
wlym.com...

2 excellent threads that cut trough the BS by ATS member Boondock-Saint:

Obama provides air cover for terrorists who killed Americans in Iraq, www.abovetopsecret.com...
Gadhaffi funded Sarkozy's French Presidential Campaign?? www.abovetopsecret.com...

in response to those claiming qadaffi is hated by his people:

How was Libya doing under the rule of Gadaffi? How bad did the people have it? Were they oppressed as we now commonly accept as fact? Let us look at the facts for a moment.

Before the chaos erupted, Libya had a lower incarceration rate than the Czech republic. It ranked 61st. Libya had the lowest infant mortality rate of all of Africa. Libya had the highest life expectancy of all of Africa. Less than 5% of the population was undernourished. In response to the rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished ALL taxes on food.People in Libya were rich. Libya had the highest gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita of all of Africa. The government took care to ensure that everyone in the country shared in the wealth. Libya had the highest Human Development Index of any country on the continent. The wealth was distributed equally. In Libya, a lower percentage of people lived below the poverty line than in the Netherlands.

How does Libya get so rich? The answer is oil. The country has a lot of oil, and does not allow foreign corporations to steal the resources while the population starves, unlike countries like Nigeria, a country that is basically run by Shell.

Like any country, Libya suffers from a government with corrupt bureaucrats that try to gain a bigger portion of the pie at the cost of everyone else. In response to this, Kadaffi called for the oil revenue to be distributed directly to the people, because in his opinion, the government was failing the people. However, unlike the article claims, Kadaffi is not the president of Libya. In fact he holds no official position in the government. This is the big mistake that people make. They claim that Kadaffi rules over Libya when in fact he doesn't, his position is more or less ceremonial. He should be compared to a founding father.

The true leader of Libya is an indirectly elected prime-minister. The current prime-minister is
Baghdadi Mahmudi. Calling Khadaffi the leader of Libya is comparable to calling Akihito the leader of Japan. Contrary to what your media is sketching, opinions in Libya vary. Some people support Gadaffi but want Mahmudi out. Others want both out. Many just want to live their life in peace. However, effort is taken to sketch the appearance of a popular revolt against the supposed leader of Libya, Gadaffi, when in fact he is just the architect of Libya's current political system, a mixture of pan-Arabism, socialism, and Islamic government.

Are the protesters in Libya comparable to the protesters in Egypt and Tunisia? Not at all. The governments reaction is more violent, and obviously excessive violence is being used. However let us look for a moment at the actions of the protesters. The building of the the general people's congress, the parliament of Libya, was put on fire by angry protestors. This is comparable to protesters putting the United States Capitol on fire. Do you think that for even a moment the US government would sit idly by as protesters put the US capitol on fire?


Great Britain funded an Al Qaeda cell in Libya, in an attempt to assassinate Gadaffi. The main opposition group in Libya now is the National Front for the Salvation of Libya. This opposition group is being funded by Saudi Arabia, the CIA, and French Intelligence. This group unified itself with other opposition groups, to become the National Conference for the Libyan Opposition. It was this organization that called for the "Day of Rage" that plunged Libya into chaos on February 17 of this year.

It did this in Benghazi, a conservative city that has always been opposed to Gadaffi's rule. It should be noted that the National Front for the Salvation of Libya is well armed. In 1996 the group tried to unleash a revolution in the eastern part of Libya before. It used the Libyan National Army, the armed division of the NFSL to begin this failed uprising.

Why is the United States so opposed to Gadaffi? He is the main threat to US hegemony in Africa, because he attempts to unite the continent against the United States. This concept is called the United States of Africa. In fact, Gadaffi holds all sorts of ideas that are contrary to US interests. The man blames the United States government for the creation of HIV. He claims that Israel is behind the assasination of Martin Luther King and president John. F. Kennedy. He says that the 9/11 hijackers were trained in the US. He also urged Libyans to donate blood to Americans after 9/11. Khadaffi is also the last of a generation of moderate socialist pan-Arab revolutionaries that is still in power, after Nasser and Hussein have been eliminated, and Syria has aligned itself with Iran.The United States and Israel however have no interest in a strong Arab world. In fact it seems that elementary to the plan is bringing Libya to its knees through chaos and anarchy. In late 2010, the United Kingdom was still propping up the Libyan government through lucrative arms sales. Nothing is a better guarantee to destroy Libya than a bloody civil war. The tribal system that is still strong in Libya is useful to exploit to generate such a war since Libya has historically been divided into various tribal groups.

This is also why the Libyan government responds by importing mercenaries. Tribal allegiances go before allegiance to the government, especially in Benghazi, and thus the central government has no control over the eastern part of the country anymore. The alternative to mercenaries is a conflict between the various ethnic groups. Gadaffi has tried for 41 years to make the country more homogeneous, but opposition groups funded by outside forced will take little more than a few days to put the country back into the 19th century, before the region was conquered and unified by Europeans. The violence is indeed excessive, but everyone seems to forget that the situation is not the same as in Tunis and Egypt. Tribal ties play a far greater role, and thus the conflict will unfortunately be bloodier.

Originally posted by Ultraman2011
You live by the sword and die by the sword. This is what you get for being a racist, dictator who supports terrorism. Karma in action.

What? Did something just happen to Bush?

Heres a question for those who in the know..

I thought there was a United Nations Mandate, United Nations Resolution 1973, thats supposed to protect civillians from airstrikes. How was this brutal airstrike approved? Please, no answers here just about how the airstrikes by Nato were to protect civillians. Guns are guns and bombs are bombs, are regardless of whose side, civillians are dying. Isn't that why we have rules of warfar? How exactly does one airstrike that kills civillians differ from another, except for what side you are on?

From my understanding the Rebels were demanding that Nato do something extreme, Gadaffi offered another TRUCE and then BAM. The least threatening member of the Gadaffi family killed along with his children.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

I love the VIAGRA LIE
that is honest to god hilarious and sinks the kill Gadaffi types the best

bush would do the Viagra...
not hand it out

obama would make the troops pay for it themselves

Originally posted by Konah

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by Konah

 

CNN is also reporting right now that some of his grandchildren were murdered as well, and that both Gaddafi and his wife were there during the strikes.

Well then, should have launched even bigger strikes... maybe a MOAB would have done the trick...

Now Gaddafi is probably gonna retaliate with a small terrorist attack somewhere in Europe.

And a few hours ago :

# 05:03
Gadhafi calls for negotiations with NATO powers (Reuters)

He got his answer.

edit on 30-4-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

I'm glad you are buying all the media hype about this man and think it's okay to murder his grandchildren. You should go educate yourself on what he does and has done for his people, who the rebels are and what they've done, and how the vast majority of the Libyan people support their leader.

EXACTLY! It's disgusting how many people on this board have no idea what the hell is going on in libya and think ghaddafi is this evil dictator.the man does more for his country than any western country does..Anyone who supports this deserves to be put in that building during the missle strike and see if you support it then! For god's sake 3 grandchildren under age 12 were killed..what the F*** did they do?!?!

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Originally posted by Ultraman2011
You live by the sword and die by the sword. This is what you get for being a racist, dictator who supports terrorism. Karma in action.

What? Did something just happen to Bush?

reply to post by Vitchilo


They hate his guts for giving them free education and paying for them to study over seas, free health care, no taxes on food, subsidized housing, interest free housing loans, hes turning the desert into a fertile farmland and giving farmers land..WHO in their right mind would hate that...OH, maybe the terrorists he has been fighting in libya for for over two decabes..I admire your work on other threads vitchillo but I'm 100% against your views on this one

By the way if a libyan needs surgery overseas...the libyan government pays for it!

reply to post by Danbones


Yeah. Sometimes during this media campaign I have asked myself, "Is part of this just testing to see what the lowest quality of rubbish they can pass as truth is?"

Because to me, a lot of their propaganda hasnt even seemed decently polished. In the case of the execution video, even Al Jazeea English distanced themselves from it with disclaimers. Clearly, they suspect at some point that will be debunked, and they dont want to totally lose their credibility over it.

Originally posted by Ultraman2011
This is what you get for being a racist, dictator who supports terrorism. Karma in action.

and you could say that same thing about America
as it has the biggest terrorist entity on the planet.
It's called the CIA.

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds
reply to post by wonderworld

 

Doing a bit of googling to confirm that 50,000 dollar for newleywed claim, and I came across this interesting piece on Cynthia McKinny's facebook about Libya.

www.facebook.com...

It's definitely worth the read, and contains some great links/references/sources.

in brief part:

Ellen Brown, author of the must-read "Web of Debt," wrote a masterful piece entitled, "All About Oil, or All About Banking?" (www.globalresearch.ca...) Here, Ellen breaks down the importance of Libya's oil revenues and sovereign fund and the important tidbit of information that forms the core of her thesis: Colonel Qaddafi's monetary policies constitute an important factor in him being attacked and the subsequent establishment by the NATO allies of an alternative Libyan central bank.

After reminding the readers that under The Green Book form of governance, Libya has achieved what we in the United States do not enjoy: universal health care paid for by the state; universal education subsidized through the Ph.D. level by the state; oil revenue sharing; subsidized housing; subsidized automobile purchases; $50,000 marriage subsidy for newlyweds; and more. The more just happens to be what Libya has in common with six other countries that General Wesley Clarke announced were on a list for war that he saw from the Pentagon: neither Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, nor Libya belong to the Bank of International Settlements, the Central Bankers' bank.

I'm not gullible but for some reason this sounds reasonable for Gaddafi to share the oil proceeds with the people, not stick their wealth in a central bank, etc. This article is facinating indeed! If this is true it's horrifying what has occured there! I'll do a bit more searching on this.

I was mad about how the war in Iraq started, after reading that info I’m having a real bad feeling about this one, almost worse. Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi are not one in the same. I don’t blame Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, and Libya for not sticking their money in the Central Bank. The thought of this makes my blood boil. Although I despise Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the people of Iran seem peaceful. I’m standing back re-evaluating this.

I think most of us have humanity towards others regardless of color or race. The sheep are easily influenced by Media. We see what they want us to see and not the beauty in these countries. Somewhere here on ATS is a thread showing all the beauty of Arab Confederacies. It was actually breath taking. It was a different side of the coin.

Thanks for finding that!!!!

Here is NATO's justification for the attack.

NATO's commander of Libya operations, Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, said the target was part of a strategy to damage Gaddafi's ability to plan and conduct attacks on civilians.

"All NATO's targets are military in nature and have been clearly linked to the Gaddafi regime's systematic attacks on the Libyan population ... We do not target individuals," he said in a statement.

in.reuters.com...
Where is the evidence that this target was militaristic of nature? I'll be the first to shut down these new claims as BS.