I've been having discussions (and arguements) with a friend of mine who is religious (i'm not)

From our discussions, he's basically told me, all those who don't believe in a god, or who don't accept Jesus as their saviour, will basically goto "hell"

According to him, if someone grows up not believing, they won't get a chance to see god and will basically get sent straight there.

Now, here's my problem with the whole thing..

We're born as Sinners, because of what "adam" and "eve" supposedly did in the garden of eden.
So with that said, we're condemned as soon as we're conceived / born. and as a result, we're doomed unless we accept jesus as our saviour

Now, how can some allmighty, loving god condemn his creations like that?
What I said to my friend was basically this.

I didn't ask for this life, I never wanted it in the first place and it's god's fault for creating a "flawed" race such as ours in the first place, if he wanted a perfect race with no sin, he should've done a better job in his creation and god himself, must be imperfect if he can't create something perfect each and everytime.

We've argued about this alot, as i've told him I don't believe in god because there is no proof, he says there is, in the form of the bible
But as i've said countless times, anyone can write a book and claim it to be written by some god.

Phew
Any thoughts? heh

well it all is based on which god you are referring to. The god in the bible imo seems to be close-minded, synical, mean and quite unforgiving of the qualities he endowed his creations (made in his image btw) with.

gods of other religion are not so harsh, ie, hinduism, the gods of that religion say that all paths leads to the same destination and doesn't require you to convert and denounce others just to get favor in god's presence.

Sounds like you are starting to get a handle on it anyway...

This topic has been discussed so many times here, that it's ridiculous, but the short and easy answer is that (imho) your friend is delusioned. He is wrong... There is no god, devil, heaven, or hell. When you die, that's it, you die. So be happy and grateful for this gift of life that you have been given and enjoy it to it's fullest, because when the light switch is turned off, existence is over, and there will be no second chances in ANY afterlife...
(imho)

Originally posted by worldwatcher
well it all is based on which god you are referring to. The god in the bible imo seems to be close-minded, synical, mean and quite unforgiving of the qualities he endowed his creations (made in his image btw) with..

That's basically what I said, especially the "in his image" bit to
If we were created "in his image" then we would be perfect, but because we're apparently not, he can't be either....

God created Adam and Eve without sin, with free will(the ability of choice)and pronounced it good. Then He placed them in a perfect environment. Without our free will we would not be capable of love. They chose to disobey God and sin entered creation, not just people but all of creation.

There are some diseases that you are born with but you don't have the consequences of them right away. But when they show up, you seek treatment hoping for a cure. Yes everyone after Adam and Eve have been infected with sin we didn't have a choice. It doesn't show up in a newborn baby but it's still there. Wait a couple of years and that child doesn't have to be taught to lie, he instinctively knows how to do it, it's in him from the sin infection. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple, come to Him and He will cure you of the disease of sin. You can accept the cure or refuse it, it's your choice.

yea, but why would God curse his OWN creation with diseases and damn them to hell? How could somehtin all good make something evil?

For all the Christians out there, yes the Christians will be in Heaven. Also the Jews will be in Heaven, once they accept Jesus for who He is. The same goes for the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and the Muslims, and…

I do not like to spout off Bible verses, because if someone doesn’t believe in Jesus then why would a Scripture from the Bible mean anything to them? Also, even Satan can quote the Scriptures when it so fits his purpose.

Anyways, my belief is that there will be more people in the Kingdom of God than a lot of people think. First, please take into consideration that I believe in the three kingdoms of Heaven. So I should briefly explain that.

I am NOT saying “THIS IS THE WAY IT IS”; rather I am saying that this is the way that I truly feel that it is. So make your own judgments…

There is a Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, Telestial Kingdom, and Outer Darkness (BAD). Now I will tell about these different kingdoms, and why more than just Christians will be in Heaven. I will start from the bottom and work my way up...

Outer Darkness is for those that received the Holy Ghost and then denied the Lord, after knowing of His Glory. This is a very bad place to be. This is where Satan reigns, because it contains the people that turned to Satan after knowing the Gospel of the Lord. This does not mean those that never accepted or those that never heard of the Lord’s Plan for Salvation. This is a place for those that had accepted the Lord as their Savior and then turned their backs to Him. I pray that no one that I have ever come into contact with will end up here.

The Telestial Kingdom would consist of those who did not receive the gospel in their time upon the earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, and then be resurrected. These people are the liars, adulterers, whoremongers, and basically the not so nice (but not truly EVIL) people. Very many people will be here, just look at our present day society. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost, but NOT by the Father or the Son. Even this degree of the Kingdom is glorious, but not where I want to be, as we should strive for more...

The Terrestrial Kingdom is for those who rejected the gospel on earth, but then received it in the spirit world (those who will realize that they were wrong after death). These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also the people that received the gospel as well as a testimony of Jesus but didn't put it to use. These people will be visited by Jesus Christ, but not by our Heavenly Father. They will not be a part of eternal families and will live separately and singly forever. Basically, this goes to show that a Christian going through the motions is no better off than an honorable non-believer that accepts the testimony in the hereafter.

The Celestial Kingdom is for those that have overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessing upon them. All of these people will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever.

The Celestial Kingdom is the one that I want to be in, but right now I am not living the life that I need to in order to get there. Sadly, what I have been doing so far with my life is climbing from the bottom of the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is still a glorious part of Heaven, but I want to be in the Celestial Kingdom. I have gone from being borderline Outer Darkness to clinging onto the Terrestrial Kingdom. I am not the example that anyone should watch, rather please learn from the mistakes that I have made. Thankfully, our Father in Heaven is loving enough to give us a second chance. I pray that you all will take him up on his offer the second time around if you haven’t already. Also, I do not think that any of you are so wicked as to be thrown into Outer Darkness, so:

GOD BE WITH YOU TILL WE MEET AGAIN...

As part of God's plan, you live on this earth and are subject to natural and physical laws. You are also subject to the consequences of sin and the results of choices made by you and by others.

So why do we suffer? Because there are people in this world that are sick enough to drink alcohol and then get behind the wheel of a car. Because there are people in this world that willing fly airplanes into buildings to kill others, and because there are people in this world that care more about themselves that their neighbor. We all have free agency, and that my friends is why there is suffering in the world. We choose it to be this way because of the way that we (as a whole) live our lives.

Originally posted by petey_pongo23
There is a Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, Telestial Kingdom, and Outer Darkness (BAD). Now I will tell about these different kingdoms, and why more than just Christians will be in Heaven. I will start from the bottom and work my way up...

Aah, the old Mormon - multi-level marketing plan - 10% now, 10% a month will reserve your place into one of the kingdoms of heaven.

While I don't believe in god and have no use for god - I would like to think if there was a god that his compassion would not be dependent on whether you chose the right religion or subscribed to a particular philosophy. But ask any religion and they'll be the first to tell you, they are the only ones that have it right.

god, IMHO, is an invention of man to control the masses, tell them what to think and about who.

Adam and Eve's decision was more involved than the physical part of eating the apple. Under that part they had to decide if they should remember to do what God said or listen to this new voice that was pointing them in another direction. Sin entered through satan and Adam and Eve's disobedience.

In a sense we're condemned to hell and in a sense we're not. The wages of sin is seperation from God. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. God knew man was going to fall into sin. But before God made the first atom of creation, Christ willingly offered to die for our sins.

If I were a convicted felon in the electric chair and 2 minutes before I was to be electricuted the governer calls and says I've pardoned him. They tell me and I say, "No thanks" I'll fry, that doesn't make sense.

Or someone wraps up $5,000.00 and puts it on the table and says here's your gift. But you never open it so you can never use it. That doesn't make sense.

We don't have to be condemned to hell. We each have a pardon with our name on it. We each have a gift ready to be opened. We have to use the same free will that's caused us to be seperated from God and use it to accept the gift of pardon that is offered to us In Jesus.

Yes, mankind does suffer but when a person comes to Christ that same suffering is used to conform us into the image of Christ. Not that we will ever be"God", but we will be like Him.

I also think that people think that mankind suffers and God gets off easy.

Think about this. If you saw "The Passion of the Christ" movie you have a taste of something. The only thing is it doesn't tell the whole story. Besides being actors they left out parts. The real Jesus was extremely dehydrated and exhausted. He was blindfolded and beaten with sticks, so He couldn't prepare for the blows. In the movie one of the soldier actors missed(and they were trying to be careful) with the whips that had metal or bone on them and the Jesus actor actually had them dig into Him. So that proves you can't aim those things. Now think about the real soldiers. They really didn't care if they were accurate. Imagine when their floggings missed and the bones or metal dug into the face or eyes or head of the real Jesus. Those sharp objects actually dug in and ripped off chunks of flesh to expose bones and organs. Severe swelling occurred with the real Jesus.

The Bible tells us that when they were finished with Jesus He no longer looked like a human. It didn't look like a man hanging on the cross.

Now comes the emotional and mental part. You put yourself down on a piece of wood from a tree that you made, and let someone deliberately nail your body to it. He was naked and people were humiliating Him. They were mocking Him, but He held his head when He could have called 12 legions of angels and come down off the cross.

Next every sin of every one who has ever or will ever live was placed into His soul and body and He felt them as if He had done them. Someone who never did a sin had gazillions of sins dumped on Him in a moment of time. Could you imagine feeling the sin of Hitler, plus mine and everyone's.

Now I can't explain this any better right now so don't ask me, but Jesus is God. At the moment He cried out"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me", He was seperated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He is God but He was seperated from God.

No person will ever experience all that Christ went through, so God did not get away with anything or get off easy.

Just noticed your mood was depressed, it doesn't have to be!

[Edited on 29-7-2004 by dbrandt]

[Edited on 29-7-2004 by dbrandt]

[Edited on 29-7-2004 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by petey_pongo23

The Terrestrial Kingdom is for those who rejected the gospel on earth, but then received it in the spirit world (those who will realize that they were wrong after death). ...

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

Sorry to be so blunt but what you are saying is not Biblical.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO



I just thought I would point out, that when Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me," he was not doubting.
.

I agree

Originally posted by dbrandt

I agree

I pointed that out because the words can lead to confusion, and make a person wonder "Why would Jesus say that?" When I was younger, no one could answer that question for me. When I discovered "God is", I had to have an answer to that question.

.

I consider myself...christian I guess. I believe in Jesus as my savior...all that. But I have been debating alot with myself. Now I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to get an answer. Christians that can help me with this...here it goes.

Two questions:

a.) Does God love us

b.) Is he all powerful? All powerful meaning he can do ANYTHING!!!

So...if hell is there, then it means that God has controll of it being there, correct? If he's all powerful then he could easily get rid of it. Now, I know that most people say, "It's their choice not to follow God! They choose to go to hell". But it's not their choice if they don't know that God exists!!! Most people can't really help if they believe something or not! If they've simply just heard of christianity every now and then...but didn't really believe it, it seems wrong that they would go to hell! I know it's, "Free will". That sounds all good until you realize that if you make the wrong, "Choice" you are tortured for all eternity.. I mean, if he loves us sooo much, he wouldn't be able to bare to know that so many people are down there suffering and he could easily save them.

It's not like they said, "I want to go to hell". I know he wants us to choose him, but shouldn't he be above letting us suffer forever for not knowing that he's up there?. Because, if you don't believe in God is in infact not knowing he's up there..not really choosing not to think he is. And like the other person said, we didn't chose to be thrown into this life. He put us here...we'd be better off never to have existed rather than suffering in Hell! If he knows everything that's going to happen, then why did he put us here if he knew we were going to hell?

Please be blunt. Don't use all kinds of metaphors and such to just dance around the subject. Please try to directly answer it.

[Edited on 1-8-2004 by Herman]



[Edited on 1-8-2004 by Herman]

[Edited on 1-8-2004 by Herman]

Herman, You're beginning to underdstand what alot of former christians (or any religious person for that matter) came to understand. People want an all-powerful god, but they also want to put limits on that god. Like giving the god emotions (god loves us, that makes god angry). We even use illogical reasoning to give god a nature. Like an all knowing god and humans with free-will (can you see why the two don't work together?).

You just can't have the cake and eat it too.

There are three possible answers to your question.

1.) God doesn't know what people will do (humans with free will)
2.) God knows, but is not all-loving
3.) There is no personal god.

Keep searching for truth.

Question a. For God so LOVED the world that He gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him should perish but have everlasting life.

The Bible tells us that hell was made for the devil and the angels that followed Him. People DON"T have to go to hell, Christ is the escape.

Ques. b God can do anything except sin. He also will not completely invade our free will. An example of this. God brings about alot of different things in a certain persons life to get their attention and cause them to think about Him, and their need for Him. Also He indirectly brings about things in a persons life to show them evil. Things like Hitler and the holocuast, 19 men flying airplanes into buildings, A huband who murders his pregnant wife etc.... Even with all this plus the personal stuff they haven't accepted Christ. Then let's say God knows that that person will be in an accident on August 21, 2004 because a drunk driver will be on the road. He allows the severe accident to happen and the person winds up in a wheel chair for the rest of their life. This person was brought to the point of death and completely found out about God and Jesus yet still did not accept the way of salvation. God went as far as He could to reach this man. Now we have to be adult about this and think clearly. We as people are not stupid but we sometimes like to blame the other guy. We have a responsibility to not "act" ignorant. The man knew about everything needed for salvation, he had all the info but still rejected it. Who's to blame here. Certainly not God, the man MADE his choice.

If God made someone He did it for a reason, they shouldn't question that. And then say well He knew I was going to hell so God shouldn't have made me. They still chose to reject Him. Suppose you're at work and you're at your desk and you happen to see a ring on your desk(the cleaning person forgot it their overnight). You could take the ring and nobody would know. You have a choice, take it for yourself or find the owner. You take it saying they shouldn't have left it, it's their fault that I took it. No you had a choice and you made it. We are responsible for our actions and decisions.

As far as other's who have never heard about Christ. Don't use that either as an excuse for YOU not to choose. If you know the gospel, YOU have a choice to make. Your responsible for you, not whether your nieghbor chooses Christ or not. But when you do become a christian, God will use you to tell others, but ultimately they have to choose for themselves. God will be fair, no one will be in hell by mistake.

Well, thanks. That clears up alot of it...but not the part about him being all-loving. If he was all loving, then despite how we sinned he'd still not allow us to be tortured in hell, right? I'm sure I'll come to understand this.. Thanks for helping me.