The Evil Banker anti-capitalist nonsense thread

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


Where did I get it? Right off of the socialist parties web site. Take a look.

socialistparty-usa.org...

THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community.

Socialist Society

Freedom & Equality

Democratic socialism is a political and economic system with freedom and equality for all, so that people may develop to their fullest potential in harmony with others. The Socialist Party is committed to full freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion, and to a multi-party system. We are dedicated to the abolition of male supremacy and class society, and to the elimination of all forms of oppression, including those based on race, national origin, age, sexual preferences, and disabling conditions.

Production For Use, Not For Profit

In a socialist system the people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically controlled public agencies, cooperatives, or other collective groups. The primary goal of economic activity is to provide the necessities of life, including food, shelter, health care, education, child care, cultural opportunities, and social services.
These social services include care for the chronically ill, persons with mental disabilities, the infirm and the aging. Planning takes place at the community, regional, and national levels, and is determined democratically with the input of workers, consumers, and the public to be served.

Full Employment

Under welfare capitalism, a reserve pool of people is kept undereducated, under-skilled and unemployed, largely along racial and gender lines, to exert pressure on those who are employed and on organized labor. The employed pay for this knife that capitalism holds to their throats by being taxed to fund welfare programs to maintain the unemployed and their children. In this way the working class is divided against itself; those with jobs and those without are separated by resentment and fear. In socialism, full employment is realized for everyone who wants to work.

Worker & Community Control

Democracy in daily life is the core of our socialism. Public ownership becomes a fraud if decisions are made by distant bureaucrats or authoritarian managers. In socialist society power resides in worker-managed and cooperative enterprises. Community-based cooperatives help provide the flexibility and innovation required in a dynamic socialist economy. Workers have the right to form unions freely, and to strike and engage in other forms of job actions. Worker and community control make it possible to combine life at work, home and in the community into a meaningful whole for adults and children. Girls and boys are encouraged to grow up able to choose freely the shape of their lives and work without gender and racial stereotyping. Children are provided with the care, goods and services, and support that they need, and are protected from abuse.

Ecological Harmony

A socialist society carefully plans its way of life and technology to be a harmonious part of our natural environment. This planning takes place on regional, national, and international levels and covers the production of energy, the use of scarce resources, land-use planning, the prevention of pollution and the preservation of wildlife. The cleanup of the contaminated environment and the creation of a nuclear-free world are among the first tasks of a socialist society.

Socialist Strategy

Socialist Feminism and Women's Liberation

Socialist feminism confronts the common root of sexism, racism and classism: the determination of a life of oppression or privilege based on accidents of birth or circumstances. Socialist feminism is an inclusive way of creating social change. We value synthesis and cooperation rather than conflict and competition.
We work against the exploitation and oppression of women who live with lower wages, inferior working conditions and subordination in the home, in society and in politics. Socialists struggle for the full freedom of women and men to control their own bodies and reproductive systems and to determine their own sexual orientation. We stand for the right of women to choose to have a safe and legal abortion, at no cost, regardless of age, race, or circumstance.
Women’s independent organizations and caucuses are essential to full liberation, both before and after the transformation to socialism. Women will define their own liberation.

Liberation of Oppressed People

Bigotry and discrimination help the ruling class divide, exploit, and abuse workers here and in the Third World. The Socialist Party works to eliminate prejudice and discrimination in all its forms. We recognize the right of self-defense in the face of attacks; we also support non-violent direct action in combating oppression. We fully support strong and expanded affirmative action programs to help combat the entrenched inertia of a racist and sexist system which profits from discrimination and social division.
People of color, lesbians and gays, and other oppressed groups need independent organization to fight oppression. Racism will not be eliminated merely by eliminating capitalism.

International Solidarity & Peace

People around the world have more in common with each other than with their rulers. We condemn war, preparation for war, and the militaristic culture because they play havoc with people's lives and divert resources from constructive social projects. Militarism also concentrates even greater power in the hands of the few, the powerful and the violent. We align with no nation, but only with working people throughout the world.

Internal Democracy

Socialism and democracy are one and indivisible. The Socialist Party is democratic, with its structure and practices visible and accessible to all members. We reject dogma and promote internal debate. The Socialist Party is a "multi-tendency" organization. We orient ourselves around our principles and develop a common program, but our members have various underlying philosophies and views of the world. Solidarity within the party comes from the ability of those with divergent views on some issues to engage in a collective struggle towards social revolution. We strive to develop feminist practice within the party.

Cultural Freedom

Art is an integral part of daily life. It should not be treated as just a commodity. Socialists work to create opportunities for participation in art and cultural activities. We work for the restoration and preservation of the history and culture of working people, women, and oppressed minorities.

The Personal as Political

Living under domination and struggling against it exact a personal toll. Socialists regard the distortion of personal life and interpersonal relations under capitalism as a political matter. Socialism must ultimately improve life; this cannot be accomplished by demanding that personal lives be sacrificed for the movement. We cherish the right of personal privacy and the enrichment of culture through diversity.

Electoral Action

Socialists participate in the electoral process to present socialist alternatives. The Socialist Party does not divorce electoral politics from other strategies for basic change. While a minority, we fight for progressive changes compatible with a socialist future. When a majority we will rapidly introduce those changes, which constitute socialism, with priority to the elimination of the power of big business through public ownership and workers' control.
By participating in local government, socialists can support movements of working people and make improvements that illustrate the potential of public ownership. We advocate electoral action independent of the capitalist-controlled two-party system.

Democratic Revolution From Below

No oppressed group has ever been liberated except by its own organized efforts to overthrow its oppressors. A society based on radical democracy, with power exercised through people's organizations, requires a socialist transformation from below. People's organizations cannot be created by legislation, nor can they spring into being only on the eve of a revolution.
They can grow only in the course of popular struggles, especially those of women, labor, and minority groups. The Socialist Party works to build these organizations democratically.
The process of struggle profoundly shapes the ends achieved. Our tactics in the struggle for radical democratic change reflect our ultimate goal of a society founded on principles of egalitarian, non-exploitative and non-violent relations among all people and between all peoples.
To be free we must create new patterns for our lives and live in new ways in the midst of a society that does not understand and is often hostile to new, better modes of life. Our aim is the creation of a new social order, a society in which the commanding value is the infinite preciousness of every woman, man and child.

reply to post by dawnstar


Well I don't know any men personally who for instance have sprung for a ukranian bride, but I imagine it is done in part by wealthy men either to enhance that persons personal life or as a path to citizenship. But I would only be guessing, like I said I don't know of any one personally who has ever done this.

As for the wage thing. I think it is a moot point and the only reason feminism argues this is because it is so abstract that it's hard to prove either way. I think it is not as big an issue as people seem to think, there are women that make more than men, does that mean that I am going to cry injustice? No.

To each according to his or her own ability.

Your right that things have never been perfect, but women have the right to vote and even run for president so whats your problem?

It is also already covered in the US Constitution anyways.

"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Boo yah

reply to post by no thing


I have not seen the movie but I will check it out. I hope it's not another Michael Moore movie but I will take a look.

I have worked in the mortgage industry as well as car sales, I am aware of what goes on. I remember a story 10 years ago where a Spanish speaking family got duped into 14% interest on their mortgage. Some people get a 5 year arm and don't refinance and get in alot of trouble because after five years it becomes variable. Some people sign up for variable rates on credit cards and get screwed. I am not defending the credit industry, but people are just as guilty of not reading or fully understanding their contracts before signing. The best thing you can do is try not to rely on credit at all and be educated about what contract you are signing.

The reason for the financial meltdown was because of inflation from the fed and the economy, people losing their jobs and not being able to pay their mortgages.

Inside Job? That sounds to me like SEIU's Andy Stern encouraging people to default on mortgages and student loans. People like Andy Stern do not belong anywhere in our government, inside job is exactly right. Here I will call them out by name, ready....here it goes.

Radical Left wing Democratic Socialists and labor unions, theres your inside job.

reply to post by thehoneycomb

I believe that the wage thing came up because it kind of explains why women have been traditionally the ones who receives the child custody. the alternative would give the custody to the man, who in most cases is the bigger wage earner and well, that added responsibility would more than likely diminish his earning potential, just like it does to the women once they have the kids... I agree, it is starting to equalize out some, and well, like I mentioned before, the courts are now starting to look a joint custody as being a better option....and I agree with this.

reply to post by dawnstar


I think that a woman should be able to work if she wants and if she has the ability to stay home with the kids thats great too, the child support system is a bit messed up that may be why or at least in part there are more woman working these days because we have moved away from our values, at least in legal matters that is and the child support system is a failure but many women think that it could be a financial benefit which in some cases it can, but when a family is divided it affects the man, the woman and the child negatively, we need a system that doesn't take sides but promotes togetherness and at least cooperation from both sides.

reply to post by thehoneycomb


Honeycomb.

Thank you for the page you posted. I had asked you about socialism as it began developing at the beginning of the last century and your statement that it was in part feminist. My question came from my understanding that early Socialism had as a fault, a lack of gender equality and that the adoption of feminism as a plank of the socialist agenda did not happen until the 1970's. The way I took your statement was that you believed socialism to be in part originally developed by feminists.

But your first quote here raises my real question.

THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community.

First this whole quote sounds to me like an idealist's pipe dream. But even so, just what is there here that you disagree with?
Is it the idea of a radical democracy?
Is it the idea of placing peoples lives under their own control?
Is it the non racist aspect of their plans?
Is it the classless part?
Is it that you don't favor sexual equality?
It certainly can't be people cooperating at work at home and in the community.

Just what am I supposed to be afraid of here?

Yours
T

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


First when I said that it started in the turn of the century I was speaking about America and the deconstruction of our constitution by amending laws that were in opposition to our constitutional laws.

To answer your question it is all wrong.

There will never be a society that is fair, for we live in a world where people live and die and so do animals and such is life. It is always changing. People have every right to be different, by being different I mean that they have a right to associate with whom they want and to not to associate with those who they don't. It is only natural to seek out those who you have in common with. You live, you learn, you teach, you get old and die.

Every living thing has a purpose, a bee carries pollen from one flower to another and meanwhile it returns to the hive to better its brothers and sisters and to serve the queen. This is the order. Did you not notice that ant colonies are much like humans? Did you notice that they too honor and respect one another?

Everything is wrong with that statement for it's intent is to eliminate indifference or individuality which we should embrace. Everyone has a purpose but not every ones purpose is the same. Life is dependent upon many different things, every living thing on this planet helps make earth habitable.

Is not what happened to the housing market enough proof for you? How about bank's relation to drug cartels?

reply to post by thehoneycomb

Everything is wrong with that statement for it's intent is to eliminate indifference or individuality which we should embrace. Everyone has a purpose but not every ones purpose is the same. Life is dependent upon many different things, every living thing on this planet helps make earth habitable.

You say"or individuality which we should embrace. Everyone has a purpose but not every ones purpose is the same". This statement is core to my understanding of our lives and I am not surprised that it is to yours also.
Yet for some reason you and I seem to have fallen to different interpretations of whatever it s that threatens our individuality.

I know that I personally am threatened by the collective nature of humans. You brought up bees and ants. Man I can't tell you how , though I find them fascinating, the thought of being in common with either of these scares the juice out of me. Every time I see crowds of people on film I cringe and when I encounter them in real life I turn and head in the other direction, but mostly this is besides the point.

I feel threatened by capitalism, I think you got that. What I get from our conversation is you feel likewise about socialism. Both are power systems. Socialism when combined with this ant like quality of humans can easily take the road to communism and totalitarianism. Capitalism when combined with the ant like quality of humans can easily take the road to corporatism and totalitarianism.

So what do we do now?

reply to post by thehoneycomb

"promotes togetherness and at least cooperation from both sides. "

kind of socialistic values here, isn't there,......
matter of fact, the way families....at least the more successful ones,.......well, it's kind socialistic, wouldn't you say,
I mean, ya, dads make the money, but, it kind of in many ways becomes the families money, the resources are shared, and the responsibilies are kind of delegated out to all, so that everyone plays a role to play......

maybe it isn't so much that socialism is wrong as it it that there are proper ways to used those concepts, and for the most part, well, they're not being used correctly in the gov't, or maybe well......the gov't shouldn't be stepping into the areas where those philosophies actually do benefit???

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


I understand, I came from the same background and I used to think that capitalism was the problem in modern society, but I don't know one day I woke up to the reality that in the United States we have been far removed from capitalism. Now I don't know where you come from, but what is wrong with the core values of the US Constitution. I can not find anything wrong can you?

Capitalism is not about taking advantage of others to benefit the wealthy. It is a system in which anybody who works hard enough can become successful. There is equal opportunity for everybody.

Try this, do a google search for socialist/communist countries and you should notice that they dominate most of the world. The United States it still for the most part in tact but if it were to fall, there would be global socialism. This is the New World Order which the powers that be have sought for.

The reason socialism has gained momentum is because it appeals to the masses. Especially after the whole debacle with America being in three wars.

Anyhow both have not very many things in common.

Capitalism is a more conservative, less government, pro business, in other words it let's society change according to where business goes.

Communism/Socialism both require more government because if everything is distributed evenly and everything is fair there will need to be more government to enforce, more laws that try to make "everything fair" but meanwhile "freedom" there is no such thing at this point, there is no wealth there is no opportunity to better ones self. They will need more tax payer money to run their institutions etc, it becomes a welfare state where EVERYONE is dependent upon the state.

Where do we go. Communism/Socialism is nothing new to America. Did you know that before Republicans won the house their were over 70 members of the socialist party in congress?

So where do we go from here? We root out the members of our government that support anti-American policies, we do everything in our power to restore the Constitution, which was there to protect us from socialism as well as the banks, taxes etc.

Make no mistake, worldwide socialism is in fact worldwide slavery.

Sure it all sounds great until it comes to power, it's not really about human rights after that. It does not care about human rights make no mistakes about it.

reply to post by dawnstar


If there is a complete move to the left it leaves no balance. Both exist together, both hinge on some of the same ideals.