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Title: Is math man made, or did math make man?

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posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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Scenario:
I once had an internet debate (argument) with someone, on this subject and wanted to pass the frustrations and brain-hurt on to you guys.

Question:
Is mathematics our way of coping with reality, and explaining things in a way we can understand it? Are the laws of physics just a part of nature, with no math involved?

..or does nature use math (in an unspoken way) to create everything around us?


Opinion:
This is something that is very hard for me to describe, but I think that "Nature" it's self is a giant calculator or program that uses a physical representation of math. The endless amounts of fractals in nature prove that to me..

But what is math, if a conscious being didn't create it? Maybe this is just "the way it is", the way things unfolded, and we really use math just to figure it out?

What came first, the chicken or the egg? If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, etc. etc.


I also wanted to add, that if math needs a conscious mind for it to exist.. humans weren't the first to invent it.
edit on 28-4-2011 by jessejamesxx because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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Math is the implicit structure-language of the universe; it is the universe.



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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I believe math explains the physics of THIS planet.. and is BEGINNING to explain the physics of our solar system..
I believe math is only a notion of what really is.. What is, to me, is far more complex than mathematical formulas...
It has to do with, not the angels, not our creator, but the Creator of All Things... bigger than our creator..
This universe is ITS creation, we barely exist in it...
We can only logically decipher the secret nature of the way he creates... and try to explain it via "Math"
But in all reality...
We may never know...

Is best to become an artist or artisan and love someone

Start a family and make more artists, artisans and lovers

Lets re-create the heavens...



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by OrganicAnagram33
Math is the implicit structure-language of the universe; it is the universe.

I completely agree!

But the questioning of if a conscious is needed for math to exist makes me wonder... Does the universe need a consciousness to exist? I think I just blew my own mind... !



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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The symbols that we use to express the concepts and functions are man-made though, obviously.

Math and logic are therefore most likely our best bet in communicating with extraterrestrial beings. Although, there is currently a debate on how universal physical/mathematical laws are throughout the universe. Some scientists speculate that different areas may have different laws... I really find it hard to wrap my head around honestly.
edit on 28-4-2011 by OrganicAnagram33 because: Spelling



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by MikeyBones
 


I think you would like the quantum activist with Dr. Amit Goswami, Ph.D.

Basically he is using quantum mechanics to prove that consciousness is the fabric of the universe.

Everything manifest came from a universal consciousness.



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by zroth
reply to post by MikeyBones
 


I think you would like the quantum activist with Dr. Amit Goswami, Ph.D.

Basically he is using quantum mechanics to prove that consciousness is the fabric of the universe.

Everything manifest came from a universal consciousness.


I'm glad you liked that one.

The next one for me after that was "The Primacy of Consciousness" a lecture by Peter Russell. Readily available on the internet.



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by heavenlysouldier
It has to do with, not the angels, not our creator, but the Creator of All Things... bigger than our creator..
This universe is ITS creation, we barely exist in it...
We can only logically decipher the secret nature of the way he creates... and try to explain it via "Math"


Then who created the 'creator of all things'..... math?


I think math is just an explanation of the forces in the universe, that's why natural mathematical phenomena exist, because of the forces that act upon them. Math didn't create the forces. The forces, like gravity, exist as they do, and we use math to try and explain them because they seem to be logically connected.
edit on 4/28/2011 by scojak because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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I use math every single day of my life. With man's necessity, math was born. First, man wanted to count and take away. Simple arithmetic. I have the sum of 4 apples for instance. Man wanted to measure to create and build. As our understanding of life increased, we needed a way to quantify things efficiently. Multiplication and division was born. As man realized that the world was not in whole, fractions were created. Our technology was ever evolving of course, and math was becoming an integral part of life. Then we were curious to study rates and areas and graphs. Newton and Leibniz brought about calculus. These were man made, because of man's necessity for math.

Geometry, however, is a different beast. Geometry made man. Geometry is NOT man made. You may find geometry in the observable universe, and most importantly of all, you can find geometry here on earth. Not man made, natural. www.miqel.com...





edit on 28-4-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by MikeyBones
 


The way I see it is that there is no way for consciousness not to exist. It is a fundamental and perennial feature. This is because reality is self creating, self-sustaining based on concepts alone.

For example, even our prominent theories of cosmology agree with this. First there was nothing, and then something (big bang). It's the dichotomy that is self-creating and destroying. Therefore, if we say there is nothing, or a lack of consciousness, then we are implicitly saying there is consciousness. How do you know whether something is short without comparing it to something that is long. Duality, which then leads to a synthesis of the opposites that gives us a glimpse of creation.



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by jessejamesxx
Question:
Is mathematics our way of coping with reality, and explaining things in a way we can understand it? Are the laws of physics just a part of nature, with no math involved?


Divine intervention and knowledge? Higher power, Great Spirit aka GOD etc? [Not talking about what "Religion" has tried to hijack and twist here] Is there a greater force at work than simply nature and it's random equations, mutations and creations?


..or does nature use math (in an unspoken way) to create everything around us?








Opinion:
This is something that is very hard for me to describe, but I think that "Nature" it's self is a giant calculator or program that uses a physical representation of math. The endless amounts of fractals in nature prove that to me..


When we get down to the tiniest of known matter we revert back to philosophy in an attempt to make sense of it all. The "Laws" break down at the sub-atomic level. Strange, how that also appears to happen on the Macro level. BIG BANG?


But what is math, if a conscious being didn't create it? Maybe this is just "the way it is", the way things unfolded, and we really use math just to figure it out?


It is the way it is...
Are we at the level where we can understand how things are? Is our math up to the task of understanding the BIGGER picture?



I also wanted to add, that if math needs a conscious mind for it to exist.. humans weren't the first to invent it.





posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by heavenlysouldier
 
I didn't even think of the 'God' side of things.. kind of throws a monkey wrench into the whole debate.

Can we discuss that aspect when I make the "Is god man made, or did god make man" thread?



Originally posted by zroth
reply to post by MikeyBones
 
Basically he is using quantum mechanics to prove that consciousness is the fabric of the universe.

Everything manifest came from a universal consciousness.

*Head Explodes*
edit on 28-4-2011 by jessejamesxx because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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Feels like a way of understanding that around us, in my opinion. Humans, in general, are very curious about things and do their best to understand that which they do not know. As such, the origination of math could simply be our way to make sense of things -- or attempt to.

Same question can be applied to religion: Did we make God? Or did God make us?



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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There was a thread very similar to this floating around about two years ago, same exact title if I remember.
Just so that everyone is on the same page, which math are you referring to the forces of physics and nature or the studies recorded by man?
I think Math is nature itself, while math (little 'm') should be considered as the equations developed by Man in his quest to study nature.
Think of it as the scaffold that was once erected to study nature and physics.

Math is embedded in nature by design because it is a big part of nature.
...example, a fractal has Math/math written all over it, yet it still has very limitless, random and beautiful elements of design.
It's chaos and beauty and everything in between.

Why is that?



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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I think that math is both man made and man's maker. It is man made because it is man that first counted, devised algebra, explored quantum mathematics. It is also man's maker at the level of creation - math was immanent in the cosmic explosion that created the numberless elements of man's parts.

Great post, conceptually really interesting - my head is exploding too!



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Math is the expression of inherent relationships within the universe. We certainly did not create it. We discovered it and then described it within the framework of our comprehesive capacity.
edit on 28-4-2011 by Fiberx because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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I dont understand how nature can be math.
If you measure something you get an inaccurate snap shot.

For example, you measure a block of aluminum, it is 1x1x1 cm square.
But in reality that block is constantly changing shape at the plank scale.. and probably even smaller, we just cant measure that small.

So I think math is a kind of approximation of measurement, never to be exact.. because even if you could absolutely get an accurate measurement, it would change instantly because of reactions going on with electrons and such.

That being said, we can measure at a level where we can use certain things with a level of predictability.
Airplanes, bridges, cars etc...



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:22 PM
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S&F

and i think the chicken or the egg scenario is near perfect for this quandary... my pet peeve happens to be time, which is clearly man made, and by time i mean the clock on the wall and the calendar, which are just another equation..
but it's obvious we are not in control of numbers, the proof is in the pudding, or actually i mean in the PI... there is an equation that we have yet to solve, which only goes to show the belief that we control numbers is completely false... sorry, hope i didn't stray too far from your OP, but i am glad you brought this up, it has been an issue to me for as long as i can remember, especially with the closed minded friends i've had over the years who are just so willing to except things just 'as they are'... not this guy!!!

by the way, anyone ever seen the movie PI? completely awesome and insane at the same time
edit on 28-4-2011 by schitzoandro because: add info



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Fiberx
 


so very well put, i am wrong in saying that we 'created math', in that you are correct, sometimes i have an easier time with the thought and a difficult time with making that thought into words. and it is obvious that our capacity is unable to comprehend a sufficient grasp of the complete picture, so we sugar coat it and think we know how to control it... we do not, and of which belief i have no culpability.
edit on 28-4-2011 by schitzoandro because: grammatical



posted on Apr, 28 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by R3KR
I dont understand how nature can be math.
If you measure something you get an inaccurate snap shot.

For example, you measure a block of aluminum, it is 1x1x1 cm square.
But in reality that block is constantly changing shape at the plank scale.. and probably even smaller, we just cant measure that small.

So I think math is a kind of approximation of measurement, never to be exact.. because even if you could absolutely get an accurate measurement, it would change instantly because of reactions going on with electrons and such.

That being said, we can measure at a level where we can use certain things with a level of predictability.
Airplanes, bridges, cars etc...


To the human brain it would be hard to have an accurate measurement. If you had an infinite super computer at your disposal, you could plot every atom/electron in your 4d grid. Man's math is very small view into nature's math, in my opinion.

I guess a big factor behind how you feel about this subject, is how you feel about the idea of a "holographic universe". Nature equaling math doesn't seem like a huge stretch if you feel that our reality is solely located in our brains through perception.



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