Two groups of Middle Eastern men caught on the Arizona/Mexico border...others managed to escape

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback

Originally posted by SiCkBoY

That was a comment on the post he made, or did you not see that. Have you seen Israel lately, is it working there?

The Israeli wall has been working very well. Now rather than suicide bombing offensives, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al-Aqsa Martyrs have taken to launching inaccurate and ineffective rockets into Israeli territory.

You sound like a combination of Sinead O'Connor and Bono (that's not a compliment).

[edit on 7/29/2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

It�s working so well that they can now go into the Palestinian areas and take more of their land, kill a few people with American Gun-ships and then back off to their safe place, because of a wall.

Here�s a new angle on the wall, maybe they feel so lonely in Israel they need a wall around them to make them happy again!

And as for �You sound like a combination of Sinead O'Connor and Bono (that's not a compliment)� you don�t know how I sound as you have never heard me, so wtf?, Ooh I see! You mean I seem like a cross between them two people, hey kid; we share a common language called English, let�s both try and use it in the future, as I do hate carrying people.

Originally posted by SiCkBoY
It�s working so well that they can now go into the Palestinian areas and take more of their land, kill a few people with American Gun-ships and then back off to their safe place, because of a wall.

The barrier between Israel and Gaza strip has pretty much, if not totally, eliminated suicide bombers coming from that territory. And while the wall with the West Bank should be built on the actual boundary with Israel and not inside the West Bank, it's effectiveness can't be denied. Which brings us back to the border problem between the United States and Mexico. Barriers already exist along certain parts of the border in California, and they're pretty shoddily made. Seeing how the barriers are very successful at keeping determined murderers out of Israel, it stands to reason that a similar barrier can achieve similar results against a less determined invader.

And as for �You sound like a combination of Sinead O'Connor and Bono (that's not a compliment)� you don�t know how I sound as you have never heard me, so wtf?, Ooh I see! You mean I seem like a cross between them two people, hey kid; we share a common language called English, let�s both try and use it in the future, as I do hate carrying people.

It means you sound like those whiny one world Irish activists always protesting against some "injustice" like Sinead O'Connor and Bono did/do. Let me ask you, are you some IRA sympathizer? It wouldn't shock me if you were given the bond the IRA has felt with the PLO.

[edit on 7/30/2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

would do it but the walling wouldn't stop there. We'd soon have a plethora of walled communites, walled corporate parks, walled shopping facilities, etc. Isreal needs to come up with a better answer. I don't think they realize they're building a large ghetto in Palestine. I'm not talking NYC or DC ghetto, I'm talking WW II Warsaw Ghetto, where Jews were the kept and not the keepers. It's not the answer. And we certainly shouldn't emulate it on our border with Mexico.

Mining isn't the answer either. It would only create an entire generation of severely pissed, one-legged Mexicans. The ultimate solution would be to make life as good on the Mexican side of the border as on the US side of the border. Of course, if you can't move the border, you can move the people living nearby. I would speculate that that's what we're experiencing now. The US has always absorbed the best and the brightest the world has to offer. Now, we're absorbing everyday working people and allowing them an opportunity as well.

As these folk assimilate with American society and culture, will they someday long to return to Mexico? Will they conspire to split-off the American Southwest as a seperate country? Hardly. They will become Americans. Just as the Italians, the Polish, the French, the Irish, the English and all the other nationalities that have immigrated here have become.

Yes, they are getting in the "backdoor" so to speak. Yes, they are entering our country illegally. But, these people only want what those that came before them wanted...to live with the freedom to worship the god of their choosing, to be able to speak their mind in an open forum such as this one and the freedom to build a financial future for themselves and their families. After a few generations, we won't be able to distinguish between "Mexican" and "American", they're blood will run with our blood as one.

Speaking of blood, there are young Mexicans serving in our military now, fighting, perhaps even dying, in Iraq for the opportunity, the priviledge of becoming a citizen of the USA. God bless them and keep them safe. May their god (more than likely the Christian God) give them a peaceful and bountiful life when they return. I humbly thank them for their service and for their bravery.

Back to the most recent wall, the wall in Isreal. Roger Waters just declared open season on it. I think Waters is in his 50's now. I would put my money on Waters outlasting that wall. As Ronald Reagan might have put it, Mr. Sharon, this wall must come down!

So, I have digressed mightily from the initiating comments on this thread, the concern about terrorists entering the US via the Mexican (or, for that matter, the much, much longer Canadian) border. What can be done? I would hope that we're watching the ingress points in Mexico (and Canada) such as ports of call and airports and electronically tagging those individuals that appear suspicious so we can track their movements inside Mexico (and Canada) and the US. I would hope they would lead us to even more suspicious individuals and we could then study them and perhaps turn some of them. I'm not sure of the technology involved but I'm sure we're capable. If not, we could simply intercept them, torture them to learn where they're going and what they're doing, assume their identities (if deemed wothwhile) and start working on the inside. Or, we could just torture them, extract as much info as possible and give them a one-way to Gitmo, track down any leads here or abroad and keep on hunting down their vermin brethren.

Originally posted by SiCkBoY
I strongly suggest you go read some other news channel and stop listening to the propaganda being spooned to you by FOX.

You assume far too much.

Go and kill the enemy in their own country and then construct a big fence around your own, Wise up.

On which "news channel" are you hearing that we are killing Mexicans and constructing a big fence along the border?

Irony is a dish best served with a side of intelligence. Knee-jerk anti-Jewish reactions are seen all too often from those who allow their opinions to be formed for them.


In any event... the issue remains that one means of entry into the United States is not secure, known not to be secure, and seemingly destined to remain so through issues of budgetary shortsightedness.

However, one person would have important this issue deflected to a private agenda regarding Israeli national policy.

Originally posted by Eastern_DiamondbackThe barrier between Israel and Gaza strip has pretty much, if not totally, eliminated suicide bombers coming from that territory.

I agree with you diamond.

If we were to put up a wall (either physically or with our military) this might eleminate the illegal immigrants. I have come to the conclusion that I don't care where they are from.

Originally posted by SiCkBoY

Originally posted by Gazrok

why, how very Jew-erican of you.

Oh please...that is crap. Would you rather have these illegals OF ANY NATIONALITY coming over here illegally and no one knowing who they are or why they are here? This is 2004 and we are at war with terror. Our borders are going to be the death of us yet. The reason being if we don't do something about the flow of illegals into this country....the BAD GUYS are gonna get in. How smart do you have to be to realize that? HMMMMM?

Originally posted by sosuemetoo

Originally posted by Eastern_DiamondbackThe barrier between Israel and Gaza strip has pretty much, if not totally, eliminated suicide bombers coming from that territory.

I agree with you diamond.

If we were to put up a wall (either physically or with our military) this might eleminate the illegal immigrants. I have come to the conclusion that I don't care where they are from.

It's nice to have the support of a fellow Illinoisan. I don't know if you're from the Chicago area, from the Quad Cities area, or downstate, but up in the Chicago area there's also a number of Polish and other Eastern European illegal aliens who I consider no different than the Mexicans and other Latin Americans here illegally. The racial issues with respect to illegal immigration are merely coincidental.

Don't stop illegal immigrants. If you do, who the # is doing my housework and cutting the grass? I hate you racist a-holes.

Originally posted by hideous_toejam
would do it but the walling wouldn't stop there. We'd soon have a plethora of walled communites, walled corporate parks, walled shopping facilities, etc. Isreal needs to come up with a better answer. I don't think they realize they're building a large ghetto in Palestine. I'm not talking NYC or DC ghetto, I'm talking WW II Warsaw Ghetto, where Jews were the kept and not the keepers. It's not the answer. And we certainly shouldn't emulate it on our border with Mexico.

Walled communities, walled parks, and shopping facilities? Bro, much like a country; people can put a wall/fence around their house to keep out unwanted animals, people, garbage, etc. This doesn't mean we build walls/fences around our fridges, and our living rooms to keep out riff raff as well...

Mining isn't the answer either. It would only create an entire generation of severely pissed, one-legged Mexicans. The ultimate solution would be to make life as good on the Mexican side of the border as on the US side of the border. Of course, if you can't move the border, you can move the people living nearby. I would speculate that that's what we're experiencing now. The US has always absorbed the best and the brightest the world has to offer. Now, we're absorbing everyday working people and allowing them an opportunity as well.

Mining is a very reasonable idea. The mines would be used for a defensive role, and most likely be in a MARKED minefield. What would most likely happen is you'ld have an outer perimeter, and an inner perimeter. Inbetween these two perimeters is where the minefield would be placed. Thus, any illegal person planning on entering the U.S. would have to pass over, or through, one 10 foot, barbwired gate, and knowingly walk into a marked minefield. If he does so, it would be under his own volition. With the mines marked, and perimeter CLEARLY marked... there'd be no problem. Should someone cross the first marked gate, walk into the marked minefield, and get fragged then it simply is his, or her fault (unless of course there thrown in...:@@

On another note.... making life just as good on their side, as it is on our side? That would involve our money. US as tax payers if we started making their side just as favorable as our side. We should not have to be paying for their side, thats THEIR gov'ts duty. If their gov't is not performing the duties to which it must do, then it is the people that need to change their gov't, or get used to it. I know its easier said than done, but common... decades ago, the americans fought in their own revoultion to get rid of a gov't that they were unhappy with... are we the only ones that are capable of this? I certainly hope not. The freedom we love here in the US came to us at a price, if other countries wish for their own political, religious, and economic freedom then they too will have a price to pay for it. OR once again.... they're welcome to come here legally... or if they must, try going for asylum[spelling?] if they must. When my grandfather came to the US many years ago from a corrupt El Salvador, he came here under political asylum... (he played a small role in the ES gov't, and they we're trying to kill off loose, unwanted ends... aka him.) He made it here, and was eventually able to go for citizenship too. (on a side note I'm 1/4 el salvadorian, 3/4 peurto rican)

As these folk assimilate with American society and culture, will they someday long to return to Mexico? Will they conspire to split-off the American Southwest as a seperate country? Hardly. They will become Americans. Just as the Italians, the Polish, the French, the Irish, the English and all the other nationalities that have immigrated here have become.

If they wish to be assimilated into the american culture they are totally 100% free to do so. If they want to become americans, let them do so legally. By sneaking through our borders they totally undermine the whole process we use to grant citizenship.

Yes, they are getting in the "backdoor" so to speak. Yes, they are entering our country illegally. But, these people only want what those that came before them wanted...to live with the freedom to worship the god of their choosing, to be able to speak their mind in an open forum such as this one and the freedom to build a financial future for themselves and their families. After a few generations, we won't be able to distinguish between "Mexican" and "American", they're blood will run with our blood as one.

If these people desire freedom; then they are totally entitled to it. They can:

A) Come to the US legally
B) Revolt against their corrupt government, and fight for freedom. (Once again; its easier said than done, I know. Yet its been done before (and worked), on more than one occasion... not just for the U.S.)
C) Go to a different country which offers the freedom they want.
D) Find a way to slowly reform their gov't.

Speaking of blood, there are young Mexicans serving in our military now, fighting, perhaps even dying, in Iraq for the opportunity, the priviledge of becoming a citizen of the USA. God bless them and keep them safe. May their god (more than likely the Christian God) give them a peaceful and bountiful life when they return. I humbly thank them for their service and for their bravery.

I wish them the same. My heart is out there with every single guy out on the line.

Back to the most recent wall, the wall in Isreal. Roger Waters just declared open season on it. I think Waters is in his 50's now. I would put my money on Waters outlasting that wall. As Ronald Reagan might have put it, Mr. Sharon, this wall must come down!

So, I have digressed mightily from the initiating comments on this thread, the concern about terrorists entering the US via the Mexican (or, for that matter, the much, much longer Canadian) border. What can be done? I would hope that we're watching the ingress points in Mexico (and Canada) such as ports of call and airports and electronically tagging those individuals that appear suspicious so we can track their movements inside Mexico (and Canada) and the US. I would hope they would lead us to even more suspicious individuals and we could then study them and perhaps turn some of them. I'm not sure of the technology involved but I'm sure we're capable. If not, we could simply intercept them, torture them to learn where they're going and what they're doing, assume their identities (if deemed wothwhile) and start working on the inside. Or, we could just torture them, extract as much info as possible and give them a one-way to Gitmo, track down any leads here or abroad and keep on hunting down their vermin brethren.

[edit on 29-7-2004 by oui]

We dont need a high and mighty wall like China did or Israel is doing now. What we need to do is protect the border.

The way this can be done is spend three times the money now spent each year on the border patrol, which is a small fraction of the money spent to fight the aftermath of say, the side effects of the war on terror concerning Iraq.

Expand the border patrol and put up a light wall in high traffic areas. Also we need more electronic sensors in place to stop tunneling in major cities across the border from one another where the traffic can proceed underground from private property accross the border from other private property and to notify us of large foot traffic in areas not normally covered by this expanded force which I think should be about three times bigger in manpower than it is now. Dont forget the Coast Guard money which is also about three times less than what they should get each year.

If we spend 5% of the money that we are spending now in the war on terrorism beyond what is spent, we could control our borders on all fronts about 300% better than we are doing now which wouldn't be perfect but that would be impossible.

As was said earlier this would cramp the guts of both major parties because it would stop the cheap labor that cuts the grass of the big shots and washes their cars. This may or may not be a problem but I do think it all comes down to money. Money is the root of all evil.

Originally posted by hideous_toejam
It's not the answer. And we certainly shouldn't emulate it on our border with Mexico.

The political issues are not analogous. Mexico is a functioning (though poorly functiong), independent country with its own economy and own culture. The United States of America is a fully functioning, independent nation with its own economy and culture. The practical benefits of a barrier between Palestinian territories and Israel, and Mexico and the United States are the same: keeping out people who have no right to enter.

Mining isn't the answer either. It would only create an entire generation of severely pissed, one-legged Mexicans. The ultimate solution would be to make life as good on the Mexican side of the border as on the US side of the border.

I'm not interested in killing or maiming any Mexicans or Central/South Americans. However, you act like so many other people with whom I've debated on this topic: that only one course of action can be taken. Mexico is not improving its situation by pawning off its poor Indian and mestizo populations on the United States. We can put up a wall AND encourage Mexico to improve its social situations involving these populations. It's not either or/ all or nothing.

Of course, if you can't move the border, you can move the people living nearby. I would speculate that that's what we're experiencing now. The US has always absorbed the best and the brightest the world has to offer. Now, we're absorbing everyday working people and allowing them an opportunity as well.

But don't you see? We're not absorbing them, and they are not interested in being absorbed. The Mexican government actively encourages their emigrants to not assimilate, but to think Mexico first. This is why they made it possible for Mexican citizen living in the United States to vote in Mexican elections. They want the United States to deal with the social costs of an alien population while Mexico gains the political advantages of having Mexicans first voting in Mexican and American elections in Mexico's interest.

As these folk assimilate with American society and culture, will they someday long to return to Mexico? Will they conspire to split-off the American Southwest as a seperate country? Hardly. They will become Americans. Just as the Italians, the Polish, the French, the Irish, the English and all the other nationalities that have immigrated here have become.

Most of the English (Anglo-Americans) like me are descended from people from colonial America. My ancestors weren't immigrants anymore than someone who moves from Michigan to Oregon is an immigrant.

As for the other nationalities, a few major differences exist between the Irish, Polish, Italian, and German, and the Mexicans today.

1. Mexico borders the United States and has a larger population than the others did or do today.
2. Mexicans have a historical gripe with the United States for supposedly "stealing their territory," which is an absurd contention and is based on poor historical knowledge.
3. Mexicans are often racially conscious and migrate to the United States in an era of [non-white] ethnic pride and multiculturalism, thus reducing their willingness to assimilate.
4. Mexicans are openly encouraged by their government to put their concerns for Mexico ahead of any concerns for the United States.
5. Much of the income that Mexicans work for in the United States is sent back to Mexico, thus benefiting their economy much more than it does ours.

Yes, they are getting in the "backdoor" so to speak. Yes, they are entering our country illegally. But, these people only want what those that came before them wanted...to live with the freedom to worship the god of their choosing, to be able to speak their mind in an open forum such as this one and the freedom to build a financial future for themselves and their families.

Mexicans come here to work. Not to be Americans. Not to partake in the American dream.

Speaking of blood, there are young Mexicans serving in our military now, fighting, perhaps even dying, in Iraq for the opportunity, the priviledge of becoming a citizen of the USA. God bless them and keep them safe. May their god (more than likely the Christian God) give them a peaceful and bountiful life when they return. I humbly thank them for their service and for their bravery.

Look, if an immigrant is willing to sacrifice his life for the dream of becoming an American citizen by fighting for this country, then more power to him. I support his efforts to become American citizens.

Back to the most recent wall, the wall in Isreal. Roger Waters just declared open season on it. I think Waters is in his 50's now. I would put my money on Waters outlasting that wall. As Ronald Reagan might have put it, Mr. Sharon, this wall must come down!

I'm kind of tired of hearing comparisons to the Berlin Wall. The Israeli wall is built to keep murderous Palestinians out of Israel, not to keep Israelis from leaving the country.

What if our 500 Billion dollar military was at home, protecting the country? I think a couple divisions on the US-Mexican border could patrol quite nicely. But oh wait, the military is out protecting us from Iraq's WMDs. I mean, his planned WMDs, I mean, um, freeing the Iraqi people, er, um, I mean fighting the terrorists in Iraq so we don't have to fight them here.

You assume far too much.

Go and kill the enemy in their own country and then construct a big fence around your own, Wise up.

"On which "news channel" are you hearing that we are killing Mexicans and constructing a big fence along the border? "

Hello! We are losing touch with the language again. Go back and read the thread/post I made again.

If you cant be bothered, I was referring to Iraq, going over there and killing the locals, than putting a big fence around the American borders, therefore keeping people out, remembering the whole point of the conversation was that so called terrorists could come into America Via the south, not Mexican people brains.

"Two groups of Middle Eastern men caught on the Arizona/Mexico border...others managed to escape"

It means you sound like those whiny one world Irish activists always protesting against some "injustice" like Sinead O'Connor and Bono did/do. Let me ask you, are you some IRA sympathizer? It wouldn't shock me if you were given the bond the IRA has felt with the PLO.

Lets not get into that, as I don�t want to humiliate you with your lack of world knowledge. Just keep in mind that America is the whole world, and the rest are just wee Islands, brains #2

Mining isn't the answer either. It would only create an entire generation of severely pissed, one-legged Mexicans. The ultimate solution would be to make life as good on the Mexican side of the border as on the US side of the border. Of course, if you can't move the border, you can move the people living nearby. I would speculate that that's what we're experiencing now. The US has always absorbed the best and the brightest the world has to offer. Now, we're absorbing everyday working people and allowing them an opportunity as well.

As these folk assimilate with American society and culture, will they someday long to return to Mexico?

Look, there are LEGAL ways to come here, I'm not saying to deny that...but I'm all for the one-legged Mexicans result if they try to come here ILLEGALLY, as it's effectively like taking money out my pockets and food out of my mouth.

As for longing to go back to Mexico...don't count on it. Why do you think we have so many Indian doctors? It's because they have programs where they have to return to India for a few years and practice...that's the deal for helping with med school. As soon as those years are over though, are they staying in India? Hell no!

that I think is pertinent to the argument against passive systems such as walls and mine fields. Click Here I think this article provides the emperical evidence that, not only would Mexicans and terrorists continue to circumnavigate any wall or mine field, but it would be the smarter ones that do so. However, we must not discount the power of free enterprise. We would certainly see businesses pop up on the Mexican side of the border such as "Stairway to Heaven" - a company that utilizes used airline stairway roll-ups as a way, for a small fee, to get folks over the wall and on their way to the promised land. Or, how about "Two-legged Trail to Freedom" , a guide service for negotiating a safe, and two-legged, pathway through the mine fileds.

Sorry, but I don't know how to do the copy and paste method so I could post your earlier comments and my response just below but I'll do my best to address your rebuttals.

Walls. Maybe because I grew up in the Berlin Wall era. Maybe because I see the chasm between the haves and have nots in America growing and deepening every day, but, to me, walls are exclusionary and, therefore, elitist. I despise elitism. I don't have the hatred in me to embrace exclusion. Walls are cages. It doesn't matter which side you're on. Walls block the horizon and the horizon is a favorite icon of mine. It denotes passage and change - as we pass over one horizon, we leave one behind and move to another. Horizon denotes hope, freedom and future. As we look to the horizon we know that something lies beyond. Man's wanderlust has always been fueled by his questing search of the horizon and the wonder of what lies beyond. To me, to block the horizon with a barrier is an attempt to crush some of the very stuff that men are comprised of. It is anti-man.

Mine field warnings? Maybe they could be printed in English too, no? Or maybe we could use "Boom" symbols in the hope that a baby toddler would understand? Perhaps that would be "Ba-ba boom" in baby speak? In Iraq, we could have leveled Fallujah 100 times over but we would have incurred the wrath and horror of all the world's peoples. On our Mexican and Canadian borders we could do the same with a mine field.

I think NAFTA is an effort, a small first step, to make life better in Mexico and Central America. Obviously, more needs to be done.

There's so much corruption in Mexico (I'm not sure my perception is valid). I don't have a great understanding of how deep it goes. The only thing I see, and this may be a very, very small part of it, is the money that comes from drug smuggling being used to buy-off gov't officials and police. If drugs were legalized, it would certainly remove the profit but that would leave a violent, intelligent and risk-taking element of society under-employed and unemployed. I wonder what they'd do with their time?

Eastern-Diamondback: Palestine is Isreal's harpy or to put it more primitively, their bitch, but a bitch with teeth. The walls a nice concept for trying to seperate these two but I think not unlike my link above, the harpy will find a way to get around it and get around it with a vengance.

I think you're right that things need to improve in Mexico to really resolve the illegal immigrant issue. I obviously disagree about the wall but, in fairness, we could have very dark days ahead and a wall, replete with towers and weaponry (and the friggin' mine fields too), may become necessary on both our Mexican and Canadian borders. I will be sad if that day comes. It will be the times of the anti-man.

The Mexican government can rail all they want about maintaining some type of control or influence with their emmigrants but, if I remember the story correctly, once Daisy left the farm, she never came back.

If you are of English descent, you're ancestors most certainly immigrated from England. If you're of Native American descent, then you are correct that your ancestors had not, in more recent history, immigrated. For more reading on who really conquered and peopled the Americas, check out this link -
Click Here

I was going to respond to the remainder of your rebuttals but as I re-read your responses to mine about "being tired" of this or that I "act like so many other people", I realized that whatever I would have to say to you would be treated in the same fashion. You're basically a blocked horizon, a closed door and, as such, not open to new ideas or perspectives...especially the very priggish remark about your ancestry. You're ancestors probably were English - probably Tories fighting to keep the status quo the same. Mine fought on the side of the Revolution and you know what, we won!

I think we should bring our troops home from Iraq and defend our own borders with them. Iraqi borders are secured by US armed forces but our own are not heh. What the heck kinda world do we live in.

X

I never understood why we don't have our military training on the border. We obviously have troops fighting in the desert terrain.

I live in the East Valley, in Arizona, and the local media here has NOT reported this incident once. I heard about it thru the internet, of course. The truth is that thouzands of people can enter Arizona and DO thru the pourous Mexican borders every day. All one needs to do is put on a Poncho, a mexican hat and you're in. Anyone can buy a car here with a Mexican liscence, get a liscence, then get credit cards...then rent a truck to do their evil deed and it is ALL OVERLOOKED! This administration IS allowing this to continue day after day, while issuing terror alerts on a daily basis. I say: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?????

Originally posted by SiCkBoY

Lets not get into that, as I don�t want to humiliate you with your lack of world knowledge. Just keep in mind that America is the whole world, and the rest are just wee Islands, brains #2

Well, you go ahead and try it. In the meantime, I have a fabulous work of art for you admire.

Is it art?