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Needed: A Little Help With That Double-Slit Experiment

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posted on May, 3 2011 @ 04:44 PM
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Again, I'm not really sure if you are actually having trouble comprehending the experiment or if you are just disturbed by the implications of the experiment and attempting to rationalize it...

Your bizarre hostility and dismissal of the conceptual interpretations makes me lean towards the latter.


Originally posted by sirnex
Physical systems interacting are NOT abstract. When the photons hit the detectors, they are not "abstractly" being detected/measured.


What you are confused about is the difference between the physical process being detected and the detection itself.

The detection of the physical interaction is conceptually a measurement.

It is just abstract information being captured.

It may be a physical process in the experiment but it is still not physically related to the particles.




posted on May, 3 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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Again, I'm not really sure if you are actually having trouble comprehending the experiment or if you are just disturbed by the implications of the experiment and attempting to rationalize it...


I'm not having any trouble at all. I've already posted two sources for you to learn from. You're still arguing from a misrepresentation of the experiment. The only thing I'm having trouble with at this point is deciding if you're a complete moron or just a kid still in school.


Your bizarre hostility and dismissal of the conceptual interpretations makes me lean towards the latter.


What hostility? My observations of you aren't out of hostility, they're just observations of you're (lack of) understanding of this topic. If I feel the need to put certain words in all caps, it's in hopes that you can see the words easier as I'm afraid you might be blind.


What you are confused about is the difference between the physical process being detected and the detection itself.


What in the hell are you talking about? We're not detecting abstract information. We're not detecting burning envelopes. We're not detecting computer screens. We're detecting physical interactions and these interactions cause other interactions... etc.


The detection of the physical interaction is conceptually a measurement.


You're an idiot, that's all I can say. The measurement IS the detection. The interactions get translated into abstract information after the completion of the experiment.


It is just abstract information being captured.


No, abstract information is being conveyed after the physical process is over with.


It may be a physical process in the experiment but it is still not physically related to the particles.


A physical process that is not physically related to the physical particles? You hit a new low...

Now I'm positive your a moron.



posted on May, 3 2011 @ 07:35 PM
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The fact is that no one on this thread....and I mean NO ONE really knows for sure what is happening in the 2 slit experiment.
To believe or act otherwise is intellectually dishonest. We don't have the tools or the comprehension at this time to grasp, let alone, explain to someone else what the true nature of these quantum effects are. Feel free to quote Wiki all you want but the editors of Wiki don't understand it either.

It's too bad this subject cannot be discussed without resorting to name calling and rudeness. Is this what ATS has come to? Surely we are better than that.

Flame away if you must.



posted on May, 3 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
You're an idiot, that's all I can say. The measurement IS the detection.


The detection IS the measurement. A measurement is abstract information.


Originally posted by sirnex
A physical process that is not physically related to the physical particles? You hit a new low...


It quantum physics you can't use a ruler. So the measurement must be built into the mechanism of the experiment. While it may literally be a physical detection; the existence of the detection is only the difference between abstract information existing. The detection's detection is a matter of a concept existing to be comprehended, it is not physically related to the particles. Also, proven by the retroactive influence.

What is erased is not the physical mechanism in the experiment but the result of the detection.

So what is being removed from reality is nothing but a counter, abstract information.


Originally posted by sirnex
Now I'm positive your a moron.


You really are going to feel silly about attacking me so dramatically when it finally clicks.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 04:15 AM
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reply to post by Jezus
 



The detection IS the measurement. A measurement is abstract information.


If you get shot in the face, is the interaction only abstract and you'll magically be fine if we destroy the gun afterwards? Just saying dude...


What is erased is not the physical mechanism in the experiment but the result of the detection.


Gave you two sources for you to quote the "erasure" process and what's being "erased". Just quote you it.


You really are going to feel silly about attacking me so dramatically when it finally clicks.


You're going to feel silly when you fail to quote the "erasure" aspect of the experiment provided in the two given sources earlier, and I quote it in my next reply to shut you the hell up about abstract information being erased.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 04:23 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


What i find most interesting about this thread is that you, the OP, posted saying a friend wanted you to de bunk the double slit experiment. You then went on to tell us your interpretation, although you said you are not married to this interpretation, you do seem pretty stuck to it.
There are two of you on this thread who are fighting the obvious.
The fact that you need to debunk it has clouded your vision.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 06:15 AM
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Only human beings can name and frame a 'thing'.
A 'thing' is a particle. A particle is a part of the whole.
'Things' do not exist until named and framed.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by sirnex
If you get shot in the face, is the interaction only abstract and you'll magically be fine if we destroy the gun afterwards? Just saying dude...


With this analogy you are proving you don't understand the detection.


Originally posted by sirnex
Gave you two sources for you to quote the "erasure" process and what's being "erased". Just quote you it.


This isn't going to help you comprehend the concept of detection creating abstract information...but you can reread it if you want...

"Here it is most interesting to note, as do the authors in the published version of the paper, that the "choice" of which direction the photon will take at BSA or BSB is made by QM itself. That is, the path at this juncture is 50-50 random. As we will see, this "choice" will determine the information available at the conclusion of the experiment. (The authors note that in other quantum eraser experiments, the choice is made by the experimentalist. [3])

The beamsplitter BS randomizes the path information, and thereby makes the which-path information unavailable, in the following manner.

For an idler photon coming from reflecting mirror MA, the beamsplitter BS will either reflect the idler photon into the detector D1; or it will allow the photon to pass through and continue toward the detector D2. There is a 50-50 chance either way. Similarly, for an idler photon coming from the other reflecting mirror MB, the beamsplitter BS will either reflect the idler photon into the detector D2; or it will allow the photon to pass through and continue toward the detector D1.

You can see that, with this 50-50 beam splitter, any photon arriving at detector D1 or D2 has an equal 50-50 chance of having been reflected from reflecting mirror MA or MB. It is therefore impossible to tell whether the photon was generated at region A of the crystal, or at region B. The which-path information encoded into the photons arriving at detectors D1 and D2 has been "erased."

Detectors D1 and D2 are placed at the two output ports of the BS, respectively, for erasing the which-path information.


Originally posted by Jezus
It quantum physics you can't use a ruler. So the measurement must be built into the mechanism of the experiment. While it may literally be a physical detection; the existence of the detection is only the difference between abstract information existing. The detection's detection is a matter of a concept existing to be comprehended, it is not physically related to the particles. Also, proven by the retroactive influence.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


What i find most interesting about this thread is that you, the OP, posted saying a friend wanted you to de bunk the double slit experiment. You then went on to tell us your interpretation, although you said you are not married to this interpretation, you do seem pretty stuck to it.
There are two of you on this thread who are fighting the obvious.
The fact that you need to debunk it has clouded your vision.


I'm not debunking the experiement, I'm questioning the translation of the experiment's indications by some who've offered it on this forum as proof of the primordial nature of human consciousness, or as evidence of infinite mulitverses (superposition theory). I do acknowledge the physical impact of human Intellect, but I place that relatively weak influence within the balance of competing informational influences that exist within any such experiment.

I also suggest that when examining event trajectories that occur free from the contextual confines of highly structured matrix umbrella events (ie; quantum-level activity), an observer must keep in mind the relative absence of ramification infrastructure (in the form of contextual precedence) that exists. We're used to tightly structured event channels, given that by the time any activity reaches our level of relative complexity, the layers have built to the point where all competing ramificational influences have left little wiggle room for what is allowed to occur. We call this impact "natural laws", and we do because they end up being immutable by the time we experience these open avenues of potential as directives as opposed to what they actually are: the only lanes left available.

If someone had posted a better option, I'd entertain it, but do you see anyone offering anything besides the tired old "the human consciousness creates reality" or "it can't be known" assertions that either clash horribly with the rest of what's been imposed upon us all as reality, or simply shrugs, turns on Dancing With The Stars, and opens a beer.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Only human beings can name and frame a 'thing'.
A 'thing' is a particle. A particle is a part of the whole.
'Things' do not exist until named and framed.


I'm sorry, but if that was true, then how did the particles that come together to assemble the human being - which names things - come about?

I suppose that God or the universal consciousness named them.

Again, the shrug, the turning on of Dancing With The Stars, and the beer. Must be great to know that magic makes everything happen.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster
If someone had posted a better option, I'd entertain it, but do you see anyone offering anything besides the tired old "the human consciousness creates reality"


Creating reality is an extrapolation.

However, the delayed erasure does prove unequivocally that consciousness changes the behavior of subatomic particles.

Going back to the original double slit experiment, measuring what slit the particle used collapsed the wave function. So some assumed that the act of measuring not the quality of knowing collapsed the wave function.

The delayed erasure proves that measuring alone does not collapse the wave function because measuring and deleting the information (after the process is complete) does not collapse the wave function.

Not only is the retroactive influence but its proves that consciousness is a factor because the existence of abstract information changed reality.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:06 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


The human being is no more than an imagined 'thing'.
Every 'thing' is no more than an image projected.
Projected images are no more than rainbows, mirages.
This 'thing' you call a body is a residual image, as is the mind and all other 'things'.

The 'thing' that sees, experiences all 'things' is not a 'thing'.
This 'no-thing' is consciousness.
When this 'no-thing' is present (which is always) 'things' appear.
'Things' can not appear without the presence of the 'not a thing'.
The 'not a thing' is consciousness.
Consciousness is the space in which all 'things' appear.

You are not a human being.
You are consciousness itself.
The body, the mind and all other 'things' appear because consciousness is present.
Everything that is seen is projected by consciousness and seen by consciousness.
Everything that is seen is a reflection of yourself (consciousness).



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:25 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


A particle or 'thing', is a piece of the whole.
Close your eyes and then open them, does the view come in pieces or does it appear whole?
Try not to use the words that you have acquired, just look at what is seen.
Now look at a 'thing', a chair, a monitor. Each 'thing' is only a separate 'thing' because you have put a border around it (frame) and now it can be given a name.
The universe is 'one', there are no parts.
The human thinks it is separate from the universe, so in turn separates (cuts) the world into 'things'.

When consciousness is not aware of itself it looks to the world of 'things' to complete itself.
It is driven to do this, this is why there is apparent suffering and confusion in the world, consciousness has forgotten itself.
Consciousness forgets on purpose, this is the game of life.
Consciousness looks at the world of objects hoping it can find some 'thing' that will complete itself.
Every 'thing' that is seen and experienced is pointing consciousness back to itself.
When consciousness becomes aware of itself it knows it is complete and has always been so.
It is home.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


The human being is no more than an imagined 'thing'.
Every 'thing' is no more than an image projected.
Projected images are no more than rainbows, mirages.
This 'thing' you call a body is a residual image, as is the mind and all other 'things'.


Actually, this 'thing' I call a body is an event. As a whole, it's a very complex event, consisting of an uncountable number of incremental events occurring within, and resulting in, that umbrella event. A word has been coined to describe each contributing identified whole that exists within a larger identified whole, and that word is holon. I'll be using this term to refer to each matrix event trajectory (those redundant event chains that we refer to as matter) and will refer to an incremental holon as IH and to an umbrella holon as UH.

In the case of the corporeal being, the UH is the entire body and brain. Of course, within that UH are many tiers of IHs (brain, organs, cells, atoms, particles), and each IH has its part to play within the UH as a whole. The management directives for these IH tiers is provided by the DNA that has physically defined the UH as an identified whole. The UH itself is involved in establishing and completing linear event trajectories that deal with the survival of the UH as a competing whole. These trajectories are not redundant, and require the UH to produce a specific form of information on its own, for its own immediate use.

The UH includes an IH called the brain, and its sole function is to configure data that is streaming in with stored residual data to create unique data bursts that will provide UH-level management efforts (actual linear event trajectories - event/information hybrids) and give the UH a "leg up" on competing UHs that either do not possess brains or that possess lesser brains with weaker functionality. This development of the data configuring IH was a survival necessity for those UH wholes that became too sophisticated to survive as a UH without dedicated DNA directives implementation at the UH level in a more dynamic and holistic manner.



The 'thing' that sees, experiences all 'things' is not a 'thing'.
This 'no-thing' is consciousness.
When this 'no-thing' is present (which is always) 'things' appear.
'Things' can not appear without the presence of the 'not a thing'.
The 'not a thing' is consciousness.
Consciousness is the space in which all 'things' appear.


Consciousness is the result of the human UH, and the epitome level of functionality its brain possesses. The data configuration event trajectory that it produces has achieved a level of self-awareness as part of its overall extreme level of survival sophistication. While it can observe its own generation, this linear information/event trajectory can't be viewed as primordial - even though it probably would like to view itself in that manner. That said, the extreme capacity that this trajectory possesses does allow it to continue to exist as a true conscious and aware holon even after the UH and its generating IH have long since ceased as functional event wholes. After all, information - once brought into existence due to an event, or even as an event itself - is eternal.


You are not a human being.
You are consciousness itself.
The body, the mind and all other 'things' appear because consciousness is present.
Everything that is seen is projected by consciousness and seen by consciousness.
Everything that is seen is a reflection of yourself (consciousness).


The true human being is the information/event trajectory itself. The corporeal UH is (in net effect) the placenta tool of the human being, and the span of viability of that corporeal UH is the 2nd stage of gestation for the true human being. Traditional wisdom has decided to call this eternal human being its own spirit or soul, but in truth, until the corporeal UH finally falls down for good and begins to feed the survival needs of much more primitive UH wholes, the human being does not truly exist as an identified independent whole.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by NorEaster
If someone had posted a better option, I'd entertain it, but do you see anyone offering anything besides the tired old "the human consciousness creates reality"


Creating reality is an extrapolation.

However, the delayed erasure does prove unequivocally that consciousness changes the behavior of subatomic particles.

Going back to the original double slit experiment, measuring what slit the particle used collapsed the wave function. So some assumed that the act of measuring not the quality of knowing collapsed the wave function.

The delayed erasure proves that measuring alone does not collapse the wave function because measuring and deleting the information (after the process is complete) does not collapse the wave function.

Not only is the retroactive influence but its proves that consciousness is a factor because the existence of abstract information changed reality.


The influence of human consciousness is relatively weak if the layers of contextual ramification are substantial. This is due to the fact that the influence of the contextual environment itself will always supercede the influence of what is confined within it. That said, in the "Quantum world" there are many more avenues of potential for linear event trajectories, and a carefully projected conscious intent will obviously have more influence, as opposed to the same intent's influence when pitted against layers and layers of well-established contextual predeterminations.

So, while I am, and already have, allowed for the influence of the researchers' expectations, I can't agree that any such allowance opens the door to declaring the human consciousness to be determinant within the whole of reality. As with everything else, there are degrees of consequence when dealing with reality, and the popular interpretation of these experiements don't seem to acknowledge the grays that are inherent within all instances of dynamic interaction.
edit on 5/5/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


This moment which is eternal is the event.
We are surfing the event, on the crest of the wave.
This body is a very small aspect of the whole event which is happening now.
The body appears within the event, not separate to the event.
The event is seen and experienced.
Unless this event is experienced it is non existant.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


There is no 'human' consciousness. There is consciousness, full stop.
In this now moment, there is no other time, no past, no future, just now.
This 'now' is consciousness.

If we take a photo of the wave it is taken now, this now makes particles appear.
If we don't take a photo of the 'wave', it was never a 'now', it stays as a wave. No particle appears.
Now and you appear presently. You can not appear any other time.
In fact time does not exist.
Only 'this' appears to exist.
edit on 5-5-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


A particle or 'thing', is a piece of the whole.
Close your eyes and then open them, does the view come in pieces or does it appear whole?
Try not to use the words that you have acquired, just look at what is seen.
Now look at a 'thing', a chair, a monitor. Each 'thing' is only a separate 'thing' because you have put a border around it (frame) and now it can be given a name.
The universe is 'one', there are no parts.
The human thinks it is separate from the universe, so in turn separates (cuts) the world into 'things'.

When consciousness is not aware of itself it looks to the world of 'things' to complete itself.
It is driven to do this, this is why there is apparent suffering and confusion in the world, consciousness has forgotten itself.
Consciousness forgets on purpose, this is the game of life.
Consciousness looks at the world of objects hoping it can find some 'thing' that will complete itself.
Every 'thing' that is seen and experienced is pointing consciousness back to itself.
When consciousness becomes aware of itself it knows it is complete and has always been so.
It is home.


This is ideology. This thread is not about ideology. It's about what can be logically extrapolated from layers of definitive indication. Each consciousness holon exists with its own agenda and point of perspective. I would never attempt to describe the perception of everyone or even of anyone other than myself. You can if you wish, but I couldn't let this post go without comment. Just in case any reader might assume that a lack of challenge indicates my agreement with it. I absolutely disagree with this fundamental premise.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


There is no 'human' consciousness. There is consciousness, full stop.
In this now moment, there is no other time, no past, no future, just now.
This 'now' is consciousness.

If we take a photo of the wave it is taken now, this now makes particles appear.
If we don't take a photo of the 'wave', it was never a 'now', it stays as a wave. No particle appears.
Now and you appear presently. You can not appear any other time.
In fact time does not exist.
Only 'this' appears to exist.
edit on 5-5-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


I disagree, and I agree to disagree with you on this. I know that there are many who agree with you, and I'm not troubled by that fact. I know that my conscious awareness exists, and that I exist as a conscious whole relative to all else that exists around me. I also know that "now" is placed within an ongoing linear event trajectory that consists of all other event trajectories (both linear and redundant), and that it is replaced by the next now at the Unit Rate of Change (URC) that determines what is included as part of the contextual environment that we refer to as reality.

I know what I know, and if it clashes with what you know, then so be it. Neither of us will be punished for what we believe that we know.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster
So, while I am, and already have, allowed for the influence of the researchers' expectations, I can't agree that any such allowance opens the door to declaring the human consciousness to be determinant within the whole of reality.


Well it clearly isn't the only factor.

But it is significant that the existence of abstract information can retroactively influence the results of an experiment.

The key is to comprehend the connection between abstract information and raw consciousness.



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