the KIDNEY PUNCH - a fun look at a brutal weapon

I saw an awful video today of two women beating another women in a McDonald's. They were relentless and the poor victim was definitely not a fighter; she ended up in a really non-functional mental state and probable seisure by the end of it, the two assailants would have just kept going and going if not for some helpful onlookers.
(Here's the video (it's a bit traumatic so I didn't embed it, and I don't really recommend watching it):
Baltimore McDonalds fight )

I am very much NON-violent but also realize there may be times we need to protect ourselves. I've had some training in Aikido and would always opt to defend or not fight but I questioned myself what I would do in this situation of wishing to possibly save a victims life.

One obvious option is the kidney punch because the person you're wishing to strike already has their back to you and is not paying attention so your move could quickly disable one of the attackers.

NOTE: I do not have first hand experience with this. It was a casual thought that I think holds merit given the situation. Please share if this move doesn't work, takes practice, precision, if you agree, etc.


You can't really use a kidney punch if you're punching too high:



or if you're too low:



you gotta wait until you can punch in just the right area:



Maxim Kidney Punch question

1. Contact.
When something strikes the kidney—notes Ladan Golestaneh, M.D., of Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx, N.Y.—you can expect massive amounts of pain from your flank to your upper abdomen, plus potential “nausea, vomiting, fainting.” got it?

a kidney punch can cause long term serious damade so don't practice on your friends!

I'm having a heck of time finding out exactly WHY a kidney punch is so bad - but I do know it's bad...

probably not THIS bad...



but it's bad!!


Here's where the kidneys are located:




So... trying to stop someone, disable them for a bit?....




When it's time... you can use a regular punch, any blunt object, even a foot or knee!




Here's a couple crazy guys showing the kidney punch in action (spoof):


Hope you don't need to use the ol' kidney punch and get to stay out of trouble, but always good to know.
Love to hear some stories too - first hand accounts

You'll make em piss blood too!
Well golly gee!

An elbow to the back of the head is better IMO, because with a kidney or liver punch you need good punching technique, power and precision. An elbow to the back of the head is a KO guaranteed.

Also if you are going to attack someone from behind you can grab him around the waist and knee him in the tail bone or just a double leg from behind followed by soccer kicks to the head.

Or a kick to the balls.

Kidney punch? Pffft!

Good swift punting kick to the jewels will make them drop quicker, and they are much easier to hit for some reason...

Pred...

Kidney punches hurt like hell. Those are the ones the cops like to use when you are handcuffed, a good solid shot to the kidneys will make you pass out from the pain.

Personally I like to lead with a punch to the throat, followed up with a good old fashioned soccer kick to the funbag.

That little two piece will make a man wish he had never been born

WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!
there was cheer leaders,funnyness, telly tubbies and good ideas
what about the double kidney punch and push them into a wall then keep kidney punching them
or the choke and kidney punch
cool thread man s n f

I wouldn't suggest this unless you are in a life, death situation... Keep in mind the following... 1 if you've never fought before you will not know your strength and won't know how to accurately gauge how hard to hit and hit too hard then cause VERY serious damages...

When hitting someone in the kidney the resulting impact can cause some of the veins around the kidney to be damaged and/or other damage to the kidney that can modify the normal blood flow and/or multiple other types of damaged or cumulative damages can cause acute renal failure... In such event the kidney's stop elimination the toxins that would normally be thrown out of your body and they start building up and will end up in your blood stream poisoning you and you can die of this fairly quick enough if not diagnostic quick enough. Kidney may not recover and the target you just wanted to disable temporary may end up having to be plugged on a hemodialysis machine for several hours a week for the rest of their days...

Further more... missing the target can cause you to hit the spinal cord and if hit hard enough depending on the posture of the target and where your hitting and a couple other factors you can cause mild to severe damages to the spinal nerves and THIS IS NOT anything you want to be responsible of...

Please don't post stuff like this if you don't know what kind of damages it can cause that not being very responsible at all... If someone would read your thread and decide to pull a prank on a friend you can f*** him up good... That's not something to be messed with...

There's multiple other spots you can hit to down someone effectively and that won't cause long/short terms health issues. And I don't suggest to browse the internet to learn them, then again you'll end up learning stuff from someone that read this somewhere and that doesn't know you can potentially kill someone... Get Muay Thai classes if you really want to learn how to mess someone up bad... and get BJJ classes if you want to be able to stop 1 opponent quickly effectively and you'll never throw a punch/kick you'll be able to get around with a lot of stuff if the guy brings you in court afterward...

Then again THIS SHOULD ONLY be used for self-defense and nothing more!

Originally posted by iamtheman
An elbow to the back of the head is better IMO, because with a kidney or liver punch you need good punching technique, power and precision. An elbow to the back of the head is a KO guaranteed.

Also if you are going to attack someone from behind you can grab him around the waist and knee him in the tail bone or just a double leg from behind followed by soccer kicks to the head.

Or a kick to the balls.

Good old Muay Thai effective and reckless!

reply to post by _R4t_


Yes massa
Only because you said so massa
I'm kidding. I'm not trying to piss in your cherios.
Good info I agree with the prank thing. It's a serious strike.

reply to post by Thermo Klein


Unless you are starting the fight this is not realy much use. When defending yourself I find what is required is the maximum possible damage in the shortest possible of time, In a street fight you will almost always be out numbered so you cant risk getting tangled up or taken to the ground.

The Kidney's as you can see are at the back, if you where being attacked chances of you hitting them without any kind of skill to set it up are pretty much zero, and even then if your not trained in striking any hit will most likely be nothing more than a minor annoyance.

The best targets are the eyes & throat, a single well place hit can easily take down or "disable" most people regardless of size or skill, the main focus should be on disabling your opponent enough so you can escape to safety.

Other good targets include the knees and the ankles again your attacker cannot chase you if he cant walk or run.

Basically the kidney punch is only a small part, even then I would only use this if I got tied up, perhaps in a head lock, then you would use this to wear down or injure your attacker, but in an actual fight this serves little purpose unless you realy know what your doing, in which case a punch to the kidneys is "kiddy" stuff.

There are various techniques out there, one method I find very usefull and quite devestating is SCAR, this also covers weapons etc, however the hand to hand combat side of it is basically a combination of "best bits" from various martial arts, it is used by navy seals and emphasizes the maximum damage in the shortest time, Krav maga is also pretty effective as is the russian "Systema" which IMO is probably one of the most brutal fighting styles on the planet. All 3 very simple styles, none of them require olympian type fitness, all made for killing not sport and that makes all the difference!

Kidney what again?
I never made it past the cheerleaders.


Honestly, if you are behind someone there is no reason to punch them at all.
It should be fairly easy to control someone from behind by grabbing the throat with one arm and their hand behind their back with your other.

reply to post by _R4t_


If two people are dragging you through a McDonald's by your hair and kicking you in the head, I hope somebody ignores all of your advice. Sorry, but if you watch the video, that is an attack that easily could have ended fatally. That video clearly shows a situation where the victim would have been justified in using lethal force.

When you are fighting for your very survival all of what you wrote goes out of the window. If you are trying to protect someone that is in a potentially fatal attack your civil liability goes down quickly. The survival of the innocent out weighs the survival of the predators.

That video showcases precisely why I carry a concealed handgun. I would not endure an attack like that.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by _R4t_

 

If two people are dragging you through a McDonald's by your hair and kicking you in the head, I hope somebody ignores all of your advice. Sorry, but if you watch the video, that is an attack that easily could have ended fatally. That video clear shows a situation where the victim would have been justified in using lethal force.

When you are fighting for your very survival all of what you wrote goes out of the window. If you are trying to protect someone that is in a potentially fatal attack your civil liability goes down quickly. The survival of the innocent out weighs the survival of the predators.

That video showcases precisely why I carry a concealed handgun. I would not endure an attack like that.

A punch in the throat not hard enough to cause windpipe perforation but just enough would of down both the b****** and left her gasping for air in a matter of seconds and wouldn't cause as much long terms damages as messing with the vital organs... The day you go mess with someone and in the matter of a blink of and eye he punch you in the throat and you hit the ground gasping for air and panicking like nothing you've seen before because you think your chocking to death... you tell me if you'll feel like getting up and messing when them again... There's no justification of lethal force in this video... If the morons watching and enjoying the show and the idiot that couldn't do nothing but film and hurry home to upload to youtube would of stood up and done something none of that s*** would have happen...

Had you been there judging by your answer the only outcome would of been one or possibly two death and then you would of end up in jail with a 6'4 black dude affectionately called Tiny... and trust me son.. there ain't nothing tiny about them when they call them Tiny... Then where's your "concealed weapon" then??? Wait till Tiny whip out his "concealed weapon" and show you where he's about to "conceal" it...

That's great advises for the guy that has a family and end up in jail because he wouldn't learn how to properly defend himself or his family and how to apply proper force for the circumstances... Just shoot them in the head and go to jail and leave your family paying the bills and #... Hell his son can always get fatherly advise once a month during the visits...

Son: Hey Daddy... I'm going to prom daddy and you know....

Daddy: Ohhh really wait I'll show you how to make a shiv with a razor blade and a toothbrush and how to hide it in ur rear end so you can defend yourself in case someone mess with you... Hell you might even come live with Daddy!

Dear sir, I admire your claims you sure bring great things to this world, just like that camera man...

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Kidney what again?
I never made it past the cheerleaders.

Honestly, if you are behind someone there is no reason to punch them at all.
It should be fairly easy to control someone from behind by grabbing the throat with one arm and their hand behind their back with your other.

I know... I had to stop at the cheerleaders too

reply to post by _R4t_


Actually I do know how to defend myself. I label myself a "street fighter." However, I trained for years with guys that were highly skilled in multiple forms of martial arts. I know what a shot to the throat will do. I also know that a punch to the throat is likely to slide or other wise impact at less than 100%.

I have been in real world confrontations as a civilian and while working security. I understand the real dynamic of what happens when the shtf. Martial arts are great, but if you start thinking, "I can't hit them there because it might get me in trouble," you very well could end up broken in unfixable ways. That isn't to say you should use excessive force. You should never use more than is necessary or legally accepted.

However, in this situation the women was being attacked by multiple persons. She was being kicked in the head and ribs repeatedly. The perps kept coming back to attack her over and over again, and they were attempting to drag her out of the building. As a person that has studied the laws in my area (and has sought advice directly from the police officers I work with) I feel very confident in saying that lehal force would be justified.

They were attempting to cause great serious bodily injury. They kept returning to attack despite intervention. Then they attempted to drag her from the location. At that point the victim would be justified in saying they feared death and reacted with lethal force. In most cases where the victim is taken from the initial scene of attack they are killed. That is a very simple fact. It is also why people (including cops) teaching self defense tell you never to go with your attacker.

Your advice shows a complete lack of knowledge regarding the laws surrounding self defense. It also shows that you complete lack of real world experience with the lethality of hand to hand combat. In my experiences I have seen a person that was killed by a kick to the ribs. It wasn't a fast death either. It was a slow death from punctured internal organs. It took the ambulance and police ten minutes to get there. By the time they arrived the victims lungs had filled with blood. They drowned in their own blood. However, the attacker didn't know the person was expiring. So they crushed the victims orbital socket, nose, and teeth causing severe damage and pain before they passed.

I've known of people to be killed by a single punch when they fell and hit there head. Hand to hand combat is brutal, and permenant damage can happen in a heart beat. You do what you must to survive. If that means a punch to the kidney then so be it. If it means using mace or a taser, do it. If you are in fear for your life because two people are beating you and dragging you out of a building to an unknown fate, do not go quietly.

Do not use excessive force, but do not capitulate to fear or you may never live to tell the tale.

ETA:
Let me clear up something that may not have been clear in my original post. I would not have used a gun to intervene in this incident. The women were obviously scared off by the presence of the male worker. In that case as an intervening person I would have first attempted to use my presence and "soft hands" to control the situation.

My originl post was from the view of the woman on the floor. She did have the right to use force up to and including lethal force. I know some people will never except that, but in the state where I live, and many parts of America, it is the truth.

As for controlling a person from behind with a choke and chicken wing, it works one on one. In a situation with two attackers it leaves you little or no dfense against the second attacker. In other words, an effective strike is the only answer sometimes.

ETA Again:
I do agree with you on two points.

Every one should seek some form of self defense training. If they do not have the time in their schedule to master Akido or Muay Thai they should attend a "self defense" class at the bare minimum. Knowing hos to respond before the situation gets physical is critical. Knowing how to stop a physical situation quickly is equally critical.

Posting information about self defense with out knowing the possible legal or physical consequences is a bad idea. You can be jepordizing someone's life in many ways.

I do not believe the original poster was advocating using a kidney punch in any but the most dire circumstances though. So, that does not apply here in my opinion.

Here is my question on such a situation. As a guy, guys usually cannot hit a girl, am I correct? However, what can a guy do when he sees two or three girls beating the life out of another girl? Is it ok to come in with a dropkick or a swift kick to the ribs and take em down one by one, or try to do it non-violently by pulling them apart, but risking unecessary injury to yourself if they turn on you? I know the social consequences of hitting a girl, but then, how the hell can you stop such an attack?

If it was me there, I would have come up behind the first one with a swift kick to the ribs, grab the second by the hair and a knee to the face, then have others hold them down for the police. I wouldnt be able to just stand idly by and watch a person get put in a hospital, social consequences be dammed.

reply to post by GenRadek


You start off with presence and verbal commands. Get between the two women and the victim (if possible). Issue a demand for them to leave. If they come back you can attempt to restrain them. If they continue physically attacking you and the person you have the right to return with force in kind.

The best thing to do is check your state laws on the use of force. Seek out the "use of force continuim" for private citizens in your jurisdiction.

Wow I would not want to get into a fight with a fellow ATSer. I mean beat me up fair. Don't just kick me in the junk or kidney punch me jeez. It reminds me of that king of the hill episode where Bobby takes a womens self defense class then goes around kicking all his bullies and Hank in the groin. Not cool



Trowa

Great information! Thanks for all the personal stories and views - really opened up my eyes to some things.

Love the King of the Hill ref too

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by _R4t_

 

Actually I do know how to defend myself. I label myself a "street fighter." However, I trained for years with guys that were highly skilled in multiple forms of martial arts. I know what a shot to the throat will do. I also know that a punch to the throat is likely to slide or other wise impact at less than 100%.

I'm sorry I find the "street fighter" comment laughable no disrespect but in any martial art/boxing/grappling type of community there is, go call yourself a "street fighter" and you'll have people rolling themselves on the ground laughing at you... then they'll tell you to hit the sega genesis again cuz its not your place... As for the throat punch that slides well unless you fight people that have a thing for rubbing themselves with vaseline I don't know how you can't lend a good counter with a jab or direct in the throat without having 100% accuracy even if you can't deliver it 100% effectively.. even at 30% the sharp pain and breathing problem will give you enough time to run to mcdonald have a bigmac and comeback finish him with a hook later...

I have been in real world confrontations as a civilian and while working security. I understand the real dynamic of what happens when the shtf. Martial arts are great, but if you start thinking, "I can't hit them there because it might get me in trouble," you very well could end up broken in unfixable ways. That isn't to say you should use excessive force. You should never use more than is necessary or legally accepted.

Fighting is 90% mental and 10% physical... its not about rushing with your head down throwing haymakers its about being on your guards and forcing the opponent to open his guard so you can land a downer... Had you have any real fighting experience you'd know that in such event your in defensive position and while you don't have to attack you have plenty of time to think... Look at MMA why do you think GSP is THAT good... because he mastermind ALL of his opponents... MMA is not THAT for from a real fight... beside a couple of vicious things not permitted and that once you get on top of your opponent and he stop defending himself the fight is yours the basics are still the same... here's a good example of a "street fighter" Mr. Kimbo Slice... he beated the crap out of everyone in the street but got his a** handed over to him by a newbie... WHY??? because he just ran in swinging and hoping to land one without thinking...

Run into someone that knows how to fight just "reacting" and you'll realize soon enough he'll figure you out and fake throw a jab than hit you in the teeth with a right or walk in your defenses to finish you with a uppercut because if you just "react" you'll also just "react" to the misdirections he'll throw at you essencially making you do what he wants so he can land you one thats going to shut ur lights...

However, in this situation the women was being attacked by multiple persons. She was being kicked in the head and ribs repeatedly. The perps kept coming back to attack her over and over again, and they were attempting to drag her out of the building. As a person that has studied the laws in my area (and has sought advice directly from the police officers I work with) I feel very confident in saying that lehal force would be justified.

I'm in Canada so the laws are different but my best friend's a RCMP and his dad's a lawyer so I get pretty good backup... unless your not alone in a dark corner with them and/or they are not armed you don't really justify lethal force very well here...

They were attempting to cause great serious bodily injury. They kept returning to attack despite intervention. Then they attempted to drag her from the location. At that point the victim would be justified in saying they feared death and reacted with lethal force. In most cases where the victim is taken from the initial scene of attack they are killed. That is a very simple fact. It is also why people (including cops) teaching self defense tell you never to go with your attacker.

See above's response...

Your advice shows a complete lack of knowledge regarding the laws surrounding self defense. It also shows that you complete lack of real world experience with the lethality of hand to hand combat. In my experiences I have seen a person that was killed by a kick to the ribs. It wasn't a fast death either. It was a slow death from punctured internal organs. It took the ambulance and police ten minutes to get there. By the time they arrived the victims lungs had filled with blood. They drowned in their own blood. However, the attacker didn't know the person was expiring. So they crushed the victims orbital socket, nose, and teeth causing severe damage and pain before they passed.

Regarding the laws they differ from one country to another... As for my lack of real world fighting

Yeah you sure seem to have acquired lots of experience throwing haymakers in "the streets"...

I've known of people to be killed by a single punch when they fell and hit there head. Hand to hand combat is brutal, and permenant damage can happen in a heart beat. You do what you must to survive. If that means a punch to the kidney then so be it. If it means using mace or a taser, do it. If you are in fear for your life because two people are beating you and dragging you out of a building to an unknown fate, do not go quietly.

No sh!t.....

Every one should seek some form of self defense training. If they do not have the time in their schedule to master Akido or Muay Thai they should attend a "self defense" class at the bare minimum. Knowing hos to respond before the situation gets physical is critical. Knowing how to stop a physical situation quickly is equally critical.

The only thing aikido is do for in such situation is NOTHING... its worthless... aikido teachs you to defend yourself from specific attacks... what if the dude throws a fkin barstool at you... how'd you aikido ur way out of that... Anything that use "point" system or derived of martial arts based on defense won't bring you far... go for the real stuff krav maga, pradal serrey, bokator, muay thai, sambo... those aren't martial arts... they are arts of war... they weren't designed to break bones... and break legs... if you have two attackers first thing to go for is the legs you'll slow them down and if you can't stand up... you can't fight...