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S.Friedman vs History channel

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posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 11:43 PM
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If you seen a show on UFOs you have probably seen Stanton Friedman



I've been a great admirer of Stanton Friedman for many years. The guy is so "down to earth" if you'll pardon the pun...lol

Someone once asked Stanton how he could believe in the existence of UFOs having never seen one himself, and he replied:

"I've never seen Tokyo either, but I know that it exists..."

Heres a letter he wrote to the History channel after the program Roswell: Secrets Revealed aired in 1999. I wanted to know what people thoughts on this letter and also your opinion on Stanton Friedman himself.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open Challenge To The History Channel
By Stanton Friedman


December 21, 1999

History Channel
235 East 45th St.
New York, NY l0017

Subject: December 13, 1999 program Roswell: Secrets Revealed

Dear History Channel:

As the nuclear physicist who began the civilian investigation of the Roswell Incident back in the 1970s, who has co-authored a book "Crash at Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident" and numerous papers about Roswell, and, of course, was the first to talk to many of the key witnesses (almost all of whom you somehow missed), I naturally viewed the subject program with great interest, especially since I was in Roswell on December 13... I must congratulate you on providing a Masterpiece of Misrepresentation. A splendid example of propaganda, excellent for teaching purposes. You demonstrated the primary rules such as selective choice of data, false reasoning, positive and negative name calling. You also demonstrated the 4 basic rules of UFO debunkery:

What the public doesn't know, we are not going to tell them.


Don't bother us with the facts, our minds are made up.


If we can't attack the data, we will attack the people; it is much easier.


Do one's research by proclamation, rather than investigation. It is much easier and most people won't know the difference.


I have discussed the two Air Force reports in my enclosed papers "The Roswell Incident, the USAF, and the NY Times" (28 pages) and my Review of "The Roswell Report: Case Closed." You seem to have blindly accepted any comment from a noisy negativist and didn't bother with the work of professionals such as myself. Let me give some specific examples, although I found that I can't get a copy of the show for 4-6 weeks to give precise quotes.

A. How do you dare to show a small heap of wreckage? In my first conversation with Major Jesse Marcel, the Intelligence Officer for the 509th Composite Bomb Group, in 1978, he described wreckage strewn out over an area 3/4 of a mile long. The Roswell Daily Record cover-up article of July 9, 1947, stated the wreckage covered an area 200 yards in diameter. Your depiction was at most a few yards across. If that is all there had been, rancher Mack Brazel would have taken it all in his truck to the Sheriff's office and there would have been no reason for Major Marcel and Captain Cavitt to have followed him on the long rough journey back to the Foster Ranch operated by Mack. You have blindly accepted a fairly recent statement by Cavitt to Colonel Weaver about him recalling it was just a balloon covering an area only 20' square and easily fitting in one vehicle. Apparently Cavitt wasn't told it was supposed to be a MOGUL balloon which included 23 standard helium filled neoprene balloons (at 20' intervals) and a whole bunch of radar reflectors, sonobuoys, ballast tanks, etc all strung together. Some small pile. Of course Cavitt hadn't remembered that simple fact when asked many times by many people for the previous fifteen years, even denying that he had been on the base at the time.

B. Dr. C.B. Moore, whom I have met, himself strongly claimed that neoprene out in the sun for weeks would be totally degraded. Did he forget that little detail? A June 4 or June 14 launching could not possibly have survived so well until early July. You also neglected to mention that many of the July 8 newspaper articles claimed the wreckage was found "last week." But Rancher Brazel had been in the area just a few days earlier and could never have left that mountain of garbage where the sheep could ingest it. Mack had of course previously found two balloons. The newspaper of July 9 quotes him saying he was sure what he found wasn't any weather balloon.

Colonel Weaver left this quote out of his recital of the article.

C. Too bad you couldn't mention that the 509th was the most elite military group in the world with hand picked officers and men, and high security. They had dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the two tested in the Pacific in July, 1946, in Operation Crossroads. You noted the July 9, 1947, press release and then stated nobody knows why it was issued. Why didn't you bother to ask Walter Haut who issued it? He still lives in Roswell and has been interviewed hundreds of times. His story hasn't changed since I first spoke to him more than twenty years ago. Incidentally he also had been a bombardier on thirty raids over Japan and dropped the instrument package over one of the Crossroads tests. He issued the press release because he was ordered to do so by Colonel William Blanchard, Commander of the 509th and of Roswell Army Air Field. Before suggesting he must have been incompetent, as have some who haven't done their homework, I should add he was a member of the West Point All Star class of 1938, became a four-star general by the time he was 48 and was Vice Chief of Staff of the USAF when he died of a massive heart attack at the Pentagon in 1966. There was ,of course, a lengthy obituary in the NY times. Doesn't sound much like he was thought to be incompetent, does it?

It was stated that Blanchard retracted the press release four hours later. This is nonsense. Blanchard's boss, General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth, Texas, (Blanchard was in Roswell) issued a new story after being informed by hisChief of Staff, Colonel Thomas J. DuBose that Ramey's boss, General Clements McMullen, had given orders to cover up the story. I heard that first hand from retired General DuBose whose testimony is available on film. He was a West Pointer as well and had 18,000 hours as a pilot and set up the USAF Search and Rescue command. No slouch at all.

D. Why do you show only the Roswell Daily Record? After all there were front page headline stories in the Chicago Daily News, the Sacramento Bee, the Los Angeles Herald Express, the Spokane Chronicle, etc all evening papers for July 8. The West coast papers in general had done a lot of checking before publishing detailed articles. Too bad you did none.

E. Where did the comment come from about bodies cold to touch?

F. The notion that Pilot Kittinger was the red haired officer is more absurdity. After all he wasn't at the Roswell hospital until 1959. I was the first to hear two independent stories about a nasty red haired officer and a black Sergeant. Both events taking place in 1947. Has the air force invented time travel? There is no other way to get crash test dummies, all of whom were the height and weight of pilots, back to 1947 from 1953 at the earliest or to get Kittinger to the Roswell hospital in 1947. This is flat out fiction.

G. Why did you not talk to others still alive who had first hand involvement such as Jesse A. Marcel Jr., a medical doctor, who handled wreckage, has served on military aircraft accident investigative teams and was a pilot? Or Loretta Proctor, neighbor of Mack Brazel, who handled wreckage? or Mack Brazel's son Bill who found strange (thin strong memory material) wreckage out in the pasture? How about the sheriff's two daughters? All this testimony has been readily available for many years.

H. One of the first things Major Jesse Marcel told me is that there was nothing conventional to be found on the debris field. No wires, no vacuum tubes, no rivets. He was very familiar with aircraft and aircraft wreckage and balloons and radar reflectors and rockets. The notion that he wouldn't have recognized balloon wreckage or radar reflectors is frankly absurd. You are also implying that Blanchard, who had also served in the Pacific, would have ordered the press release and the B-29 flight with the wreckage brought back from the ranch and Marcel to Fort Worth is equally absurd, if all there was was totally conventional stuff. You know of any materials such as the I-beam like pieces with strange symbols that couldn't be cut, burned, or broken? Or memory metals that were like foil but couldn't be cut and, when folded over and over, would unfold on their own? Why couldn't the USAF find any of that toy maker tape in the pictures taken in Ramey's office?

I. Brazel didn't make his discovery on July 5th. It was earlier. He did go to the store-pool hall in Corona on the 5th which is when, not having electricity or a phone or a radio, he first heard about all the saucer sightings and a reward and was told he ought to go to the Sheriff in Roswell which he did on the 6th -- NOT on the 7th as you claimed. You made it sound as though Sheriff Wilcox looked in the phone book to find a nearby Air Base. There was a standing arrangement that anything that might effect the military would be reported to Roswell Army Air Field. There was no other base in the area.

J. I have met with Dr. Schirmer, Dr. Moore, Mr. Gildenberg. They haven't investigated the case. They have made proclamation after proclamation about second and third hand testimony. Why use the term "conspiracy theorist" so many times without ever justifying it? Who are these theorists? I began the investigation and have always provided evidence for the claims that I make which is more than can be said for your trio. They have actually created a conspiracy theory namely that a bunch of stupid UFO researchers and lying witnesses have created a fantastic story for fun and profit. This, of course, ignores the fact that loads of testimony was obtained by us serious researchers long before the cameras started rolling. My phone bills used to run several hundred dollars a month.

By the way, I do know something about security having worked as a nuclear physicist on a wide variety of highly classified advanced nuclear and space system programs for such companies as General Electric, General Motors, Westinghouse, TRW Systems, McDonnell Douglas, and Aerojet General Nucleonics. I have also been to nineteen different government document archives.

Just how much experience with security has Dr. Schirmer had?

K. What was this nonsense about a 1956 plane crash somehow confusing Glenn Dennis about bodies at the base in 1947? A few years ago I went with Glenn to the Ballard funeral home. We reviewed records with full permission of the operator there who obviously respected Glenn. There were a number of military plane crashes for which he handled the bodies even after bad fires. That was his job. No possible way such a crash could have confused him. Yet another false conspiracy theory from your trio.

L. At one point early on in the program the word UFO was used. Sorry. It was not used until after 1951. Several times when showing balloons and talking about Mogul you showed tear drop shaped polyethylene balloons. Round standard Neoprene balloons were used for all MOGUL launches before July -- the same kind that Mack had retrieved. And that rapidly disintegrate in the sun.

In summary then, the History Channel has presented myth and propaganda in the guise of truth.

You have supplied misrepresentation instead of investigative journalism. You should be ashamed and should apologize to your audience. It seems to me you have also violated FCC rules with regard to fairness, honesty, and accuracy in so doing. My colleagues and I would be happy to debate your trio of amateurs any time. I would suggest that they do their homework first.

Cordially,
Stanton T. Friedman

Enclosures.



RR

posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 11:53 PM
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Some of us think he's a disinfo agent, others think he's "a good guy" who just wants to get the word out and still others believe everything he says just because he shows up every time UFOs are mentioned. I guess it just comes down to the individual to make up their own mind on the guy.

I don't take him as seriously as some others do here but to each his own because until the mothership lands on the Whitehouse lawn we are all just speculating anyway, no matter what credentials we may or may not have.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 11:57 PM
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I never knew some people considered him a disinfo agent thats very intersting.Why do some people think that? Although I do not follow everthing he says blindly I do agree with him on alot of things. I love when hes talking about the papers about UFOs he got from the goverment , the ones in the picture I posted. Something like over 75% of them are blackout. He was like yeah there not hiding anything


[edit on 29-7-2004 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 12:20 AM
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I never knew some people considered him a disinfo agent thats very intersting.Why do some people think that?

William Cooper claimed he is.. check out this link:
www.abovetopsecret.com...


"William Moore, Jaimie Shandera, and Stanton Friedman are either witting (with knowledge) or unwitting (being used without knowledge) agents of the secret government. I prefer to believe that they are unwitting although William Moore's reported us of a Defense Investigation Service ID card and his reported self confession to Lee Graham that he was an agent of the government makes me seriously doubt it, if the reports are true. Lee Graham called me at my home, and when asked, he confirmed that Moore had indeed done this.
...
In the documents which I saw between 1970 and 1973 names of individuals were listed who were to be targeted for recruitment in order that the contingency plan known as MAJESTIC TWELVE could be introduced to the public by persons known and respected by the public. Bruce Macabee, Stanton Friedman, and William Moore were among those listed. I do not know that the subsequent events do not seem to indicate the Bruce Macabee is involved but the actions of Stanton Friedman and William Moore are highly suspect."



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 12:43 AM
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Read Mac Brazels account of what he found. He said he found sticks, paper and tape that took up the size of a dinning room table. Mmm I knew ET had a reputation as a shorty, never knew they were that small. Also his description of the debri field is nowhere on the grand scale that the legend implies.
www.af.mil...
Look at the original newspaper article of the time where Brazil says he stored the flying disk in his shed....
..in his SHED

....further related that Brazel thought that the material:

"..might have been as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that is how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which night have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellers of any kind. Although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No string or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used. Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these...."



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 01:26 AM
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Read Mac Brazels account of what he found. He said he found sticks, paper and tape that took up the size of a dinning room table.

The final word from the Air Force offical website? HAHA
The interview given after his illegal military detainment has been debunked as it completely differed from all his previously related accounts of the incident.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon"


home.netcom.com...

www.roswellinvestigator.com...

www.a51mod.com...

www.think-aboutit.com...



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by MindWarrior


Read Mac Brazels account of what he found. He said he found sticks, paper and tape that took up the size of a dinning room table.

The final word from the Air Force offical website? HAHA
The interview given after his illegal military detainment has been debunked as it completely differed from all his previously related accounts of the incident


Was that from the Air force report Roswell case closed? I think that holds not very much credibility especially if it was a report taken from Brazel after he was detained by the military. He was most likely threatened with loss of life or of the life of his family if he really saw a crashed disk and the goverment wanted to cover it up.



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 09:11 AM
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Seeing as how I have a copy of the old newspaper, I'll have to check it out...but I certainly don't recall anything about him storing it in his shed...maybe some pieces.... I'll let you know tomorrow most likely, after I reread it...


As for Stan, I think he's been fed some disinfo in the past, but I don't believe he is a "witting" participant...



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok

As for Stan, I think he's been fed some disinfo in the past, but I don't believe he is a "witting" participant...


Yet another evil facet to disinformation, You could use someone who is really trying to help find the truth and feed him this disinfo and not only will it hurt the topic its self but it can also hurt the persons credibility who was tricked into thinking it was real. It really helps kill two birds with one stone for the people that want to spread disinfo.


Disinfo is a true enemy of the truth



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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stanton friedmans book top secret / majic is great you guys should read it.



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 12:54 AM
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"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon"


He was right, it wasn't a weather balloon.....but balloons were involved.
Those funny symbols on the tape....Korean. If the Air Force came out and said that they found a spacecraft from another world, would you believe them? But look how many people have tried to fool you with their UFO hoaxes , lies and fakery....yet you still go on believing. What about that so called "top secret" memo from the FBI? www.users.cihost.com...
Read the description of the 'spacecraft' ...'the disk was hexagonal in shape and was suspended from a balloon by a cable" It's easy to scoff at the mogul theory by getting fixated with the balloon. The mis-ID was in part because of what dangled from the balloon train. Hey I wanna believe in ET flying saucers as much as the next person...I just can't fall for the bulls$%t...sorry, there are just too many loopholes in the classic ET fell from the sky story. BTW, who debunked the USAF record search? Scientists or writers with a vested economic interest in keeping the legend rolling? Stanton might say that he hasn't seen Tokyo, but he knows it there....but there is overwhelming evidence that tokyo exists whereas not one shred of credible hard physical evidence has surfaced (and withstood critical examination) that backs up the Roswell legend.

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Zero Point]



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 04:50 AM
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I just can't fall for the bulls$%t

Ironic considering the sources you've attained your information from. The fact of the matter is you don't know what happened. Neither do I. All we can do is judge the information available and the testimony of those involved. I'd prefer to place my trust in individuals, not organizations with ulterior motives; particualarly when that organization is a government organization. As anyone who isn't completely brainwashed realizes, the government organizations (and their spokespersons) never tell the whole truth. Try reading the body langauges of people... it tells alot.



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 07:08 AM
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As anyone who isn't completely brainwashed realizes, the government organizations (and their spokespersons) never tell the whole truth.

Thats true enough....yet government organisations are'nt the only ones who tell lies eh. Plenty of those from the 1947 'event' who were interviewed, by ufologists spoke of how their testomonies were exagerated, fabricated and taken out of context. Oh how times have changed, remember when it was those who believed in the ETH were ridiculed? Now it seems those who don't believe the Roswell ETH are the ones who become ridiculed. Whats that old saying?.....'people want to believe in the lie.' And when those who don't believe the lie say so the old hoary chestnut mantra goes something like:


The fact of the matter is you don't know what happened. Neither do I.

People brainwash themselves man....oh BTW, there is evidence to suggest that the military were themselves the ones that seeded the UFO cover story....you know the one....UFO's aren't being covered up...they are the cover-up. It's the classic double blind. Make a release that a UFO crashed, then retract the statement, insuring forever more that people believe that a UFO crashed. After all was it not the press officer on base that broke the story?
'The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at Roswell Army Air Force Base announced at noon today that the field has come into possession of a flying saucer"
Hows does that sit with your 'can't believe a word that government organisations tell you' theory?


[edit on 30-7-2004 by Zero Point]

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Zero Point]



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 07:45 AM
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If the Air Force came out and said that they found a spacecraft from another world, would you believe them?


That's just it... They DID! (Of course, the Air Force didn't exist at the time, they were still part of the Army). The crashed disc story was released by the base's own press officer.

As for the balloon, Mogul disk, etc., here's the deal. Are you going to tell me that the senior intelligence officer, of one of the world's most secure bases (i.e. the one housing the ONLY atomic bomber wing at the time) can't distinguish between an alien craft and a radar reflection disk?
How about the Air Force report claiming the dummies (which were'nt involved in Mogul) explain the reports of alien bodies? (even though these dummies weren't used until YEARS after the Roswell crash)

Nope, don't buy it... I know when smoke is being blown up my ass, and when reading their report, I felt like a frickin' chimney!


The biggest indicators of Roswell being more than a balloon, are really what happened afterwards...the breakout and establishment of the Air Force, the CIA, etc. Why so soon? Why all of a sudden? What major event happened to cause this restructuring of our entire defense network? Oh yeah, I forgot...someone crashed a balloon!



stanton friedmans book top secret / majic is great you guys should read it


Read it once (hell I've read just about all of these kinds of books once...), but I'll definitely have to check it out again, maybe even add it to the collection.

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 07:57 AM
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The biggest indicators of Roswell being more than a balloon, are really what happened afterwards...the breakout and establishment of the Air Force, the CIA, etc. Why so soon?

Well there were more than just a few secret dodgy enterprises afoot during that era eh
www.gpc.peachnet.edu...
www.alienresistance.org...
I'm not saying I go along with everything they say, but it makes the bug-eyed alien in a saucer story look tame by comparrison.
Find out the origins of the CIA and who taught them the art of the secret police.
Oh and Gazrok....next time I'm being sarcastic I'll include (sarc) after my comment...just 4 you
[edit on 30-7-2004 by Zero Point]


[edit on 30-7-2004 by Zero Point]



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 08:22 AM
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Find out the origins of the CIA and who taught them the art of the secret police.
Oh and Gazrok....next time I'm being sarcastic I'll include (sarc) after my comment...just 4 you


Actually, I'm quite well versed in that, seeing as how it was once a career choice, and I scored quite high on the entrance exam...
Of course we always had spies prior to that, (OSS and the frat boys) but I'm talking more about what required the agency to be created so fast (when no initial indicators were there). Look at the Dept of Homeland Security as a prime example. New departments, agencies, etc. are usually created from a crisis of some kind.

I'd appreciate the sarcasm heads up...especially for those mornings when the coffee is still brewing!
(sarc)



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 08:40 AM
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but I'm talking more about what required the agency to be created so fast (when no initial indicators were there).

ummm.....World domination? Like I live on the other side of the world from the USA, yet you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.....where as b4 WWII, you'd be hard pressed to tell us apart from England.
Geez, I wouldn't of thought the CIA would want the brainy ones
, to much of a risk to National security having a mind capable of free thought. I thought they would be more interested in thugs, theives and killers....hang on..thats the prison population.



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 09:17 AM
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Initially, the OSS was made up of frat boys (during WWII). Most of these gents were the ones tapped to head up the newly created CIA. In it's inception, they weren't the thugs they are today. The thugs were basically created during the Vietnam era. Before then, it was mostly keen minds, and centered more on decoding, intercepting communications, etc. not later actions such as engineering coups, etc.

What I mean by indicators, is this. All of the indicators you mentioned existed well before July 1947. They existed for years. So, something had to happen, to galvanize both the creation of the CIA, and the breakout of the Air Force from the Army. Both of these actions, so soon after July 1947, seem to indicate that something big happened, that involved both the intelligence community, and the Army Air Forces of the time...and Roswell fits this to a T....



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 09:24 AM
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So, something had to happen, to galvanize both the creation of the CIA, and the breakout of the Air Force from the Army. Both of these actions, so soon after July 1947,

... August 29,
1949: First successful test of a Soviet atomic bomb. ...



posted on Jul, 30 2004 @ 09:29 AM
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Unfortunately, BOTH were created in July of 1947, through Truman's Security Act...


[edit on 30-7-2004 by Gazrok]



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