The Quran and Brotherly Love is Clear to Me

The Quran is a judgment against the unbeliever. This is what is claimed according to the Quran itself.

My simple question is this? If you do not love your brother, who is the unbeliever?

Jesus is the prophet to the Muslim religion. The 'US' and 'WE' in the Quran is likely all the prophets together in one voice. He (They) say(s) this:

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]” 28

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

Can you love God and not your brother? Again, who is the unbeliever? Can you wage war against God in the name of God. If you kill your brother, you are waring against God. Who is the unbeliever in this picture? If you beat your wife, harm your children or reduce the dignity of your loved ones by forcing them to cover their beauty, who is the unbeliever? The unbeliever is the one who does not love his Brother. Issac and Ishmael are brothers.

The Quran and the Bible are both the holy books of the the Muslim religion. They are both inspired in their true message of what happens to the unbeliever. If you do not love your brother, you are not a believer in Love. God is love at rest. Peace.

Let me explain what I just said. The Muslim's who are waring against their brother Israel are not believers in Love. It is that simple. God is love and you cannot kill your brother and be the image of God's love. The Quran is the document that condemns the unbeliever. If the shoe fits, you will wear it. By unbeliever, I am not referring to a belief in Christ. This is your personal faith. If you harm your brother, you are condemned within the pages of the Quran. Issac (Israel) is the brother to Ishmael (Arabs). God has drawn the line and they will destroy themselves in their unbelief. God is their father. They both say that God is their father.

Where do Christians fit into this picture? We are believers if we love God and love our brother. Jesus even goes one further and calls him your neighbor. In this case, it is literally your neighbor. As a Christian myself, I have a hard time understanding this. I would never kill anyone for any reason. I am the witness in this life and not the judge. God is the judge and the only righteous one who can dispense judgment.

Again, I ask, Who is the unbeliever? I would like to hear form those of the Muslim faith. Please explain to me how this paradox can be. Am I wrong in my perspective? Isn't Israel your brother? Was Christ here to remind you of this important fact? Are they your neighbor in the land of God? Do you consider me an unbeliever, even thought I follow Christ and love God with my whole heart, mind, spirit and strength? I even value my brother with every step. Do you consider me an unbeliever?

I consider you my brother. I love you enough to remind you.


1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

1 John 4:20
[ Obedience by Faith ] If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

RUMI - Islamic Sufi

If you find fault in your brother or sister, the
fault you see in them is within yourself. The true
Sufi is like a mirror where you see your own
image, for “The believer is a mirror of their fellow
believers.” Get rid of those faults in yourself,
because what bothers you in them bothers you in
yourself.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Woa Woa, dude.

1) We don't believe that God is a "father".

A father, by definition, is a physical entity which sires. 112:4 in the Qur'an means -Nothing begets from God and God is not begotten- This negates the idea of God being a father. In addition, since a father is a physical entity, by necessity, a father needs space to exist. This is because whatever is physical needs space to exist; God doesn't need anything including space, and, hence, isn't physical.

2) An unbeliever is defined as one who does not believe in the Testification of Faith which is "No one deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

3) When Muslims say "brothers", or "sisters", we they are referring to other Muslims (who don't have to be their actual immediate family). In other words, I could say that a random person from Indonesia is my brother or sister, because they are Muslim.

4) We don't believe that God is "love". Love is an emotion of need, a need to please the beloved, a need to be accepted, and a being with needs is not God, but a being flawed by needs. Surely having no needs is greater than having needs.

Israel are not our "friends". The atrocities they are committing in present day speak for themselves.

Really, so picking and choosing which propoganda to post from their political book is proof?
Can't we just have a muzzie apologist forum so that the propoganda spouted here in favor of the "religion" of peace can be spouted bacck and forth with out the forum being slimed by its mere being here?

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Woa Woa, dude.

1) We don't believe that God is a "father".

A father, by definition, is a physical entity which sires. 112:4 in the Qur'an means -Nothing begets from God and God is not begotten- This negates the idea of God being a father. In addition, since a father is a physical entity, by necessity, a father needs space to exist. This is because whatever is physical needs space to exist; God doesn't need anything including space, and, hence, isn't physical.

2) An unbeliever is defined as one who does not believe in the Testification of Faith which is "No one deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

3) When Muslims say "brothers", or "sisters", we they are referring to other Muslims (who don't have to be their actual immediate family). In other words, I could say that a random person from Indonesia is my brother or sister, because they are Muslim.

4) We don't believe that God is "love". Love is an emotion of need, a need to please the beloved, a need to be accepted, and a being with needs is not God, but a being flawed by needs. Surely having no needs is greater than having needs.

Israel are not our "friends". The atrocities they are committing in present day speak for themselves.

edit on 26-4-2011 by Reprobation because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-4-2011 by Reprobation because: (no reason given)

Whoaaa, if you're mulim or islam you only love your own religion? Well when Jesus said to love one another as a brother or sister, he meant regardless of who you are. This just proves to me why Jesus way is the best way.

reply to post by australian2011


Jesus taught the correct belief in God - not some blatant anthropomorphic belief. Or some belief that God is in the skies or Heavens or on a throne. The bible says that God walked in Heaven and was searching for Adam and Eve but couldn't find them (Genesis 3:8), and that "the Lord awakened as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine" (Psalms 78:65). Not to mention that Christians say that we're all the children of God or, as is said, "the father"..a "father" is by necessity a body..Psalm 18:8-10 attributes "nostrils" to God and says "And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."

So, basically, christians believe in some physical peripatetic entity. Muslims don't believe this. The Creator existed before Heaven and all creations, places and spaces, including light and darkness. After the Creator created everything, The Creator didn't materialize (The Creator is Perfect and change is inapplicable to the Creator). As the Creator existed without a place before places existed, The Creator still exists without a place.

Logically speaking, change/transformation is either an attribute of perfection or imperfection. The person won't claim the latter (for that entails the thing to be a creation), if they claim that it is an attribute of perfection, then they are claiming that The Creator was previously inferior, which is absurd and contradictory to there stance of The Creator being Perfect. The Creator still exists without a place after creating everything. Allah is above occupying a place.

We worship The Creator who is Perfect, Beginning-less, Immutable (clear of/above changing), Everlasting, All-Powerful, and unable to be imagined. Muslims don't worship something they imagine in there minds, nor something which is made with there hands.

A Muslim Scholar once said "Whatever you imagine in your mind, Allah is different from that". The imagination is related to those things that are perceived by the senses. The Creator cannot be compared to what we see in the creations—consequently, a picture of The Creator cannot be formed by the mind. Furthermore, the person who worships an image in his mind is in reality no different from the idol worshiper. The idolater worships a shape he has formed with his hands, and the one who worships a mental image, worships a shape he has formed in his mind.

Muslims believe that The Creator is not an image nor has an image—but that The Creator created all images and is not similar to any created thing. The Creator existed before there was space; The Creator is Eternal; The Creator does not change. That being the case, common sense tells us that the Creator is not an object, is not a form, and cannot be portrayed by a picture or an image. Furthermore, we know that God is Beginning-less. The Creator created both light and darkness. Our imaginations cannot come to conceive of something existing and there was no light or darkness—yet, we know The Creator existed before the creations and neither light nor darkness existed. The Creator was before the creations and there was nothing else. This indicates that The Creator is completely beyond our imagination.

reply to post by adifferentbreed


As the motto of this site goes "Deny Ignorance", clearly of which you are afflicted with, and, hence, I shall administer it - the correct term is "Muslims" and not "Muzzies".

Actually, the english letter "s" is the equivalent of the arabic letter "seen". So, yeah, though millions of Americans pronounce it as "Muzlim", when there's clearly an "s" in it and Muslims pronounce it with the "s"...they still pronounce it as they do...I'm, so-to-speak, fighting ignorance one person at a time.

I am wanting to learn. I will value every word said here. I did a quick search for father in the Quran and this is all I could find. Point taken on the father idea. But, does the Torah call God the father? How does this line up with the Quran?

2:200
And when you have completed your rites, remember Allah like your [previous] remembrance of your fathers or with [much] greater remembrance. And among the people is he who says, "Our Lord, give us in this world," and he will have in the Hereafter no share.

The Quran also says Jesus is a messenger and prophet. I've read the Quran. I have it highlighted in my copy.

Jesus didn't say brother. He said neighbor. I said brother because your neighbor is your brother. Jesus was very specific to turn the other cheek and give instead of take. Taking life is taking. It's stealing something that belongs to God alone. He is the judge and the giver of life.

Israel is literally your brother Isaac. They do not believe in any other God except the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Muhammad also claimed. The word God is used many times in my copy of the Quran. It also uses Allah. They seem to be interchangeable. How can you say that your brother is your enemy?

Do you consider me a believer?

I follow the message of faith, Hope and Love that Christ brought to us. I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with my whole heart. I love my neighbor. Rumi is my favorite enlightened sage. Am I a believer in my testification of faith? Am I your brother?

You say

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Woa Woa, dude.

1) We don't believe that God is a "father".

A father, by definition, is a physical entity which sires. 112:4 in the Qur'an means This negates the idea of God being a father. In addition, since a father is a physical entity, by necessity, a father needs space to exist. This is because whatever is physical needs space to exist; God doesn't need anything including space, and, hence, isn't physical.

2) An unbeliever is defined as one who does not believe in the Testification of Faith which is "No one deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

3) When Muslims say "brothers", or "sisters", we they are referring to other Muslims (who don't have to be their actual immediate family). In other words, I could say that a random person from Indonesia is my brother or sister, because they are Muslim.

4) We don't believe that God is "love". Love is an emotion of need, a need to please the beloved, a need to be accepted, and a being with needs is not God, but a being flawed by needs. Surely having no needs is greater than having needs.

Israel are not our "friends". The atrocities they are committing in present day speak for themselves.

edit on 26-4-2011 by Reprobation because: (no reason given)

I just want to point out that you didn't read the post. You might want to go back and get the idea in the post first. This is a questioning of the Muslim faith on their violence against their brother Isaac. If you don't like God, leave this thread and find something you like to read. I'll read what you write, but make sure you know what you are speaking about first. Be specific. What book are you talking about? You didn't say. Give some context to your beliefs and then be done. Speak to the subject and don't step on the object. We can get along. We are all neighbors in this world. There's room for all of us equally.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
Really, so picking and choosing which propoganda to post from their political book is proof?
Can't we just have a muzzie apologist forum so that the propoganda spouted here in favor of the "religion" of peace can be spouted bacck and forth with out the forum being slimed by its mere being here?

reply to post by SuperiorEd


It is good that you are wanting to learn

Okey dokey, I don't think you read my previous post. Excuse me if it seems like it's in a rude tone, but Jews and Christians don't have the correct belief in God. This is what we believe. And, again, please look at my last post

That being the case, one can't be a Muslim unless believing correctly in God and the Prophet Muhammad.

For example, if someone just all of a sudden called a stone "Allah" and said that a tree was the Prophet Muhammad, they wouldn't be considered Muslim.

I applaud your studiousness -no sarcasm intended-

I'll agree with you in many things you just said. God is described in Hebrews 11 in the Christian Bible.

"1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

I want to clear this up because you seem to say that we are idolaters. God is all possibility at rest. This is Alpha and Omega, all that there is or was or every shall be.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning (TIME) God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER).

He did this from what was not visible. LIGHT is not visible. If you look at the ocean, you see the surface and waves. The same with light. God can only be seen under the surface. He is not visible except to the mind of the believer.

You say that "Jesus taught the correct belief in God." I agree with this. Jesus was all altruism, turning the other cheek and love for your neighbor. Your brother Isaac is also your brother, which makes him you neighbor by proximity twice. He also lives near the Arab world. If you are not Arab, then both Isaac and Ishmael are both your neighbors as Jesus states. Jesus clearly stated that if you do not Love your God and neighbor, you are not a believer.

Christians believe in Christ's message of faith, hope and love. We love God. We love our neighbors. We serve others with equality, even when we would rather embrace bias and hatred.

Rumi, the Islamic Sufi - He will speak each time I do.

It astonishes me how some people say, “How
do saints and lovers of God find love in the eternal world beyond form, space and time? How can
they gain strength and help? How are they affected by things without body or shape?”
Is not all life, night and day, engaged with these
very things? One person loves another person and
derives help through that love. They find care and
grace, kindness and knowledge, happiness and
sorrow. All these belong to that formless world.

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by australian2011

 

Jesus taught the correct belief in God - not some blatant anthropomorphic belief. Or some belief that God is in the skies or Heavens or on a throne. The bible says that God walked in Heaven and was searching for Adam and Eve but couldn't find them (Genesis 3:8), and that "the Lord awakened as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine" (Psalms 78:65). Not to mention that Christians say that we're all the children of God or, as is said, "the father"..a "father" is by necessity a body..Psalm 18:8-10 attributes "nostrils" to God and says "And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."

So, basically, christians believe in some physical peripatetic entity. Muslims don't believe this. The Creator existed before Heaven and all creations, places and spaces, including light and darkness. After the Creator created everything, The Creator didn't materialize (The Creator is Perfect and change is inapplicable to the Creator). As the Creator existed without a place before places existed, The Creator still exists without a place.

Logically speaking, change/transformation is either an attribute of perfection or imperfection. The person won't claim the latter (for that entails the thing to be a creation), if they claim that it is an attribute of perfection, then they are claiming that The Creator was previously inferior, which is absurd and contradictory to there stance of The Creator being Perfect. The Creator still exists without a place after creating everything. Allah is above occupying a place.

We worship The Creator who is Perfect, Beginning-less, Immutable (clear of/above changing), Everlasting, All-Powerful, and unable to be imagined. Muslims don't worship something they imagine in there minds, nor something which is made with there hands.

A Muslim Scholar once said "Whatever you imagine in your mind, Allah is different from that". The imagination is related to those things that are perceived by the senses. The Creator cannot be compared to what we see in the creations—consequently, a picture of The Creator cannot be formed by the mind. Furthermore, the person who worships an image in his mind is in reality no different from the idol worshiper. The idolater worships a shape he has formed with his hands, and the one who worships a mental image, worships a shape he has formed in his mind.

Muslims believe that The Creator is not an image nor has an image—but that The Creator created all images and is not similar to any created thing. The Creator existed before there was space; The Creator is Eternal; The Creator does not change. That being the case, common sense tells us that the Creator is not an object, is not a form, and cannot be portrayed by a picture or an image. Furthermore, we know that God is Beginning-less. The Creator created both light and darkness. Our imaginations cannot come to conceive of something existing and there was no light or darkness—yet, we know The Creator existed before the creations and neither light nor darkness existed. The Creator was before the creations and there was nothing else. This indicates that The Creator is completely beyond our imagination.

I thought a Muslim could not believe in a man. I am sure you just slipped there. Christians do not believe in a man either for salvation. We believe on a name, just as you seem to suggest. The name of a person in the Torah always stood for the lesson their life represented in material form. Jesus represented Love of God and Love of your neighbor. Loving the brother is assumed, especially with the Arrab world, Issac and Ishmael, who are family. Family was the strongest bond God gave to man.

Am I a believer? It's a simple question. According to the Quran, you are obligated to teach me or kill me. We are here to answer the fundamental questions of the Muslim faith. We must define the unbeliever according to what the books and all the prophets say. Muhammad said that Jesus was a messenger.

2:87
"We revealed Books to Moses, and We sent after him messengers in succession; and We granted Jesus son of Mary evident miracles and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Whenever a messenger came to you with a message contrary to your whims, did you not grow arrogant, calling some liars and killing others? They said, "Our hearts are shrouded." Rather, God cursed them for their unbelief"

Clearly, Muhammad is telling the Muslim to believe in Jesus message. I agree with you. But, Jesus, the messenger of God, said that you are an unbeliever if you do not love your neighbor. Would you kill yourself? Doubtful, it hurts. This is why we are to do no harm to others. We are the witnesses in this life. God is the judge. The Quran is judgment of the unbeliever.

This is all defined.

Am I an unbeliever?

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

It is good that you are wanting to learn

Okey dokey, I don't think you read my previous post. Excuse me if it seems like it's in a rude tone, but Jews and Christians don't have the correct belief in God. This is what we believe. And, again, please look at my last post

That being the case, one can't be a Muslim unless believing correctly in God and the Prophet Muhammad.

For example, if someone just all of a sudden called a stone "Allah" and said that a tree was the Prophet Muhammad, they wouldn't be considered Muslim.

I applaud your studiousness

-no sarcasm intended-

reply to post by SuperiorEd



The verses I quoted say otherwise. They reference physical actions and such. Such as, it says, God was "walking in Heaven".

Here, Rumi reminds us all that the Heavens were made from the Love of God to man. The Heavens declare his glory. What is God's Glory? God's glory is Love. The universe is Love in another language according to Rumi. This is the point of belief. Love God. Love your neighbor because God created him in the image of the universe (love), which is God's language to man.

Rumi the Islamic Sufi


God declares, “If it weren’t for you, I would
never have created the heavens.” This is the same
as “I am God.” It means, “I created the heavens
for I love you as Myself.” This is “I am God” in
another language and another tongue.
Though the words of the great saints appear in
a hundred different forms, since God is one and
the Way is one, how can their words be different?
Though their teachings appear to contradict, their
meaning is one. Separation exists in their outward
form only; in inner purpose they all agree.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Teach or kill you?

I've encountered many christians in real life and many are stubborn and don't want to learn. I obviously didn't kill them. And nor have I ever heard of what you said.

You're not a believer. This is because of your belief in God, as mentioned earlier.

Did you quote a verse with a reference? I didn't see that.

Bible search turns up nothing. You must mean in Genesis, the Torah, where God walked in the garden. Didn't Muhammad say the Torah was revealed from WE, the messengers (Jesus included)?

2:4
... (the Quran and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) and in [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, ...

reply to post by Reprobation

You say I am an unbeliever but I testify that I believe in the God of mankind, the Torah, the Quaran and the God of Jesus. I believe God is one.

Please specify how I am a nonbeliever. I believe in this God (also Called Lord in the opening of the Quran and in the Bible):

Sura 16 - An-Nahl (MAKKA) : Verse 22
Your God is One God: as to those who believe not in the Hereafter, their hearts refuse to know, and they are arrogant.

Sura 114 - An-Nas (MAKKA) : Verse 3
The God of mankind,

Jesus brought Atonement to man. At-one-ment with the only true God. What's my problem here? What do I need to do. I also love my neighbor. I also believe in the hereafter as stated above.

This next Sura is clear on Jesus as a believer. He said to love your enemies and you are an unbeliever if you do not. Does the Muslim love the Hebrew and the Christian? The Hebrews follow the God of the Torah. The Christians follow the same God and believe in what Jesus said, thus the name Christian.

Please clear this up. I am willing to become a believer if you tell me how. Please assist me.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 157
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Īsā (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) A.S.

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Teach or kill you?

I've encountered many christians in real life and many are stubborn and don't want to learn. I obviously didn't kill them. And nor have I ever heard of what you said.

You're not a believer. This is because of your belief in God, as mentioned earlier.

I also have one more question that I need cleared up. Are the radical Muslims believers? The ones who are on the news each night. Iran says they want to wipe their brother Israel off the map. Is this justified? How do we explain the contradiction in actions?

I will gladly admit that Israel has been equally violent. No doubt. I will also admit that some calling themselves Christians do not show love to their neighbor. Throughout history, this has been clearly evident. The individual who displays this behavior is not a believer and never was as far as I can tell. The deserve to live and be loved. Justice comes from God and the courts.

But, what of those of the Muslim faith who kill in the name of God and hate the Jews? Are they nonbelievers?

Honesty is a quality of a believer. This is the second time you have provided a claim with no reference. Please provide a reference so I can be sure where to look. I have quoted to the letter and provided verses. The Rumi quotes come from the Islamic Discourses of Rumi.

We both have Google I assume?

Originally posted by Reprobation
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

The verses I quoted say otherwise. They reference physical actions and such. Such as, it says, God was "walking in Heaven".

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I posted this earlier: The bible says that God walked in Heaven and was searching for Adam and Eve but couldn't find them (Genesis 3:8), and that "the Lord awakened as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine" (Psalms 78:65). Not to mention that Christians say that we're all the children of God or, as is said, "the father"..a "father" is by necessity a body..Psalm 18:8-10 attributes "nostrils" to God and says "And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Muslims don't believe that the present day bible is intact; rather that it has been changed, and this is evident with the anthropomorphic references found.