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The reason for the push on Electric Vehicles

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posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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So, I was thinking the other night after Obamas speech on the rising fuel cost and the use of alternative fuels IE.... electric cars. This is the reason for the push.

www.faqs.org...




posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 09:57 AM
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The electric car often gets bashed because it still uses fossil fuels through use of coal and gas power-plants. Before this continues in this thread - let me point out that the huge advantage that the electric car has is its raw efficiency. An internal combustion engine is around 20% efficient, whereas an electric car using electricity generated via fossil fuels is between 25% and 50% efficient depending on the power-station. In other words, for the same type of car, an electric car will result in a massive decrease in the amount of energy use and the resulting pollution. Furthermore, electric power is usually generated using domestic sources of energy such as coal, natural gas, nuclear (not domestic but the fuel is very cheap) and renewables that are overall, per unit of energy delivered cheaper than oil with greater energy security.

Hydrogen powered cars are at this stage, inferior to the electric car. This is because hydrogen is obtained through natural gas or through electrolysis of water. It is cheaper to simply burn the natural gas directly. Electrolysis needs electricity, but since the hydrogen powered car is 1/3rd as efficient as the electric powered car, three times the amount of electricity is needed for the same type of car. Hydrogen fuel cells are highly experimental at this stage, and cost over a hundred thousand dollars each and furthermore burning hydrogen in internal combustion engines is disastrously inefficient. The only way the hydrogen powered car can catch on, is if the hydrogen fuel cell gets massively cheaper, and unconventional ways of electrolysis are invented, all while the electric car doesn't get better.

Hydrogen powered economy is a dream that is unlikely to occur:

Once upon a time, some serious people used to believe that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs) might have a snowball’s chance in hell of being a practical and affordable climate strategy in our lifetime. Those very sincere people were used by some of the car companies and Bush Administration as part of a strategy to oppose or delay the introduction of more viable alternative fuel strategies, in particular electric cars — see, for instance, the movie “Who killed the electric car?”

That isn’t to say pure EVs were slam dunks as successful mass-market consumer vehicles, particularly with the technology of the 1980s and even 1990s. HFCVs, however, required multiple technological (and other) miracles to succeed and every plausible competitor, including EVs, to fail first (see “Hydrogen fuel cell cars are a dead end from a technological, practical, and climate perspective“ and “The car of the perpetual future” — The Economist agrees with Climate Progress on hydrogen“). That is but one reason the absurdly expensive infrastructure will never be built — nor has any independent group ever proposed a plausible scenario under which the infrastructure would be built. And that’s the fundamental hydrogen cars will not be practical or a cost-effective climate strategy in your lifetime.

climateprogress.org...



Criticisms of electric car rebuked:

To take his points in order:

1. Batteries will always be too heavy; materials are scarce and toxic. This sounds like a comment from before 2006. Batteries are improving steadily in “energy density” and cost — by 7-15% a year, with occasional faster leaps as technologies shift. Automaker and battery makers have concluded that the supposed “lithium shortage” doesn’t exist. Nickel-metal hydride and lithium batteries are approved for landfill (not toxic) and can be recycled. The battery and motor of an EV is not always heavier than the larger engine and gas tank while you benefit from up to four times greater efficiency of an electric motor over and internal combustion engine.

2. We’ll need a giant new infrastructure; charging takes too long; we’ll get overloads and blackouts unless we spend billions of dollars to upgrade the power grid. Plug-in hybrids need no new infrastructure. According to a study from the Pacific National Lab, today’s grid has capacity to recharge 84% of today’s cars if they all plugged at night. This applies to all-electric vehicles charging at night as well, which will be true for most vehicles used as families’ second cars. Price signals will disincentivize daytime charging on late summer afternoons when the grid is at capacity. And the Tesla Roadster’s high-power charger takes under four, not eight hours to recharge www.teslamotors.com... .

climateprogress.org...

(lots more information in the link)

Quiet simply, the reason the electric car is being invested in, is because electricity is the best alternative fuel out there. There will be some difficulties associated with greater use of the electric car, but there is little to indicate that these difficulties cannot be solved. The electric power grid will require upgrades, but grid infrastructure does not stagnate and never will stagnate either. The cost of fuel for an electric car is far lower than gasoline, the main problem is the capital cost for the batteries and recharge times, but both are getting better. It's not perfect solution and probably can't replace all gasoline powered cars, but it's far better than nothing.
edit on 24/4/11 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by Jetman44
 


More likely to be the fact they have a vein of lithium in afghanistan worth an estimated $1 trillion.
The USA have control of Afghanistan and its resources...they want to make some cold hard cash for their investment in the long going war over there.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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So the suggestion you make is that with the energy grid already antiquated and becoming more unreliable every day as the article suggests, that the additional load of electric cars will somehow push the grid over the breaking point? And that this, destroying the energy grid, is the covert conspiracy of the Obama administration? That's al I could squeeze from that article.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Jetman44
So, I was thinking the other night after Obamas speech on the rising fuel cost and the use of alternative fuels IE.... electric cars. This is the reason for the push.

www.faqs.org...


That was a good article but the spelling was like that of a 5th grader or maybe even worse.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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The reason behind the push for electric cars is greed. You see there has been technology to allow a self sustaining electric vehicle for over 100 years. The oil barons are now losing power because of the alliance between GE and the US federal government. The policies of the fed are making it harder and harder for people NOT to own an electric vehicle, even though they really don't want people to be more energy independent just based on the fact that technologies are tucked away by the patent office and powerful businesses.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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When cordless battery powered tools first came out they were a joke. Long charge times and fixed battery packs. Faster charging times helped but the real boost that put a cordless tool in almost every tool box was the removable quick change battery. Drop one out and pop another on a a blink of an eye and you are ready to go again. That is what the electric car needs to get it to move forward. A removable battery pack. It would not be as fast as changing a pack in your cordless drill but I am sure it could be made so it would not take any more time than a fill up does at a gas station. A 5 or 10 minute battery swap time would be OK. We may see this in 20 or 30 years .Just my thoughts on the matter.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:30 AM
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In my opinion:

Electric cars will have less complex parts that will need to be replaced less often. This is bad for the motor companies. Calculate the price difference between buying a car off the shelf or building it yourself with brand new spare parts - the price comparison is ridiculous. Car servicing and repairs are a large part of car companies profits.

Oil companies... There are not many opportunities for them to make a profit from electric cars.

I believe we are about 50 years behind in power technology, not by fault of the abundant amount of creative and intelligent engineers in this world - but by the powers that be.

Scarcity is key... Oil is a scarce resource and the less there is, the higher its value. Keep consumers using the fossil fuels until it runs out to ensure maximum profits.

What might seem like such a simple concept to my fellow ATSers... The average sleepwalkers wondering around in this world just don't get it.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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Electric vehicles are sooooooooo the way to go. You just cant beat the performance of an electric motor! Electric motor, and battery technology is increasing by leaps and bounds although not as rapidly as the transistor. Also, electric drive trains are reaching incredible heights of performance. I feel within the next four to six years the electric vehicle will be a major player in the automotive industry. The electric vehicle industry is looked at as a niche industry by the major players. A multi-billion dollar niche industry mind you. Im just waiting to see the Bill Gates of an electric vehicle technology present him/her self by bringing forth a new bench mark to the electric vehicle classification. Time to set the standard, and mass produce. Im tired of paying for gas! Geez! WHO FEELS ME OUT THERE? hummmmmm?

PS: I have dedicated the past 8 years of my life designing a primary power system to do away with the need to plug-in the vehicle for charging the battery, and succeded two years ago. Prototyping is to begin soon!

Star and Flag my friend!



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by fixer1967

Originally posted by Jetman44
So, I was thinking the other night after Obamas speech on the rising fuel cost and the use of alternative fuels IE.... electric cars. This is the reason for the push.

www.faqs.org...


That was a good article but the spelling was like that of a 5th grader or maybe even worse.


Optical Character Recognition (OCR). For some reason they can never seem to break the 95% barrier, even after adding A.I....



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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The push is based on patent licenses. Follow the money trail. Then see who the stockholders are. many recent patents relate to increases in efficiency that are needed to field real world electric cars.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:43 AM
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What we need is a way to make paint contain photovoltaic cells. Then you have solar powered cars that recharge themselves during the day eliminating much of the need to plug the car in for recharging.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by fixer1967
 




yes, on the bbc radio, i heard an interview with this guy who made a ton of money in software, games or what.


sorry it was a while ago, but he was talking that same idea.



all you had to do was change out the batt.

the gas stations can be added to or converted for the electric cars.

and the power drain can be controlled more efficiently if more centralized to the swap stations, i guess.

he's got it in the works.
i forget his name but maybe this will ring a bell for someone.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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I must be missing the electric car point of the article. All I saw was another reason to have a secondary form of electrical supply at the end users location. Smart grid = controlled electric supply = rolling blackouts = 1940.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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ok here is the interview,

very interesting idea.


Shai Agassi was a high-flying software executive until he felt a calling to do something more worthwhile with his life. So he set himself a challenge - how to keep private transport running in a world without oil. But can his pioneering electric car scheme succeed and what is motivating him to do it? He speaks to Mike Williams on The Interview.


www.bbc.co.uk...


give a listen.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by Survivalism
 


So the components of car batteries are unlimited resources then? If oil is scarce, what about everything needed to make electric cars?
Here is a fun article

When electric cars go into widespread production, it will be funny to see the future actions people that were protesting their "suppression".

I'm curious, will they go on to protest how third world workers are treated in harvesting the building blocks of batteries?

It just looks like a future Coltan-style debacle.

Rebels who control coltan as well as gold, silver and diamonds, use children to work in the mines, and in 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor found that the Congo's enforcement of its own child labor laws was "inadequate." More than two million children have died in mining-related accidents in the Congo in the past ten years.


But hey, it is always the fault of the oil companies, or the corporations... It is nothing to do with how people live their lives and what they buy...



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by C0bzz
 




Quiet simply, the reason the electric car is being invested in, is because electricity is the best alternative fuel out there.


How is electricity an "alternative fuel"?

Electricity doesn't grow on trees.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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The powers that be understand that there is an energy shift about to occur. We can no longer depend on fossil fuels to support our economy. It effects how much we pay for transportation, and goods or services. These are the costs which have increased because of "speculators" driving the price up. These price spikes occur when any oil rich country hiccups.
So what is our governments soultion??? They want to get in on the "ground floor" of this new energy movement to let us become dependant upon government electricity so they can be the ones controlling the prices, not some wall street speculators with ties to the sheiks and global oil giants. The U.S. needs some serious cash, in case nobody has noticed. We all have watched OPEC natons become FAT with cash from our need for their oil.
Lets keep the energy dollars here at home by creating jobs to improving infrastructure and making the huge payment of our energy budget to our own nation.



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
What we need is a way to make paint contain photovoltaic cells. Then you have solar powered cars that recharge themselves during the day eliminating much of the need to plug the car in for recharging.


Um while that would be all well and good you do realize even if that was doable it would only bring in a tiny fraction of the electricity needed to power a car, there just isn't enough surface area. It is impossible for such a system to ever power a car completely - even if you had 100% efficient paint - something not even remotely close to doable now.

The only thing holding back the widespread adoption of the electric car is the price of batteries, and to a smaller extent recharge time. The price is actually dropping around 8% a year. There are several experimental nanotech solutions that have the possibility of drastically improving battery technology efficiency and therefore, reducing weight and cost.

Incidentally battery technology is also the key to making the electricity grid unimportant. The ideal solution in my opinion is for every home and business is to get off the grid and produce power locally. But even utility scale mini grids would be a huge improvement. Batteries for energy storage, to handle different load levels are the key to this becoming a reality. This technology is getting a lot of attention as well as it is needed for wind farm and utility scale solar since neither produce power at a consistent rate, ie. sometimes there is no wind, sometimes it is cloudy, or dark out.

I have no doubt electric cars are the future. There is no shortage of people working on improving battery technology, and I have no doubt it will improve drastically over the next decade.


edit on 24-4-2011 by proximo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by C0bzz
 




Quiet simply, the reason the electric car is being invested in, is because electricity is the best alternative fuel out there.


How is electricity an "alternative fuel"?

Electricity doesn't grow on trees.


I know.

I discussed where it was created in my post. Read it. Massive reduction in fuel use through efficiency, the rest of the energy is obtained via sources that are simply better than oil. Like natural gas, coal, and increasingly renewables like solar and wind.
edit on 24/4/11 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



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