In defense of the Koch brothers

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Yes 14 years old. You are accusing a scared 14year jewish kid for being a Nazi sympathize merely because he posed as a christian godson of one to escape death. You are clearly clueless of the circumstances he and many other young jewish kids like him faced, and it's pathetic.

dude at 14 ii knew the differences between right and wrong and even if i hated someone i wouldnt sell them out for nothing.


what is pathetic is your defense of soros

*edit to add

had the koch brothers been 14 and helped the nazis i know for a fact you would be sitting here defending them

Some history on the Koch's

Ilse Koch was the Nazi’s specialist in making objects from human skin; was the only woman charged with war crimes; and along with her husband was in charge of one of the most horrific horror camps in Nazi Germany.

Koch Industries is the child of the violence of Buchenwald, widely regarded as one of wartime Germany’s most notorious “death camps”.

Information connecting Ilse and Koch Industries is hard to find but is a string of fragments, pieces of information that connects the American and German Kochs and this connection gives us a clear image of the sentiment behind the Tea Party and conservative American politics since the 1950s. Where is the connection between the German Koch’s and Fred Koch? Besides evidence the American Koch was related to Ilse’s family, Erich Koch (a high level Nazi official in charge of Prussia) invites Fred Koch to sell his oil in Nazi Germany when he is banned from doing business in the US. After the fall of Nazi Germany, Erich Koch and Fred expand the oil empire to the Soviet Union. Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes – Fred Koch returned to the US, became anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again.

[url]http://noliesradio.org/archives/30284" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">unknownjournal.wordpress.com...[/ur l]

Ilse Koch was the Nazi’s specialist in making objects from human skin; was the only woman charged with war crimes; and along with her husband was in charge of one of the most horrific horror camps in Nazi Germany.

Koch Industries is the child of the violence of Buchenwald, widely regarded as one of wartime Germany’s most notorious “death camps”.

Information connecting Ilse and Koch Industries is hard to find but is a string of fragments, pieces of information that connects the American and German Kochs and this connection gives us a clear image of the sentiment behind the Tea Party and conservative American politics since the 1950s. Where is the connection between the German Koch’s and Fred Koch? Besides evidence the American Koch was related to Ilse’s family, Erich Koch (a high level Nazi official in charge of Prussia) invites Fred Koch to sell his oil in Nazi Germany when he is banned from doing business in the US. After the fall of Nazi Germany, Erich Koch and Fred expand the oil empire to the Soviet Union. Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes – Fred Koch returned to the US, became anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again.

[url]http://noliesradio.org/archives/30284

www.seismologik.com...

unknownjournal.wordpress.com...

Ilse and her husband Karl were tried by the SS before the war ended, accused of corruption. Her husband Karl Otto Koch was tried and sentenced to death in Nazi Germany.

yeah ok

Originally posted by neo96
dude at 14 ii knew the differences between right and wrong

Of course you did. Is posing as a Nazi Collaborators godson to escape certain death wrong? Or is it really the only choice and the best one posed to a 14year old at the time? But you would have us demonize people like Soros because they did not come out and proudly proclaim themselves Jewish in the face of death. Right.

You know that alot of good German couples hid Jewish kids and posed them as German children to protect their lives. Was this wrong? What about those dutch boatsmen and women who posed as Nazi sympathizers while moving jewish masses to the safety of other countries? I know full well you are only keeping up this argument because it suits your partisan agenda, if that matters more to you, that's your deal.

had the koch brothers been 14 and helped the nazis i know for a fact you would be sitting here defending them

Tell me, was the Stalinist regime just as bad a the Nazi regime? I'd bet my bottom dollar that if I asked you this another day, you would agree with me with no hesitation. So it's a wonder why the Koch brothers, as adults mind you, had no issue using Soviet slave money to fund their industry. But you don't have an issue with this right? You do have an issue with a scared jewish 14year old hiding his identity to escape certain death.

You know I don't like the Catholic church very much, I don't like this new pope. That said, I have never once held his Nazi youth membership against him. He was young, he had no choice, it was compulsory for German kids at the time, his life was at risk, his and his family's, if he did not participate. Again it is pathetic, accusing Soros of what he did in the face of life and death, as a 14year old, and this merely posing as a Nazi's godson.

There is nothing worth defending these two pieces of slim that were caught red handed trying to buy their way into contracts and were caught red handed telling all 50,000 of their employees how to vote :

www.democracynow.org...

Is this was getting a job entails? Having your employer with the right to tell you how to vote and if you don't vote the way they want you can be fired? Whatever happened to job security and having your employer have absolutely no right or place to tell people who they can and cannot vote for?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


partisan agenda i dont give a ratts butt who gives to whoever

my problems is when people make one side out to be evil and the others are saviors.

dude if you have read anything about the kochs you know they hated the stalinist regime.

the fact remians the kochs are the perceived evil in this country and soros isnt

too many critics of the kochs and to few critics of soros

so i am exercising my voice on the subject matter

www.scrapbookpages.com...

Even though Ilse Koch had been acquitted in Morgen's court, the former inmates at Buchenwald were convinced that she had ordered prisoners to be killed, so that their tattooed skin could be made into lamp shades. When the American liberators arrived, they were told about the gory accessories in Frau Koch's home. A display table was set up and a film, directed by Billy Wilder, was made to document the atrocities in the camp.

The photograph below is a still shot from the film. It shows preserved pieces of tattooed skin laid out on a table, and a table lamp with a shade allegedly made from human skin.
.

The following quote is from this web site.

Sergeant Blowers told us some things about the Commandant of Buchenwald and his wife. We could see their house down the hill through the leafless trees from our seats on the front steps (of the barracks). Blowers painted a picture of truly despicable human beings. The wife, Ilse Koch, favored jodhpurs, boots, and a riding crop. He told us this story about her: Once, she ordered all of the Jewish prisoners in the camp stripped and lined up; she then marched down the rows of them, and, as she saw a tattoo she liked, she would touch that tattoo with her riding crop; the guards would take the man away immediately to the camp hospital where the doctors would remove the patch of skin with the tattoo, have it tanned, and patch it together with others to make lamp shades. There were three of those lamp shades--the history books say there were two, but there were three. One of them disappeared shortly after we arrived. This may give you a glimmer of an idea of what Ilse Koch was like--and her husband--and the camp "doctors."

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

partisan agenda i dont give a ratts butt who gives to whoever

my problems is when people make one side out to be evil and the others are saviors.

dude if you have read anything about the kochs you know they hated the stalinist regime.

the fact remians the kochs are the perceived evil in this country and soros isnt

too many critics of the kochs and to few critics of soros

so i am exercising my voice on the subject matter

edit on 24-4-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Reality is that both Koch Brothers ans Soros continue to remain as part of the problem.

Originally posted by neo96
my problems is when people make one side out to be evil and the others are saviors.

Who said Soros was a saviour? The first person to bring Soros to the center of the political debate for me was Glenn Beck, before that he was another billionaire lobbyist to me. But hey, make big assumptions will ya.

dude if you have read anything about the kochs you know they hated the stalinist regime.

But they have no problem using stalinist money right? And I am well aware of the Koch father coming back to the US in the 1950's during the height of the commie scare mind you, and his change of tune. He had no issue prior.

the fact remians the kochs are the perceived evil in this country and soros isnt

What are you talking about? You perceive Soros as evil as do many other rightwing voters, Glenn Beck has put Soros to the center of his hitlist and people like you have take this to heart. So you just disproved your own comment in this thread alone.

too many critics of the kochs and to few critics of soros

You want to start comparing the George Soros threads and the Koch threads? Do you really want to go down this road?

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Who said Soros was a saviour? The first person to bring Soros to the center of the political debate for me was Glenn Beck, before that he was another billionaire lobbyist to me. But hey, make big assumptions will ya.

well your sitting there defending soros and i have yet to see you say anything remotely nice about the kochs

But they have no problem using stalinist money right? And I am well aware of the Koch father coming back to the US in the 1950's during the height of the commie scare mind you, and his change of tune. He had no issue prior.

and you have no problems taking money off the backs of the chinese worker this day where do you think the majority of the money comes from in this country anymore.

What are you talking about? You perceive Soros as evil as do many other rightwing voters, Glenn Beck has put Soros to the center of his hitlist and people like you have take this to heart. So you just disproved your own comment in this thread alone.

another assumption because i have known who the koch brothers and soros were long before the msm picked up on them.

yeah feel free to link those i am sure you can find them but right along with that show how many people even bothered to read or post in those.

Originally posted by neo96

Of course I'm defending Soro's, just as I'm defending the catholic pope or anybody else who was put in an unfortunate situation during their youth. It is low to attack Soros over the fact he hid a jewish 14year old during the height of the Nazi regime, regardless of what anybody thinks of his politics.

you say anything remotely nice about the kochs

Why should I be nice to Koch's? They have a political agenda in my view.

and you have no problems taking money off the backs of the chinese worker this day where do you think the majority of the money comes from in this country anymore.

I don't take money from Chinese workers, the american government does as do american corporations, and they have been doing it for decades. The difference between me and you is that I don't support them in doing this. I've stated time and time again that I oppose businesses shifting jobs overseas, I am against the government lending money from foreign nations. You on the other hand, you have no problem with Koch using stalinist money to fund the tea parties. No issue at all, meanwhile you want to talk about communists on this forum.

another assumption because i have known who the koch brothers and soros were long before the msm picked up on them.

So when was the first time you made mention of Soros on this forum?

How's that Soviet money working out? It's funding the tea parties rather well. While folks are holding their socialismism signs up, Koch is throwing money, much of which can be traced back to his father's involved in the Soviet Union decades back. Oh the irony, and you'd have me focus on the fact Soros disguised himself to save his life at the age of 14. That is your preference here.

reply to post by Misoir

Let’s begin with the father Fred C. Koch, he was a member of the John Birch Society [1] because he felt compelled to fight Communism anywhere and everywhere in America after his time spent in the Soviet Union.

The John Birch Society? That assorted bunch of kooks, crazies and all-around propagandists that couldn't let McCarthyism die the sorry death that it should have had? Let's see some of Fred Koch's cohorts in the John Birch Society... we have Roy Cohn, McCarthy's hatchetman who made a career of providing legal representation to high ranking mafia officials... then there is Nelson Bunker Hunt, a board member of the International Association for the Advancement of Ethnology and Eugenics. Do you know what eugenics is? Oh, and we can't forget John K. Singlaub, a personal friend of the Contra rebels/terrorists of Nicaragua. Well, friend might be too true a word, but he was the head of the US chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, which has been described as a "collection of oriental fascists, militarists, rightwing terrorists who put bombs in civilian aircraft, death squads, assassins, criminals" - a small faction of which were the Contras. Cohn, Hunt, and Larry McDonald all also played a hand in giving aid to the Contras. Seeing a pattern with the John Birch Society here?

Fact is that Walker received only $43,000 from the Koch Brothers Ind.

Allow me to quote from a report by the Center for Media and Democracy:

Americans for Prosperity has actively supported and promoted Scott Walker in a variety of ways. It featured him at its tea party rally in Wisconsin in September 2009, when he was running for the Republican nomination for governor. Americans for Prosperity also ran millions of dollars in ads on a "spending crisis" (a crisis it did not run ads against when Republicans were spending the multi-billion dollar budget surplus into a multi-trillion dollar deficit), and it selected Wisconsin as one of the states for those ads in the months before the election. It also funded a "spending revolt" tour in Wisconsin last fall through its state "chapter."

And just who funds Americans for Prosperity? You know the answer.

Together Charles and David Koch’s net worth is $44 billion, the third largest fortune in the country behind Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. Yet we never hear them being criticized in the media for funding everything and why?

Hm, perhaps you don't remember when activists threw a pie in Bill Gates' face, or the anger in certain circles when Warren Buffet backed Bush's bail-out?

The Liberals never let up either, having a united front of the left pounding at them for funding and espousing ideals such as limited government, free-market capitalism, and libertarianism.

The same liberals who deregulated the airline industry (President Carter), signed free-trade agreements such as NAFTA into law (President Clinton), or has surrounded themselves with notable free-market capitalists such as Jason Furman, Austin Goolsbee, Timothy Geithner, or Alan Greenspan (President Obama)?

The Koch’s also founded the Koch Family Foundations [6] which is a charitable foundation which has given money to several think tanks:

Americans for Prosperity, Cato Institute, Mercatus Center, Institute for Humane Studies, Institute for Justice, Alex de Tocqueville Institution, Institute for Energy Research, Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment, Heritage Foundation, Manhattan Institute, George C. Marshall Institute, Reason Foundation, and the American Enterprise Institute.

Ah, the Cato Institute, which argues against government subsidies while lapping at the funding teet of subsidy-grubbing corporations such as Wal-Mart and Exxon Mobil... or the Manhattan Institute and the American Enterprise Group, an interlocking duo of think-tanks that have been a breeding ground for academic racists (Charles Murray) and neoconservative war-hawks (Richard Perle, William Kristol).

And since when are political think-tanks part of charity?

The Koch Family Foundations has also given charitable donations to science and arts organizations along with cancer research.

Does this same principle apply for George Soros, who pumps money into Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders, the International Crisis Group, Amnesty International, etc... (Disclaimer: I dislike George Soros as much as I dislike the Koch Brothers.)

did the left every mention that the Koch brothers each donated $10 million dollars to the ACLU to defeat the USA Patriot Act

Hey, good for them!

But tell me, how often has the right-wing media reported that the Koch Brothers are partnered with a Venezuelan state owned industry, or have utilized cap and trade, or just takes advantage of corporate welfare all the time.

Just some food for thought...

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I actually wasn't aware of the information you posted regarding Soros and the Kochs. I too had always just assumed they were a couple of billionaire lobbyists. I also was under the impression that Soros was basically just the "left-wing" version of the Koch brothers. However, after reading some of the evidence posted on ATS, and on other sites...I really don't think the two are comparable.

It has to do with one of the reasons you mention:
[A] The $18 million + in funding that towards the Tea Party (Source, Source) as well as millions more given to Tea Party candidates like Scot Walker, Paul LePage, Rick Scott, Rick Snyder, all of whom have either enacted or are enacting big-government authoritarian intrusive type laws (i.e. employee mandatory drug testing, financial marshal law, ban on unions, etc.) as well subverting the will of the people by repealing certain laws that were passed by a public vote (Source)...in addition to policies enacted by certain candidates that directly benefit Koch industries, such as "no-bid" sales and privitization of public assets. (Source)

[B] Evidence that the Kochs were instructing their employee as to who to vote for, as mentioned earlier by someone (Source). As well as a memo showing that the Koch funded group Freedom Works instructing Tea Party people to attend rallies and town halls, how to conduct themselves, and what questions to ask part of a strategy to get publicity for their ideological cause (Source)

[C]Lobbying done to congress in order to influence and write laws that directly benefit the company / oil industry. Koch industries has been responsible for hundreds of oil spills and other various pollution, they have been charged in court and found guilty of fraud, falsifying documents and breaking environmental law through extensive toxic waste dumping and pollution. They lobbied the government successfully including financial donations to politicians, and thus fines/jail time were either reduced or eliminate altogether.

Clinton went after them with another 97 charges of benzene release again, this time with a 350 million dollar fine and executives faced 35 years in prison. The laundry list read long on falsified documents, breaking environmental laws, dumping Benzene anywhere they chose to in their sense of entitlement. The final tab was only a 21 million dollar fine for what will be millions of dollars to clean up after the dirty Koch Brothers pollution and violations.

In the early part of the year 2000, there was a 97 count indictment of Koch Industries for illegally hiding, 91 tons of Benzene which is a known cancer causing chemical from its plant in Corpus Christi, Texas. The Koch Brothers hate the EPA and they hate the fact that they have to clean up their pollution even when it kills human life. Ex-President George Bush dropped all of 88 charges against the Koch Brothers – and through John Ashcroft the Attorney General at the time, the Koch Brothers were given a slap on the hand

Source

The Koch Brothers were also behind the near shut down of the US government to block the Clean Energy Bill and eliminate regulations requiring companies to pay for the cleanup when they pollute.Source
Then there is this:

The Koch brothers fought efforts to give the Commodity Futures Trading Commission more oversight over speculative trading, whereby companies can artificially inflate prices on things such as oil, during the Wall Street reform debate. One of the Koch companies—Koch Supply & Trading—takes part in oil and derivatives trading. We should point out that oil speculation has reached an all-time high at the same time gas prices continue to skyrocket.

Then look at a recent position pushed by Americans for Prosperity, the Tea Party-allied astroturf group founded and funded by David Koch (and whose sibling organization, the Americans for Prosperity Foundation, he chairs):

Similarly, Americans for Prosperity supports the House continuing resolution that cuts spending by $61 billion. Those cuts would reduce the budget for the CFTC by one-third. Make no mistake: Gutting the CFTC or limiting its authority would be a boon to Wall Street businesses that use complex financial instruments. But while the result is more profits for oil companies, it means everyone else pays more at the pump.

Source
The article then points out that the Kochs have donated $11 million to federal candidates in order to push for favorable laws and quash any legislation that could negatively effect their bottom line/profits. The Kochs were also behind "robo-call" efforts, that helped aid in the repealing of New Hampshire's participation in the "Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative", an environmental law that had succeeded in cutting greenhouse gas emissions and made improvements in efficiency.

The bill was aided by robocalls from the Koch-funded Americans for Prosperity group, which flooded the state with calls in support the bill.

(Source)
There's also the "Energy Tax Prevention" bill proposed by Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK), Rep. Ed Whitfield (R-KY), and House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI). The bill seeks to prevent the EPA from regulating greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to climate change.

The House Energy and Commerce Committee, under Republican control, is holding a hearing on Feb. 9, 2011 to discuss the bill, chaired by Whitfield, who has received $9,000 from Koch Industries since 2008. Koch operatives reportedly met with Rep. Upton on the first day of the 112th Congress to discuss such a bill. Upton received $20,000 from Koch employees in 2010, making them among his top 10 donors. Nine of the 12 new Republicans on the panel signed the Koch-funded Americans for Prosperity “No Climate Tax” pledge that opposed any government action to reduce carbon dioxide pollution

(Source)
There's many more examples in the article, but it sums everything up as such:

Contributions through Koch’s political action committee (PAC) are a matter of public record. Since the beginning of the 2006 election cycle, Koch’s PAC spent more on contributions to federal candidates than any other oil-and-gas sector PAC. For that period, Koch Industries and its executives spent $2.51 million compared to next three biggest contributors: Exxon ($1.71 million), Valero ($1.68 million), and Chevron ($1.22 million). Koch executives and their families can wield political influence on climate change by direct federal lobbying and campaign contributions.

Koch Industries is the single largest oil company contributor to both Republican and Democratic candidates for Congress. These contributions total $1,065,750 to the 110th US Congress (as of the third quarter), the largest of which has been to Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-KS) for $42,950. Rep. Tiahrt, for his part, has consistently voted with the oil industry on energy, war and climate bills.

(Source)
That's pretty amazing, the fact that Koch industries is THE single largest oil company contributor to both Dems and Repubs, and something that definitely needs to be looked at and considered for anyone who cares about big corporate money and corruption in politics.

[D] There's also the many many astroturf groups, including websites that are set up to deliberately misinform about the facts in order to promote an agenda. Examples of astroturf projects include:
-"Rally for Jobs"

The Rally for Jobs tour is the latest astroturf attempt by Koch and the rest of Big Oil to use the economic anxiety gripping the nation to stave off any new attempts to crack down on the industry’s emissions and to block new accountability measures in the wake of the BP oil disaster. The front group’s website uses standard energy industry boilerplate repeating the false claim that increased energy use and economic prosperity are inexorably linked

Source
-"Energy Citizens"

the American Petroleum Institute "Energy Citizens" rallies held last summer, which a leaked letter written by CEO Jack Gerard revealed to be covered in oil money. Like last summer, oil companies actually bussed employees to attend the rallies, as Maddow reports.

Source ,Source ,Source
-"Patients United"

a nationwide front group founded and funded by the right-wing polluter Koch Industries — is launching an ad campaign characterizing President Obama’s effort to reform the health care system as a government take-over that will ration care and care and deny treatments. A so-called “government-takeover” may be a personal ideological crusade for AFP...and its AstroTurf movement of corporate clients, but most Americans support greater government involvement in the health care system. A recent poll by Lake Research for Health Care For America Now shows that there is “intense and widespread support” for the choice of a public health insurance plan, with 73% of voters favoring a choice of a public or private plan, including large majorities of Democrats and independents (77% and 79%) but surprisingly, even a high plurality of Republicans (63%).

Source, Source, Source --> www.alternet.org...!
-"AngryRenter"

In 2008, FreedomWorks was behind the creation of a fake grassroots web site called Angryrenter.com which rallied opposition to "the Obama Housing Bailout"...The Web site urges like-minded tenants to let Congress feel their fury by signing an online petition. "We are millions of renters standing up for our rights!" Angry they may be, but the people behind AngryRenter.com are certainly not renters. Though it purports to be a spontaneous uprising, AngryRenter.com is actually a product of an inside-the-Beltway conservative advocacy organization led by Dick Armey, the former House majority leader, and publishing magnate Steve Forbes, a fellow Republican. It's a fake grass-roots effort -- what politicos call an AstroTurf campaign -- that provides a window into the sleight-of-hand ways of Washington.

Source
-"Patients First"

Patients First is a subsidiary of Americans for Prosperity...Patients First conducts bus tours around the country to create opposition to health care reform. Americans for Prosperity/Patients First visit cities and speaks to rally people and encourage them to oppose health care reform.....Patients First is responsible for spreading fear about proposals to reform healthcare. For example, its Web site says that a "Public Option Is a Back Door to a Total Washington Takeover," and claims that government would start denying treatments based on cost. The site does not mention that private insurance companies currently do this.

A speaker at an AFP co-sponsored event in Pueblo, Colorado repeated the discredited conservative idea that Democratic health care reform will mandate physician-assisted suicide or death for older members of society. "Adolf Hitler issued six million end of life orders -- he called his program the final solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to call ours," he said. The speaker further advises audience to "go to offices of members of Congress and put the fear of god in them."

Source Source
-Others include: "Hot Air Tour", "Drill For Jobs", "NoStimulus.com", "Tea Party Patriots", "NoStimulus.com"

And for the record, you are absolutely right that people would try and demonize a 14 year old Jewish boy trying to avoid death in Nazi Germany...and of course there's no comparison to the Koch family making their fortune by building factories and oil infrastructure for Stalin. [Keep in mind to, that many of these right wing extremists, don't even know what the word "Socialist" means, and it's merely a boogieman that gets used without any deference for reality]

Socialism:

As an economic system, socialism is the direct allocation of capital goods (means of production) to meet economic demands so that production is oriented toward use and accounting is based on some physical magnitude, such as physical quantities or a direct measure of labour time.[6][7] Goods and services for consumption are distributed through markets, and distribution of income is based on the principle of individual merit/individual contribution.[8]

Source
You see what I mean? "allocation of goods to meed demand", "goods and services distributed through markets", "distribution of income based on individual merit/contribution". I know huh! Sounds just[/j] like "Tyranny" and "Nazi-ism"! I wonder how the citizens of Sweden, Germany, France, Denmark, etc. tolerate such "oppression"