Yes, I'll vote Libertarian because it's what I believe in. And besides, I won't vote against a candidate. I want to vote for something, not against it. Anyway, as much as I dislike Bushie, I dislike Kerry as well. Aside from having the most left of center voting record in the Senate, I view him as a political opportunist. So, I dislike both, and will be voting for someone I believe in.

Originally posted by RANT
three new neo-con Supreme Court justices would be appointed for life, abortion and stem cell research would be kissed away for decades to come

Come on Rant - you don't really believe this, do you?

First, if Bush is re-elected, there's little prospect that THREE of the left-leaning judges will step down over the next four years. And don't forget that Supreme Court judges have to be confirmed by the Senate. I'm sure you're informed enough to know that Bushie's most radical judges aren't being confirmed. Our good friend Ted Kennedy won't allow a neo-con to be confirmed. And you surely don't think that the Reps are going to gain an absolute majority in the Senate?

Second, Bush did not ban stem cell research. He banned federal funding for it. I know that many people think that research can't happen without the helping hand of Uncle Sam, but there are, in fact, many rich benefactors who will step up to the plate as long as the issue is kept in the mainstream press. So, please don't perpetuate the mis-truth that Bush banned stem cell research. He didn't.

Third...well, I have no interest in getting into a discussion about abortion, so I won't touch that one.

Originally posted by RANT
There are 18 battle grounds that will decide everything. It would be nice if people considered that when they vote. Sadly, my vote is already moot being in NC. I could vote for anyone, but my delegate will still vote Bush.

Hmmm, I wish trading votes was more organized between states. I could vote Badnerick or Nader and not help Bush. But somewhere else it will.

If your delagate will vote bush anyhow why not go ahead and vote Libertarian?

At least you would be sending message to to both parties



[edit on 28-7-2004 by Amuk]

[edit on 28-7-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by HoonieSkoba

Originally posted by RANT
three new neo-con Supreme Court justices would be appointed for life, abortion and stem cell research would be kissed away for decades to come

Come on Rant - you don't really believe this, do you?

Yes I do. If you think Bush is radical in his first term, get ready for Bush exposed when re-election isn't on the table. Cheney has no future other than what he can grab in the next four. Rummy? Ashcroft? Back to the think tanks. This is it. The Last Stand.

I proposed my premise as hypothetical anyway, so you shouldn't be too upset by it. But I still think it's more akin to Bush's plans than not.

Considering Republicans have pretty much run the world for the last quarter century with the one exception of a moderate President Clinton that was obstructed into irrelevance by a Republican majority witch hunt...I don't think the vast majority of Dem criticism (as being just like the other guys) is even based on anything but Republican disinformation. Had the Dems run ANYTHING without being shouted down as unpatriotic pervs, or subsequently proven themselves big corporate pork shills or out to get the little guy (as opposed to just being labeled as such), do you really think I'd still support them?

It's the "whack jobs" heroic malcontents like Ted Kennedy and Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean that all but stood on their heads and made fools of themselves in public that kept America even remotely a democratic, free nation the past few years. But Dems get no respect for that. No respect for anything.

If anyone that dislikes Bush is seriously watching the Democratic National Convention and speeches like Barrack Obama's bringing tears to the eyes of people that remember a better world and hope for it again from the ONE PARTY that can beat Bush, but still finds them unacceptable, so be it.

But I chose to disagree and remain just as insulted by the assertion that all dems are just as bad as republicans, as those that support third parties appear to be when someone says their efforts are pointless.

I understand you feel disenfranchised. Really I Do! And wish you got more votes. But imagine if you will having more support, the majority of Americans agreeing with you, voting for you and YOU STILL LOSE! If Democrats are really just as corrupt as Republicans, I'll be honest and say we bold face suck at it, being the persistently disenfranchised majority in this country.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by RANT
There are 18 battle grounds that will decide everything. It would be nice if people considered that when they vote. Sadly, my vote is already moot being in NC. I could vote for anyone, but my delegate will still vote Bush.

Hmmm, I wish trading votes was more organized between states. I could vote Badnerick or Nader and not help Bush. But somewhere else it will.

If your delagate will vote bush anyhow why not go ahead and vote Libertarian?

At least you would be sending message to to both parties

I suppose I could (though I really want to show suppport for Edwards in NC), but the premise behind vote trading is finding a Kerry voter in a red state to vote Libertarian, and a Libertarian voter in a battleground to vote Kerry (as a stop gap to Bush). People sign up to do it all the time, but I'd really have to trust the person.

You misunderstand

If your delegate is gonna vote bush ANYHOW then it doesnt make any difference if you vote kerry or not either.

I still say vote your heart and to hell with it

No I'm on the same page Amuk. But I'm making the point that my vote is meaningless to highlight the battlegrounds where the only voters that matter decide the next President (sadly). Those states where all delegates are up for grabs and will go to either Bush or Kerry based on what a handful of Nader (and some Libertarian) voters decide to do (or not do).

This election is so unlike any in history it's shocking. Polling shows a whopping 83% has made up it's mind 100 days before the election and nothing said will matter. Compared to 38% going into the 2000 election. This tied race is locked and will remain so until the count.

Bah. It's over anyway. Bush already won. Might as well hit the Mickey Mouse button on Diebold. I'm out.

If I were a US citizen, I would vote Kerry, since doing so would be the most positive thing I could do to remove Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al. For the good of America and the world, these people must not remain in power.

A third party must gain a foothold in Congress and the Senate before it will ever have a chance at the presidency.

not to change the topic, but lets not forget how well Perot did in 92. (and don't forget if he didn't run Clinton would have never been president).

Rant, I'm glad you've already accepted the Bush win.

You make an excellent point, to add: it'll come done to 10% of the swing vote in 3 states Missouri, OH, Florida.

New Mexico could swing back to Bush and Ohioans aren't faulting Bush for Iraq. We just might see another Florida repeat I just hope there is a clear, clean cut win this time around. I think part of the division in this country didn't start in a post 9/11 world rather with the 2000 elections.

Bob88, you're right, and I hear it may be even closer.

Florida is red. Done deal.

You know more about Ohio, but I hear Gephardt isn't producing in Missouri at all.

So it's pretty much over. But I'll fight on.

I think I've just been 'ranted' at.

Now, I don't want to be labeled!!! If I like a person and believe they'll do a good job running the government, I'll vote for them. BTW, I'm hopefully supporting a Democrat for Missouri governor's race this year (if she can get through the primary).

Anyway, I'm not upset by your stand or displeasure with Bushie. I simply don't agree with your belief that the world will go to hell if Bush is re-elected. (And no, I don't think it will go to hell if Kerry is elected either.) Further, I was specifically addressing your hyperbolic assertions about stem cell research and the Supreme Court. That is what I was questioning you on. There's no way the Supreme Court will be stacked with three neo-cons, and stem cell research is not banned.

I'm really sorry that you're so depressed about the state of the world. It will get better. And fret not, the Democrats will get their turn again. If not this time, then very likely in 2008 (maybe Obama?). If you believe in Kerry, then by all means, beat the drum. It sounds like you want something to believe in!

One last thing. I don't feel disenfranchised. I know my vote will count (it's hard to miss when your party gets under 10,000 votes). And I know that I've got nice people like you to debate my silly little world view with if I ever feel like no one is listening to me.

Originally posted by HoonieSkoba
I think I've just been 'ranted' at.

Sorry.

I'm really sorry that you're so depressed about the state of the world. It will get better. And fret not, the Democrats will get their turn again. If not this time, then very likely in 2008 (maybe Obama?). If you believe in Kerry, then by all means, beat the drum. It sounds like you want something to believe in!

Actually, I'm all set on what I believe in...being all growed up and everything. And I've known for a while.

One of my earliest memories is the "bad man" that interrupted The Wonderful World of Disney to talk about how God is his boss, not the Constitution, yet even if a slew of angels told him otherwise, he'd still have to pardon Nixon since his crime was as much my fault as his.

I was 5 years old, and knew then that this man and the people he represents should never, ever again have the power to interrupt The Wonderful World of Disney. I stand by my formative decision.

[Edited on 28-7-2004 by RANT]

Re-reading that post, I realize that I sounded a bit condescending. Appologies!

I was around 4 at the time of your formative experience, but we didn't have a TV, so I didn't get experience the Wonderful World of Disney (although I did finally get to ride Space Mountain 2 years ago, hurray!). So, I guess I'm technically "growed up" too, although I don't like to admit it.

I'll give you this: the Democratics have done a good job in their convention. Some of the speeches have been really inspiring. I enjoyed that bit from the Marine tonight (Brozak), Obama was really great yesterday, and Bob Graham actually made me laugh out loud with that line about Osama Bin Missing. I hope the Reps pull out some inspiring stuff in August too...

To any person in the school of "My vote doesn't count" and "Bush won anyway":

Is that what being an American is today?

Is that democracy or is it apathy?

What do you do with the righteous anger that you feel? Bury it and suppress it? Is that healthy?

Is this problem of general apathy one of dumbing down over the past 20 years, or is it something more sinister in the recent acute impact of fear and terror messaging?

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Is that what being an American is today?

Is that democracy or is it apathy?

What do you do with the righteous anger that you feel? Bury it and suppress it? Is that healthy?

In most places I might agree with you. Personally, I think a lot of people are feeling voting depression. The feeling or knowledge that no matter how a person votes, the vote will go a way they don't want it to.

They probably (around here anyway) will vote the way they like anyhow, but still know (and be depressed about) that the guy they thought would win their state did.

We can send a message though.

I would vote for an ecological libertarian.

Life is short. Have fun. Vote your conscience. We'll all see what happens.
.

I just got a response from the bednark campaign manager that reads:

Thank you very much for your support of our party and Mr. Badnarik. If
would like to "go the extra mile" and volunteer, please send your resume
and skill set to volunteer@badnarik.org. Please send a description of
your event to events@badnarik.org, and we will see if Mr. Badnarik can
make it. Thank you for your efforts.

[name censored] (not sure if he would want it out there or if i'm being paranoid for him)
Executive Assistant to the Campaign Manager
Badnarik/Campagna 2004


Soooo, i'm really hoping he can come to our great lakes meetup in Aug...
If you guys want to volunteer email at the above address...
I told him I would campaign and mail things out in my county and the areas that we're having the meetup in.. I would be really happy to see him..

I don't like Bush. I don't like Kerry. Moreover, I refuse to vote *against* one canditate to choose the lesser of two evils. Truthfully, I don't even know which that would be.

Am I voting third party? Yes. Even though I know there's probably no chance? Yep. If more people voted for who they wanted - or what party they wanted - instead of against someone I think this country would go a lot farther.

A large number of smaller, equal parties is not good for a country, nor is having two dominate parties. We need to find a better balance, IMHO.

Who will I vote for? Not sure. Maybe green, but I need to look at the candidates.

Cercey