How do I know that YOU have consciousness?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Then it is YOU and "something else". Correct? Two separate realities.

Are you a separate entity from your subconscious?

If not, then what you perceive as "something else" may not be "something else" after all.

This may sound like a trivial issue but if you read much Carl Jung, he can explode this point using plenty of clinical cases, to show it is not trivial at all and we are inherently connected in many different ways to our surroundings. What distinguishes the human being from its surroundings is namely its sense of self-awareness, simply the perception of being a separate entity.

To be conscious of something means to be aware of it.

If you are not aware of something, then you are not conscious of it.

Get it?

reply to post by Deaf Alien


I understand your two sentences but I'm having trouble extrapolating what that means in terms of proving that another person is conscious like you are. We're not aware of the consciousness in others in the same way that we are aware of it in ourselves.

The OP is asking if there is any way to prove others are consciousness at all. I have to admit I don't know of any way to prove such a thing.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
If you "separated" yourself into pieces, you would still be aware of others. That would be one hell of a multitasking job.

Ahh but there is a miracle! You are already billions of cells, even bacteria in your gut that digests your food. You are already made up of many billions of discrete parts. The miracle is the way they work together in order to create a sense of consciousness for the over-all system.


It would be very hard to multi-task indeed if your subconscious didn't automatically handle all of those things by itself. Your subconscious is basically the inherent intelligence of all the parts of your body itself, and by extension to the environment that produced you.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Then it is YOU and "something else". Correct? Two separate realities.

Are you a separate entity from your subconscious?

If not, then what you perceive as "something else" may not be "something else" after all.

This may sound like a trivial issue but if you read much Carl Jung, he can explode this point using plenty of clinical cases, to show it is not trivial at all and we are inherently connected in many different ways to our surroundings. What distinguishes the human being from its surroundings is namely its sense of self-awareness, simply the perception of being a separate entity.

To be conscious of something means to be aware of it.

If you are not aware of something, then you are not conscious of it.

Get it?

Okay, so if following this idea .. can we say that there actually isn't a subconscious mind? I am not being sarcastic by the way. I am being serious (seriously playing around with these ideas) that maybe there isn't a subconscious at all. At least maybe not the subconscious that the mainstream scientists think of.

What if there really isn't a subconscious mind WITHIN you? What if the subconscious mind is really "GOD" that not only helps your body function perfectly, but is creating the entire world around you?

You know what I mean? Scientists think there is a subconscious mind per person because they think each person must have one in order to help the body function. But what if subconscious mind is not within each of us? Instead, it is outside of us? It not only controls all of our body functions - but is creating (expanding) the universe at each moment?

It's just an idea. I don't know too much about subconscious mind. So maybe someone already proved that subconscious mind actually exists within each of us.

Anyways, because without the conscious mind, does the subconscious exist? It's the same as my original question - we wouldn't know. We THINK we know because even after other people die, their body still functions for awhile. But if I (conscious mind) die, I really wouldn't be able to tell if there is a subconscious mind or not. Right?

Following this line of ideas - one can say that the only thing existing IS consciousness.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Deaf Alien

 

I understand your two sentences but I'm having trouble extrapolating what that means in terms of proving that another person is conscious like you are. We're not aware of the consciousness in others in the same way that we are aware of it in ourselves.

The OP is asking if there is any way to prove others are consciousness at all. I have to admit I don't know of any way to prove such a thing.

I am not trying to prove the OP. What I am trying to say is that it is impossible for one to be able to create reality that we see without being conscious of it.

This paves the road to OP.

Of course we have philosophy, metaphysics, and neuroscience.

As it stands, we are NOT conscious of everything.

Billions of galaxies orbiting each other? Stars orbiting each other? Plants, animals, bugs, etc? Evolution? Differential equations? Tensors? Riemann geometry? Many, many more?

For those who think they are the only ones... seriously? That person creating that complex reality? And NOT aware of it?

reply to post by yic17

What if there really isn't a subconscious mind WITHIN you? What if the subconscious mind is really "GOD" that not only helps your body function perfectly, but is creating the entire world around you?

You are still saying there are at least TWO separate realities.

Maybe there are only you and the universe (or god). However, it is still something OTHER than you.

You would enjoy reading the philosophy classics.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by yic17

 

What if there really isn't a subconscious mind WITHIN you? What if the subconscious mind is really "GOD" that not only helps your body function perfectly, but is creating the entire world around you?

You are still saying there are at least TWO separate realities.

Maybe there are only you and the universe (or god). However, it is still something OTHER than you.

You would enjoy reading the philosophy classics.

True.

So are you saying that your subconscious mind is separated from you?

My response to that. Ultimately there is only one consciousness. You are not conscious and I am not conscious. But WE are. We are all one.

reply to post by yic17

So are you saying that your subconscious mind is separated from you?

First define what is meant by the term "you".

Are you conscious of your subconscious mind?

Notice that you are using the term "you" as if I am someone else outside of you.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
My response to that. Ultimately there is only one consciousness. You are not conscious and I am not conscious. But WE are. We are all one.

Yes, I have heard that before. But how can I know that we are ONE?

Because WE implies separation. And I do feel pretty separated from you right now

Why does consciousness make it so that many people don't know that they are connected?

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by yic17

 

So are you saying that your subconscious mind is separated from you?

First define what is meant by the term "you".

Are you conscious of your subconscious mind?

Notice that you are using the term "you" as if I am someone else outside of you.

I am not conscious of my subconscious mind. But science would tell me that the subconscious mind is part of me. So how can something that I am unaware of be a part of me?

As of "you", I think it's the same as the above question.

Well how about this....

Let's assume that the definition of consciousness is the awareness of being aware. As an example, every day you drive to work. You stop at and then proceed through a traffic light.

But, one day, you catch yourself noticing that you are NOTICING the light is red. That, to me is the definition of consciousness.

With that in mind as a definition, I'm fairly convinced that if you can do the same with another human being, while speaking with them, then because, by the definition above, if YOU are in fact conscious, then THEY are in fact conscious if you can ask them to be equally as aware. Otherwise, they are simply a figment of your imagination, and were they that, then you are NOT really conscious.

reply to post by yic17


It seems like that I am confused as to your OP? It seems that I am in agreement with you?

You know that uh over used new age phrase? We are the all, and the all are us. That's borrowed from Buddhism.

We are one and the many (at the same time). I guess it is a paradox?

reply to post by yic17

I am not conscious of my subconscious mind. But science would tell me that the subconscious mind is part of me. So how can something that I am unaware of be a part of me?

You have not properly defined what consciousness is in your OP.

As I have said, if you are not "conscious" of something, it is separate from you. When you realize this, you are aware of something OTHER than you.

As for science, it is merely a speculation. Like I said, study philosophy, metaphysics, and neuroscience.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by yic17

 

I am not conscious of my subconscious mind. But science would tell me that the subconscious mind is part of me. So how can something that I am unaware of be a part of me?

You have not properly defined what consciousness is in your OP.

As I have said, if you are not "conscious" of something, it is separate from you. When you realize this, you are aware of something OTHER than you.

As for science, it is merely a speculation. Like I said, study philosophy, metaphysics, and neuroscience.

Well, let's use your definition of consciousness for now. The one that is "aware".

So you DO think that your subconscious mind is separated to your conscious mind? Since you are unable to be aware of your subconscious mind.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I am not trying to prove the OP. What I am trying to say is that it is impossible for one to be able to create reality that we see without being conscious of it.

Well let's use the dream metaphor. Can your subconscious mind not create all your dream scenery and characters without your conscious intention?

Originally posted by yic17
Yes, I have heard that before. But how can I know that we are ONE?

That's a little easier than the question in the OP, but still a little tricky to explain. I've got two approaches for you to consider...

First is the linguistic approach based on the word "universe," which I do not however think is just a matter of semantics. It's a commonly-accepted word that basically refers to everything that people are aware of. However, you'll notice it's singular, not plural. So everything that people are aware of, has already been given a name and a conception as a singular entity, ie something that is one thing. If you are comfortable imagining a universe that altogether is 1 thing and yet consists of everything, then by this reasoning you are already implying that everything is part of 1 thing, and in that sense "all is one," ie "all is the universe."

The second approach you can consider is, where do you end, and your environment begins? If you try to pick this apart, you might realize that "you" and "your environment" don't really have a clear dividing line, and really it's all just different forms of energy, more like a gradient that fades to infinity than having any discrete borders. You could say your body ends with your skin but that's not really true when you consider the energy fields that also make you alive, and in many ways are more vital than your skin, such as your EM energy field that makes your heart pump. There are also parts of your body that you may be totally unaware of, while simultaneously being aware of something that's happening on the other side of the world by some means of communication/sensory input. The relation between you and your environment is a vital one that also tends to illustrate that there is a unity going on that transcends either of the individual components.

Why does consciousness make it so that many people don't know that they are connected?

My impression of this is because many things would not be possible if things were otherwise, and creation is all about new experiences.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by yic17
Yes, I have heard that before. But how can I know that we are ONE?

That's a little easier than the question in the OP, but still a little tricky to explain. I've got two approaches for you to consider...

First is the linguistic approach based on the word "universe," which I do not however think is just a matter of semantics. It's a commonly-accepted word that basically refers to everything that people are aware of. However, you'll notice it's singular, not plural. So everything that people are aware of, has already been given a name and a conception as a singular entity, ie something that is one thing. If you are comfortable imagining a universe that altogether is 1 thing and yet consists of everything, then by this reasoning you are already implying that everything is part of 1 thing, and in that sense "all is one," ie "all is the universe."

The second approach you can consider is, where do you end, and your environment begins? If you try to pick this apart, you might realize that "you" and "your environment" don't really have a clear dividing line, and really it's all just different forms of energy, more like a gradient that fades to infinity than having any discrete borders. You could say your body ends with your skin but that's not really true when you consider the energy fields that also make you alive, and in many ways are more vital than your skin, such as your EM energy field that makes your heart pump. There are also parts of your body that you may be totally unaware of, while simultaneously being aware of something that's happening on the other side of the world by some means of communication/sensory input. The relation between you and your environment is a vital one that also tends to illustrate that there is a unity going on that transcends either of the individual components.

Why does consciousness make it so that many people don't know that they are connected?

My impression of this is because many things would not be possible if things were otherwise, and creation is all about new experiences.

Both of those are actually my current beliefs of the universe =\

So consciousness won't even let the people who want to wake up to wake up? ... -_-

reply to post by bsbray11


by the way, we haven't come to the conclusion that subconscious is for per person or if it's for everyone, right? it's still possible that subconscious mind is like God and its the one that is processing everyone's bodies, creating dreams, and maybe even creating the reality we see around us?

Originally posted by yic17
So consciousness won't even let the people who want to wake up to wake up? ... -_-

I don't know the structure or "hierarchy" or whatever to it all, but I can't help thinking we knew what we were getting ourselves into before the fact, and I also think we're heading back towards a fuller awareness again, or at least we have that option.

by the way, we haven't come to the conclusion that subconscious is for per person or if it's for everyone, right? it's still possible that subconscious mind is like God and its the one that is processing everyone's bodies, creating dreams, and maybe even creating the reality we see around us?

Right. This is also what Jung wondered about it a lot of his work, and it's extremely fascinating. Animals are more demonstrably linked to some "hive mentality" where all of a sudden a whole community of animals will change their behavior at the same time, whether it's running away from a disaster before it happens or even at least one case of monkeys isolated on various islands all learning to wash their food in the river at the same time, and without contact with one another.

This all gets into really strange stuff that still has no answer that I'm aware of. Jung thought maybe our genetics had something to do with our subconscious but then he also found clinical reasons to doubt this if I remember his work correctly, so in the end I'm not sure he ever came to a conclusion. My own thoughts are that anything that any form of intelligence can use as a message, even something as simple as the hand gesture of a stranger you pass on the side of the road, could trigger something in your subconscious. It seems impossible to narrow down to a single simple mechanism, but if we're dealing with some advanced (collective sub)consciousness that's ultimately in control, who can say? I think this whole subject is awe-inspiring.