How do I know that YOU have consciousness?

Originally posted by yic17
Okay, here's a philosophical question I have read many times but haven't gotten a solid answer yet.

So I know that "I" have consciousness. But how do I know that YOU or any other living being on Earth/Universe also have consciousness?

Is there any way anyone can show solid proof that you have consciousness besides of saying "I know because I do!"?

How do I know that I am not the only conscious thing in the Universe and that everything is just within my mind?

Thanks.

If you feel that maybe you are the only conscious thing in the Universe then who are you asking the question to?
Yourself obviously.

Which means that the only being replying on this entire thread is you.

Which also means that this whole thread is an exercise in ego. My ego, because obviously I'm you.

I expect you knew I was gonna say that, didn't you? You know me so well.

Originally posted by SkyBluePegasus
If you feel that maybe you are the only conscious thing in the Universe then who are you asking the question to?
Yourself obviously.

Which means that the only being replying on this entire thread is you.

Which also means that this whole thread is an exercise in ego. My ego, because obviously I'm you.

I expect you knew I was gonna say that, didn't you? You know me so well.

Well, even if I didn't know you were gonna say that (which I did btw lol) - it still doesn't prove to me that you have your own consciousness separated from mine. Because in a dream, I don't have to imagine or create all the environments, people, and scenarios that happen around me yet they exist. I dream almost everyday and am surprised by my dreams everyday with things that I cannot consciously think of.

So just because I do not have the power to control, create, or change the things around me in this reality - that doesn't prove that everything around me has its own consciousness either. It's possible that my subconscious mind created everything around me and I am living through my own conscious mind.

So maybe I should be asking .. I am wondering if everything around me has its own subconscious mind or is everything around me created by my own subconscious mind?

reply to post by yic17


What kind of questions are these?

Maybe YOU are the one being percieved by others. Maybe your existence is merely an illusion.

Obviously these questions are pointless and intrinsically unanswerable.

So just because I do not have the power to control, create, or change the things around me in this reality - that doesn't prove that everything around me has its own consciousness either. It's possible that my subconscious mind created everything around me and I am living through my own conscious mind.

First, i hope this question is out of curiosity, and not out of genuine worry. The truth is, we dont know, and all of us wonder the same thing. Are you to think that all of us are merely tricking you into thinking that we exist? That isnt a sane thought, nor is it very optimistic. Thus were forced to think what is right and good for our wellbeing of mind.

Originally posted by dontreally
What kind of questions are these?

Philosophical questions for the purpose of seeking the truth.

Originally posted by dontreally
Obviously these questions are pointless and intrinsically unanswerable.

Are they? I didn't know that - that's why I asked. At this point it does seem like they may be unanswerable but I still don't know for sure.

Are they pointless? I don't think so. At least not to me that's why I asked. In fact, I believe these questions are some of the most important questions anyone can ask in life because it deals with reality at its core. I think it is important to understand the reality I live in. Or at least I want to understand it.

Originally posted by dontreally
First, i hope this question is out of curiosity, and not out of genuine worry. The truth is, we dont know, and all of us wonder the same thing. Are you to think that all of us are merely tricking you into thinking that we exist? That isnt a sane thought, nor is it very optimistic. Thus were forced to think what is right and good for our wellbeing of mind.

Do my questions offend you? I have no intention to be offensive to anyone with my questions. I am just genuinely curious about these questions because I am unable to answer them. And I am curious to see what others think on the matter.

Originally posted by yic17


Do my questions offend you? I have no intention to be offensive to anyone with my questions. I am just genuinely curious about these questions because I am unable to answer them. And I am curious to see what others think on the matter.

All seeking is dilemma. If you Understand you are Seeking, you can Spontaneously Abandon Seeking.

Enquiry, Meditation and the 'Method' of Understanding (this essay was written by Adi Da (Franklin Jones) in 1970. It was part of his original Knee of Listening autobiography but was never included - due to the necessity to reduce the size of the book) - (the title is Beezone's).

Understanding is seated in consciousness. It is conscious realization. It is not seated in dilemma or any effect. It is not seated in the unconscious or subconscious, nor does it wait upon these as if they contained the source of its true intelligence or content. Neither is it seated in the superconscious planes or wait upon them, by excluding consciousness or what is below consciousness, as if exclusive super consciousness alone were the center and source of its only mind. It is reality functioning on the level of consciousness or the conscious mind, which is the focal point or medium of what is above and below. Thus, the seat of understanding as a free activity at first appears in the head. A point in the very center of the head is the seat of the force of the conscious mind. That point of understanding is openly aware of the levels of consciousness above and below. Thus, it is linked to the processes below, which are unconscious and subconscious, as well as those above, which are superconscious or non-mental. In the process of enquiry, which is real meditation, a man simply rests in understanding. In formal meditation he merely sits comfortably and free of the need to respond to activities in his environment. He already understands. He has already examined the nature of suffering, of dilemma and of action. Thus he sits and enjoys the fulness of understanding in his form at that moment. Enquiry begins at the point where he becomes aware of the tendency of his conscious awareness. Depending upon the stresses of his life expression at that moment, his awareness will tend to move or become associated with attention to movement or tension, thought or feeling in some area or plane of the body. Thus, his awareness will be directed from the center of understanding in the head, analogous to the viewpoint of his eyes (which should remain closed) toward some area of his form, above or below. In general, he will probably move naturally in attention toward some process analogous to the lower body. He will be aware of some sexual tension, or some energy below, or some feeling. These sensations also correspond to the lower "chakras," the creative centers of energy at the base of the spine (anus), the sacral center (sexuality), and the navel or solar plexus (personal power). The enquiry, which is the free activity of understanding, should thus be allowed to confront whatever area the mind tends to pursue. When this movement begins, he should enquire "Avoiding relationship?" He should not seek to remove the tendency itself. He should only enquire. If the tendency remains, he should only enquire. If he becomes disturbed that the tendency does not vanish, he should only enquire of that disturbance. Whatever arises, he should only enquire. This enquiry can be done as an internal mental activity, either as a silent verbalization of the mind in understanding or as an intention of understanding without internal verbalization. The frequency of the enquiry should be determined by the individual, as he perceives the practical effect of his approach. As the enquiry proceeds the tendency of attention will begin to break up and dissolve. The enquiry is understanding, and so the form of consciousness will begin to disassociate or detach from the area of attention and rest in understanding. The experience will be one of relief or release of attention and a return to rest in a kind of fulness. As one area of attention dissolves another tendency will replace it and gather the energy of consciousness. Then the enquiry should follow it as before and continue until it also dissolves or is replaced. The man who is beginning the way of understanding is likely to feel the tendency of consciousness to move in a chronic pattern of attention in the lower body. This is only natural, since we chronically associate with the life processes, the energies of the lower body. Food-desire, sex, vital communication, etc. are the basic and chronic content of ordinary life. Real life is not opposed to such energies or experiences. They are not the problem, nor are they necessarily destructive. Indeed, they are in the form of life and are part of our present fulfilment. We are not constrained to transcend these centers of energy and lock them out. What ultimate and necessary fulfilment can we ascribe to the saint who has risen to an exclusive identity with the highest center of being and dwells only in the heaven of his God? In spite of him, the universes continue to exist, and his God remains to manifest and enjoy them and pursue their perfection. Thus, there is no peculiar dilemma or "lowness" involved in the tendency to concentration in the lowest dimensions of our creative existence. We remain in understanding even then and suffer no motive to escape or destroy them. The dilemma is not in the existence of such processes of life and energy, but in the enforced concentration in them apart from understanding. Such concentration is the root of suffering, of separateness and the motives of dilemma. Thus, it is only necessary to abide radically in understanding and not despair of it. It is only necessary to enquire and not turn to some activity apart from understanding which seeks to abolish the lower energy itself. Over time the man who understands will experience gradual relief from the symptoms of his problematic life. In his ease he will naturally and voluntarily change the patterns of his life. They will simply fall away in the force of understanding and the full bliss of his consciousness. Indeed, even before a man begins to adapt to the processes of enquiry and meditation, he must have understood. And he will already have modified his behavior in the direction of an easy internal control. Understanding, even before it develops into profound internal enquiry, is already a purifying force that relieves a man from much voluntary self-exploitation that he previously added to chronic difficulty. Thus, enquiry continues to attend to the tendency of consciousness in meditation. Where understanding has become well-developed through this experience, or in a man relatively free of enforced concentration in the lower energies, the attention will gradually move into higher areas. Then he may tend to the emotions of the heart and even its psychic depth. Abiding in understanding, he should enquire also of these: "Avoiding relationship?" And so this concentration will also ease. He may move higher, into the center analogous to the lower throat and the thyroid gland, which are also the seat of Shakti, and so witness the display of power, the higher psyche, the vibrations and glowing mentality of profound internal regions. He should abide in understanding and continue to enquire. No matter where his mind tends to move, he should continue to enquire, gently but intensively, directly to the content of his involvement. In any case, the field of his attention is always a separative movement, as he will discover by enquiry, by radically holding to understanding, which is the source of enquiry. The result of this process of understanding appears to be a kind of ascent, as if there were an abandonment of the lower. This is, however, not in fact the case. There is simply a relaxation of attention. Ordinarily we are drawn into enforced and chronic attention in various centers of energy or experience. These became the foundation of our point of view, and so a man who is profoundly and exclusively concentrated in some complex of experience feels that energy overwhelmingly, and everything else, including the centers of his conscious life apart from that, appears over against it. This is the mechanism whereby men acquire the root consciousness of separateness and the chronic activity of separativeness. But when a man clings to understanding this complex of concentration eases and relaxes, so that he regains the natural contact with the total circuit of conscious life, which natively and already knows its freedom and wholeness. As a result of the way of understanding through enquiry, the forms of chronic concentration are relieved and the man abides in understanding rather than the exclusive centers of concentration. The process of enquiry is not a search for understanding or any effect, but it is understanding maintaining itself and knowing itself under all conditions. Thus, in one who continually understands, fear and chronic reactivity are gradually stilled. What in fact has happened is that he no longer is concentrated in some separate complex of energy, some portion of the circuit of being. The man who is fixed in animated sexuality and acquisition which tend to exhaust and dissipate life energy, becomes vital, healthier and stronger as this concentration is eased and he restores the internal connection with the higher center in the solar plexus Just so, a man experiences an emotional expansion and a true relational ability as he restores the connection to the creative center at the heart. His effectiveness and power increase as he opens even higher in the throat and the mental centers in the head. Thus, we see that the ascent which this process involves is in fact not an abandonment of the lower but a greater and greater inclusiveness, so that the man begins to function as a whole and experiences creative control over life processes. This inclusiveness and not any kind of exclusive ascent or descent is the form of real existence, of creative life. And the way of understanding is the root of that inclusive and real life. As the process of real meditation increases in its radical intensity, the man will find that the mind tends less and less to concentrate in the centers below the head. In time he will have achieved such ease of internal relationship to life and he will have come to exercise such creative control or use of the life process that he will not be drawn excitedly to the impressions of the life complex. His enquiry will quickly move through these movements and he will center easily in the form of understanding, in a fulness that is silent and blissful. He will enjoy the radiant calm and certainty that is natural to the center of consciousness in the head. Such a man has achieved creative realization of the unconscious and subconscious life process. He has not abandoned life, nor does he minimize it. It has simply become an area of creative enjoyment that is usable to him and free of necessary dilemma. Such a person will then also feel the mind, the center of consciousness or conscious understanding, tend upward toward what is in fact superconscious, prior to life individuality. In meditation he will experience a new form of enquiry. The problem in the mind and the creative centers below the head is generally one of the refusal of relationship in a concrete sense. It is life-abandonment, the refusal of life processes, the life of love and inclusion, of intelligence and human creativity. But when enquiry is drawn above, toward what is not conscious but superconscious and thus not presently included in the field of the mind, the individual begins to comprehend the avoidance of relationship on a new level. Then it is not a matter of the avoidance of concrete relationship by separating yourself as an entity from other entities. Personal existence in the world is not a function of the higher conscious life. In meditation, as the individual is drawn above, toward the aperture at the top and slightly to the rear of the head, he will remain in understanding and enquire as before, but his realization will not be one of relational ease. Instead, he will perceive that the very concept of his individual existence as it functions on a conscious level and down into the subconscious and unconscious life levels is in fact the source of dilemma or separateness. He will simply see that it does not apply, indeed, does not exist, and the separative movement that creates it on the mental level will simply dissolve. In that intense perception in understanding the fundamental activity of identification and differentiation will reveal itself and subside, at first for brief moments, and then easily, for longer periods, until it becomes a constant that also affects the operating basis of the conscious mind. Those who pursue this very perception as an exclusive goal call it "enlightenment" or "Self-realization," a kind of once and for all attainment. In fact it is only the natural perception of super-consciousness. If a man has manipulated himself in dilemma to the point of temporary abandonment of the "lower" life and even the living mind, he will feel he has attained reality and so await the dissolution of his personal existence at death. But the man who understands does not abandon understanding or life. He has no motive for doing so. He will not be troubled by the return to mental life and human existence. He simply understands that he has begun to include an even higher center and source of true being in life. In any case, whatever arises in meditation, you should abide in understanding and simply enquire. In time the movement of consciousness will not even tend to the point of super-consciousness above. The enquiry will become radical knowledge prior to every kind of activity and perception. Then you will find that understanding even ceases to function as a mental activity. It will have become radically concentrated in that to which the enquiry always leads. That silence, incomparable depth and formless object of contemplation will become utterly absorbing. Then, suddenly, you may find that you are seated in the heart. All the movements of consciousness, on every level, will have fallen away, and you will remain tacitly aware as no-seeking in the heart, to the right side of the chest. You will possess unqualified knowledge of Reality and enjoy untouchable bliss. And it will be the same bliss you know as understanding. But do not seek this state, and, if it comes, continue to enquire as soon as you possess a mind with which to enquire. As your enquiry continues you will discover that you rise again out of the heart, while yet remaining founded in the heart. You will experience the current of bliss and joy rising again to the sahasrar. And this current or circuit of bliss will remain, even under the conditions of enquiry, as your fundamental form. It is the Amrita Nadi, the "bright." It is enjoyment, no-dilemma, and it contains every creative faculty. In that form, as you continue the life of understanding and enquiry, you will enjoy the continuous flowering of every kind of wisdom and knowledge. Understanding, from the beginning and forever, is the source of our true and real life. It is possessed of no exclusive goal, and thus it is not motivated to concentrate above or below. Its motivation is its own and very form, which is already inclusive. Thus, just as we in our ordinary humanity suffer by exclusive concentration in what is below understanding, we would likewise suffer by exclusive concentration in what is above it. To concentrate in the centers or realms of the superconscious is a separative activity, not an inclusive one. It is enforced and recommended by the teachings invented in the great search. Real life, radically founded in understanding, maintains the form or circuit of conscious life. The full life of understanding is not one in which the unconscious and subconscious become conscious activities of the mind (although such is at least experimentally possible, as proven by certain yogis). Nor is it one in which the superconscious becomes a conscious process under the control of the conscious mind (although such control or consciousness appears to be represented in the attainment of certain great saints). The full life of understanding is one in which the unconscious and subconscious processes remain as such, and so also with the superconscious processes. The difference is that the dilemma is removed, and the link or circuit between them all, including the process of consciousness and conscious understanding, is attained, asserted and enjoyed. Thus, the real man is creatively present. He operates in the mind of understanding, which is fully bathed in the higher light, and which moves into the creative realization and even evolution of life. This real man is the future man of all the universes. In him the creative movement coming out of the heart will find fulfilment in the great realization of manifest existence. Such men, who abide radically in understanding and so realize life apart from dilemma, search and fear, are creatively involved in maintaining and using the form of reality. They operate to restore that form by constantly regaining the circuit of consciousness and power that begins in the heart. And they move to make that form the basis for all actual existence, even what we call the human. more: Knee of Listening Home | Intro | Beezone Articles | Tradition Articles | Adi Da Articles | email | top of page "The perfect among the sages is identical with Me. There is absolutely no difference between us" Tripura Rahasya, Chap XX, 128-133 All copyright materials are used under authority of the Fair Use statute. (United State Code, Title 17) Fair Use

Originally posted by yic17


Philosophical questions for the purpose of seeking the truth.

.

Philosophical questions are subjective, and seeking the truth is subjective too.

But since I am you and you are me, you already knew that, our ego told me to say all this.

Darn Ego.

Consciousness is nothing that love is. Do not mistake consciousness for love.

What is also very important is love.

(Bible) 1 Corinthians 13;2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


Love is very precious.

I am the dream character in your dream that is dreaming you.

I am the character in your dream telling you that you are dreaming right now.

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
I am the dream character in your dream that is dreaming you.

I am the character in your dream telling you that you are dreaming right now.

So how do I know that I am dreaming right now? And if I am dreaming right now, how do I wake up?

A therapist of mine, preaches we all come into this world blank, and the programs try to control us. But, when you seperate the programs out there is nothing. And that everything we do is for self, no matter what it is. and that there is no other conscious except our own.
I like this train of thought, because no matter how bad the programs say things should be, when you realize its just a program, its nothing.

Originally posted by yic17

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
I am the dream character in your dream that is dreaming you.

I am the character in your dream telling you that you are dreaming right now.

So how do I know that I am dreaming right now? And if I am dreaming right now, how do I wake up?

Only you can realize if you are dreaming right now. And only you can wake yourself up.

When you do, you will still be here realizing you are dreaming. Does that mean the dream will change?

Who is the dreamer, and what is the dream?

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
Only you can realize if you are dreaming right now. And only you can wake yourself up.

When you do, you will still be here realizing you are dreaming. Does that mean the dream will change?

Who is the dreamer, and what is the dream?

Uhh .. I think this is too complex for me to understand right now. Some thinking is required ...

Btw, did you write the article Deja Reve in your signature? Do you know much about deja vues? Because I get them very often ... I have had at least 100 of them by now since I was a kid. Never really understood them ... Perhaps you can share some info on deja vues with me.

It's kinda late (3:18am) .. so I'll read that article in ur sig tomorrow.

reply to post by lifeform11


beautiful!..anyway..if somebody else has doubts about beeing alone or not i would reccomend reading about C.G.Jungs s theory about the unconscious..the man was right and i personally think Freud s theory was incomplete...so think about what `collective`implies..more than 1!...
ave to all thinkers!

reply to post by yic17


this is something have pondered all my life, i even thought that maybe everyone else was just a robot, or that maybe i was in a computer program (in 1989 before the Matrix was written) at the end of the day all i can do is give you my word, as a gentleman, that i really do have consciousness, I swear it on my Mum's grave, which i don't do lightly!

Originally posted by yic17
Okay, here's a philosophical question I have read many times but haven't gotten a solid answer yet.

So I know that "I" have consciousness. But how do I know that YOU or any other living being on Earth/Universe also have consciousness?

Is there any way anyone can show solid proof that you have consciousness besides of saying "I know because I do!"?

How do I know that I am not the only conscious thing in the Universe and that everything is just within my mind?

Thanks.

Solipsism.



Great area to ponder.



Sorry, but I am the only consciousness and you know it.


Prove to me that you exist.


You can't.



Even if I saw you in person I wouldn't believe it.



I could touch you, but that would only be because I need that to make my experience more realistic.



Thanks.

reply to post by yic17

One simple proof that we all have consciousness is that we have free will, we certainly do not act like machines in a programmed fashion. we all have capabilities of reasoning and logical thinking which machines do not have, they just operate on the same program and repeat the same things again and again. This argument is the proof that we all have consciousness, but this argument is no longer valid now as we all are turning into machines, with our free will being taken away from us. And those of us who enroll themselves in various secret societies have even lesser free will than us. you should watch this video series to understand the nature of reality and consciousness.

I don't hold any spooky superstitious beliefs, so I can only argue this from my view of logic.

In my view the answer is "complexity". If this was YOUR world, set up to teach you or test you (seems implied by the thought that rest of us are created by your conciousness), it would not need such complexity to achieve those goals. The world is enormous, you will likely not experience 99% of it in your life, there are 7 billion of us, it would be an amazing feat to have a useful interaction with one million people, that's 0.0001428% of humanity.

There are biillions of years of observable history around us, only perhaps 100 of which you will experience (learn anything about yourself from the brontosauras?).

Seems like a waste to me. Besides that, if you are creating the universe, could I have a more comfy bed to sleep on please?

Originally posted by yic17

Uhh .. I think this is too complex for me to understand right now. Some thinking is required ...

Btw, did you write the article Deja Reve in your signature? Do you know much about deja vues? Because I get them very often ... I have had at least 100 of them by now since I was a kid. Never really understood them ... Perhaps you can share some info on deja vues with me.

It's kinda late (3:18am) .. so I'll read that article in ur sig tomorrow.

I did write the article.
And I do know a lot about that particular topic.

I think, therefore, I am.

(But how do you know I'm not just a computer program responding to you?)

reply to post by yic17


In Lac' ech....I am a reflection of you and you are a reflection of me....welcome to the hall of mirrors....WE R CONCIOUSSNESS TOGETHER