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When I look at the world around me, I see a multitude of reasons to believe in a loving god.
And you seriously think that the diatribe of that supposed event and the gross cruelty, even if supposedly in the past, of the three Abrahamic religions is an indication of a loving God? They are founded on the premise of a being who is cruel and on the suggestion that because a soul has not been introduced to 'God' that it will perish through no fault of it's own.
Very rough phrasing of it, but no, I don't think a soul that hasn't been introduced to god even actually exists - I believe the new covenant in Jeremiah where god promised to write his law on the hearts of the people was not limited to christians, jews, etc. Whether this is something as simple as conscience or deeper/other than that, I'll not worry too much about, but I believe this is where the judgement based on a person's works/deeds comes into play.
As far as the more unpleasant aspects of the bible, I have to believe that they are mitigated by the plan that required them to come to fulfillment - protection of redemptive knowledge, bloodlines, etc. for the benefit of all, as well as expression of divine justice in some cases. We might not be able to completely understand it or justify it, but I'd imagine that's akin to asking the organisms humans experiment on for a broad variety of reasons to comprehend the event.
Originally posted by snowen20
Well, in my opinion which counts for nothing, Talking trash about an all powerful God is like being an internet tough guy. It only works when you are not physically dealing with each other. It's that one day that the internet tough guy meets his opponent in a gas station parking lot and realizes only too late that he is a 350 pound world renown martial arts champion known for beating ass that you have an OH SH** moment.
But of course by then it's too late right?
Oh well, such is life, moving on.
Originally posted by alfa1
After having read that page, sorry, but I'm not guying it.
Dead for 23 hours? This simply by itself would be world class front page news headlines.
Instead, the only witnesses were her mum, a church sister and her dad. All people who are clearly fanatical religious fundamental nutters who hear voices in their heads.
If the event actually happened (and there is no evidence that it actually did), it would be more of a kind of hypnosis than death.
I guess that is one point of view, but if all souls have been 'introduced' to God then why are a large number of people not aware of this?
To illustrate this one must look at the case of a soul that has not been tainted with modern life. Horrible word but take a 'savage', generally depicted as an unrefined uncivilised native.
Not so. This native may be well versed in many different practices that we have forgotten. The rules of his society may be very different from ours. He may have Gods or a God, but not the God of Abraham. Given his circumstances why should he be judged on the terms of our religions? If as you say he was introduced to God it is obvious he has no concept of it.
In my experience some of the best and most 'Christian' people I have known have been non-believers and some of the most vicious and vindictive people have been the most religious.
Matthew 7 21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Personally I believe the more unpleasant aspects are placed there as a control. Do this or else type of thing. This is control by man. If this is the case then the concept of a loving God has been hijacked by the controllers and God in all the three Abrahamic religions is portrayed as a vicious vindictive unforgiving unloving character - rather like his staunchest followers in many cases.
The concept of two armies fighting each other both believing God is on their side is mind boggling!
["When I look at the world around me, I see a multitude of reasons to believe in a loving god."]
You don't get much out, do you?
Quote: ["Amazing complexity."]
ANYTHING starting from even simple combinations of asymmetric polarities will grow into complexity, if there's a dynamic possibility in the system.
Quote: ["Implausibility balanced on the point of needle."]
This pseudo-argument is pure bosh. Any complexity can arrive at a point, where 'implausibility' can emerge. It's just another version than ours.
Quote: ["A beatiful world - that we have not taken care of."]
If estetics is your measure-tape of the value of creation, you can be right. If you include ethics and funtionality, stay away from nature, concentration-camps and politics and religion.
Quote: [" For those who appeal to the unfairness of life - most of that comes from the willful selfishness and cruelty of man, so that can't be aimed at him."]
What blatant non-sense. Unfairness existed long time before man.
Quote: ["As the bible says, the heavens declare his handiwork."]
The bible says something about a lot of things. Often contradicting itself, so there's something for every taste.
Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by bogomil
My own position is irrelevant.
I merely found story interesting and thought that others might find it interesting as well. Funny how just that simple act can suddenly cause people to think I'm attempting to spew propaganda.
As for your comment,....Notice that violence is on both sides of the coin, not religion alone.
As far as my personal beliefs, well I'm a Christian which means I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God.
Do I believe this story?.....Honestly I don't know, it sounds straight forward enough from a "Christian" perspective.
It is definitely a stylized vision. My biggest issue is why would god talk in King James version language when speaking to someone in modern age?
Ultimately this message being brought to us by this girl can only be determined individually. A person believing or not believing this story changes nothing.
You see, I own, live on and used to cultivate my farm since 1974. And any romantic ideas you may have about creation or nature being a great harmonious totality, you'll have taken out of you very quick on a farm. I'm a moral vegetarian, with somewhat ahimsa ideas, and while my farming (as non-invasive as I tried to make it) has made me a mass-murderer, this is still nothing compared to the fights going on in nature itself.
Apart from grass, clover and honey-bees living in symbiosis, there's hardly anything which isn't trying to kill something else out there. The first years here would beat any horror-movie with death-screams every night from small furry thing being killed by bigger hungry things. Eventually you get used to it.
Even the trees in my forest are killing each other as best they can and in different ways, and recently the local 'green fascists' re-introduced wolves here, so our household-pets aren't safe either.
This is REALITY I'm talking about; not some city-dweller's fantasy of back-to-nature fake tao'ism or whatever. And it happens with or without my participation.
You mean everything in nature will be honky-dory as in a Jehovah's wittness' paradise, where lions are vegetarians, IF I FOCUS ON SOMETHING ELSE.
Dude, you have looked too much on the movie 'Avatar' or something similar. Things do as they do without my attention as an important part.
As I said earlier, complexity is a complety expected result of a dynamic asymmetrical set of polarities. And if you start with just three basic components, which can combine, and the combines combine again etc you will after only four generation have a potential result of outcomes exceeding something with more than 100 zeroes after it. And remembering how fast things happened at 'the start' a few generations didn't take long. Give complexity the app. 13-15 billion years of the universe and zillions is a laughable small number.
Given such a potential amount of complexity, the 'chance' of self-organizing complexity (=life) is VERY big. Ofcourse not 'life' as we know it, but 'life' fitting with another set a basic components combining in another way. In this other universe 'life' could be two space-dimensional and three time-dimensional and they would say: "Isn't it fantastic how we and the universe fit together. This surely must be structured from the beginning".
Ofcourse I've seen the beauty in it, but no pipe-dreams based on doctrines or principles will ever take away the obvious brutality of it. Mice being tortured by a cat (cats can be rather sadistic) and inmates in a concentration-camp, neither of whom have the benefits of your grandious theoretical idealism EXPERIENCE the suffering. You seem to believe, you can talk it away, by postulating that changes in human attitudes will change nature's laws.
Sorry, we seem to talking about two different things. You introduced the concept 'unfairness' earlier, which I perhaps misunderstood to be 'meaningless suffering'. It's the last I refer to; more like as in buddhistic terminology. And I won't go for toning down suffering to unpleasantness. That's cosmetic semantics.
Why is nature's laws not fair or unfair, but it is unfair to violate these laws. How did you get to that? I'm a vegetarian, this is violating my nature. I train my cat (otherwise he would use my bed as a toilet). Is it some new-age mish-mash syncretism of tao'ism, christianity etc. you're trying to bring across?
Originally posted by MKultraVideos
reply to post by thegoods724
Yeah I find it hard to believe in a spiritual being who would send people to an eternal never ending fire, because they didn't whole heartly believe in him. I'm a spiritual person, I believe in no organized religion, bhuddism may be the closest I come, but I'm still wouldn't call myself bhuddist. I just like their teachings. I like some of the bible's teachings, and I like some of the Quran's teachings. All religions are beautiful when you see good people practice them. And I also wish we could live in a world where all religions could coexist, because they could.
The way I see it Christ could return and enlighten the masses and encourage peace and love. I can't reconcile his power and what he chooses to do with it, if all he did was come and take a few and let the rest burn. Then I can't call him a savor. That falls in line with more of a rent collector. Their are some amazing people in this world, and there are some very evil ones, and we do live in a world where most of the time you only see the evil ones. Religion doesn't seperate them. There are evil christians and there are good tribal people who never learned a religion.
I don't know what happens when you die, I think it's got more to do with what somebody envisioned about their mortalilty after death. When I die I envision a heavenly place with clouds made of nougat, and all my favorite people, and open bar all the time. So if i did die and go there, then came back would people think that my nougat, and bar like heaven was actually heaven. I hope so cause it's awesome sounding. Good thread, star and flag.