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Ethanol?

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posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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Ethanol's Conspiracy



I work at a family owned gas station in Montana that does NOT use ethanol in our gas currently...there is also a gas station (corporate owned) Town Pump across the street from us that does have ethanol in the gas (up to 10% is what it states, as do other gas stations that use it). I have come to notice a huge difference in gas mileage when I fill up on ethanol polluted gas as compared to the gas at my store. I have filled up my tank which is a 15 gallon tank and the gas mileage plummets and I find myself needing to refuel as soon as a day or 2 later. when compared to filling up on non-ethanol gas my tank doesn't need a refill for as much as 4 to 5 days later depending how much I am driving. This peaked my interest and I've looked up a couple sites trying to figure out the "why this happens"

Is ethanol good for your car?



corn ethanol, switchgrass ethanol, and wood ethanol consume 29%, 45%, and 57% respectively more btu's of fossil-fuel energy in their production, than they produce when they're burned as fuel [.]


BTU's is the North American standard used to describe the heat value (energy content) of fuels...the above quote from the site shows that ethanol mixed gas can reduce the fuel efficiency of your vehicle quite tremendously depending on the amount of ethanol mixture you're getting in your gas (which is uncertain as some company's put more ethanol or less ethanol in their gas) sometimes up to 10% and in my own opinion more than 10% in some cases as you cannot determine the amount of ethanol mixture to the exact percent because it does not completely mix with regular gas.

Who is pushing for Ethanol?




On one side are a pack of war-mongering neo-conservative in the Set America Free Coalition—Frank Gaffney, Daniel Pipes, James Woolsey, Meyrav Wurmser and others straight out of meetings planning regime change throughout the Mideast and Asia.




The common father of this strange alliance is the George Shultz who created the George W. Bush Administration; Shultz's Rocky Mountain Institute with Amory Lovins, like Shultz's Committee on the Present Danger, began promoting the ethanol fraud as a way to attack the nations of the Middle East.




But these neo-cons' major go-ethanol manifesto is signed by a group called the Apollo Energy Alliance, consisting of friends of Al Gore and George Soros, and various "progressive Democrats" and unionists.


Aren't most of these groups and people...the kind of people majorly involved in many other conspiracy's that don't exactly take a turn for our best interests?

corn shortages

Now here we are looking at a a shortage in grain supply's nationwide simply because we are using so much of it to get more and more ethanol...




Rising demand for corn from ethanol producers is pushing U.S. reserves to the lowest point in 15 years, a trend that could lead to higher grain and food prices this year





Corn prices affect most products in supermarkets. Corn is used to feed the cattle, hogs and chickens that fill the meat case, and it is the main ingredient in cereals and soft drinks.


Is Ethanol a conspiracy to raise food prices, make people spend more on gas, and lower our food supply? I think yes it is.

With more and more oil company's going to permanent mixtures of ethanol in gasoline, you have to ask yourself, "Is this what we really want?" "Is this going to have a positive effect on our economy?" I'll answer these questions myself...I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.

Please any input or thoughts on this would be highly respected...maybe we should start getting the word out that ethanol isn't the way to go...I mean, look at Brazil...They embraced ethanol for years but now they're moving away from it for these exact reasons.
edit on 20-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by here4awhile
 


It cant be good because you cant use it in engines that from older vehicles, but if you do the engine cant cope and it will destroy hosing etc.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:09 PM
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a tidbit of info here to go along with the thread that goes to show how this can majorly effect our food supply




Agricultural expert Lester Brown reports, “The grain required to fill an SUV’s 25-gallon tank with ethanol just once will feed one person for a whole year.”


link
edit on 20-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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I am a mechanic and I tell everyone I know, Ethanol is bad. Sure newer vehicles can use it just fine. But if you have a carburetor forget about it. And that IS a huge deal to anyone that uses a lawnmower, weed eater, boats, jetski's, or just about anything with a small engine. It won't ruin them "per say" but it is a lot of work, replacing seals, cleaning gunk, and replacing fuel lines, just because of ethanol fuels.
Yes you do get a reduced mpg but with modern vehicles "flexfuel" and such, the ecu or pcm can tell when it's running on ethanol and set new timing curve and ignition timing to compensate. So you shouldn't notice it as drastically. Older vehicles can't do it, and ethanol has a high octane rating as E85 is 100 octane.



While ethanol's power, acceleration and cruise speed are comparable to those of gasoline, pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113, considerably higher than gasoline, which ranges from 86 to 94. E85 fuel typically has 100-plus octane ratings. Pure ethanol is used in many racing leagues because of these high-performance qualities.



And a little "fun" fact I guess, It made me laugh


Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is produced by the fermentation of biomass. It is 200-proof grain alcohol, the drinkable intoxicating kind. If you know how to ferment beer, you know how to make ethanol. So that people won't drink it, a small amount of gasoline is added in at the end of processing. On a lighter note, an ethanol byproduct, carbon dioxide, creates bubbly fizzes as the gas is pumped into beverages under pressure to create carbonation.



www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us...



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by here4awhile
 


it also gunks up the engine, it is a conspiracy, kinda like the gun powder in cigarette papers, we could run on hydrogen cells and use water for fuel,but u know how evil this capitalist monopoly is these days,ever hear the term they dont build em like they used to? that even goes for alot of capitalist women lol sorry for being off topic its a trickle down effect



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by MoosKept240
 


so do you think that ethanol could cause even more problems in the future? Is this just a way to force more people into buying new cars that are better built for it? I for one can't afford to finance a car like that because they're so overpriced and don't even seem worth the money and I can almost guarantee most people can't either...



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by here4awhile
 


ethanol is the same chemical as whiskey or vodka or the like,itll get ya drunk!!! lol but its not an efficient fuel for vehicles because of the fast burning, its only a good fuel for us humans lol



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:22 PM
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The op really hit the nail on the head, ethonal is subsides like crazy by the govt. something like a 1.23 a gallon the govt pays producers. Thats American style free market right there, without the govt ethenol would fold, its not a viable fuel option.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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it worries me that something that is so closely linked to our food sources is being pushed so hard to be made more and more of...food should not be used for fuel...it should be used for...well...FOOD...



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by here4awhile
 


You can update your current vehicle. They have ethanol safe fuel lines you can buy, and special fuel filters that will help a lot to keep harmful debris out of your fuel system. You will always get poor mpg, unless you have your ecu reprogrammed or have a special chip installed. If you have an old enough car you can manually adjust your timing for the higher octane. I just make it a point to never use ethanol fuel. Where I live most gas stations don't use ethanol, and if they do I don't get gas there.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by MoosKept240
 


well i drive a 92 toyota 4x4 5 speed manual transmission...is it even cost worthy doing these things? I'm sure it would ring me about 1000 bucks or more just to do all of that and pay for the man hours to do so...just to make my mileage still suck?

parts for toyota are expensive...i'm sure u know that though
edit on 20-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by CUJOCREEP
reply to post by here4awhile
 


ethanol is the same chemical as whiskey or vodka or the like,itll get ya drunk!!! lol but its not an efficient fuel for vehicles because of the fast burning, its only a good fuel for us humans lol


Ethanol is not fast burning. Ever see a Top alcohol dragsters timing, 70+ degrees advanced, it burns slow and very cool. The blowers used to frost over till they came up with the high helix "screw" type superchargers. It takes TWICE as much alcohol as fuel to make the same amount of power. So you would need twice the fuel supply to run the same car on ethanol. At 10% you will see a 10% reduction in milage. When will people wake up to the scam???????

We need to march on our capitals and tell the legislatures to STOP THIS BULLCRAP NOW!!! No more ethanol in fuel, the waste water and the CO2 from production are incredibly high for NO GAIN whatsoever!!!
edit on 20-4-2011 by daddio because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 11:02 PM
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The worst part of this isn't that it's making our food prices go up now or that it destroys older engines and such. The worst part is that every tillable acre is being put under the plow to grow more corn for the stuff. Corn is one of the worst plants in that it causes massive amounts of soil erosion, in addition to this nitrogen fertilizer is also used, this has been linked with algae blooms and the subsequent dead zones in the gulf. Also there's no crop rotation because of the value of corn.

Not only is ethanol making food prices go up now but the soil being worn away will eventually cause yields to go down. So not only are we hurting ourselves now but we could be shooting ourselves in the foot for later. The erosion can also damage the water supply by causing soil run off, often containing animal feces into waterways.

This is mostly based off of personal experience since I live in a farming community in Iowa, and my father's job involves him working with farmers, so I here about all of the problems.

Here's a link to a ny times article that says about the same stuff that I did Link

In addition to this ethanol is also rather inefficient, don't get much energy for what's being put in, mind you that his has gotten better so it isn't nearly as big of an issue as what it used to be.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by anilater
 


don't most new age farmers use crop rotation to reduce the effect of soil erosion? That's what I was taught to believe anyways.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:33 PM
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You're going to have to specify what you mean by new age. If you mean organic, then yes, but as far as I'm concerned organic farming is even worse than ethanol. The yields are so low as to make it unsustainable anyways given the demand. On really good soil it isn't that much worse, but on poor to medium the difference can be as high as 30%. That is with corn, I don't know enough about other crops to make comments regarding how it affects yields on those. On average the yield difference is only 8 to 10% less with organic but it also costs more to grow. In effect organic farming also raises food prices.



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 05:46 PM
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I guess I really shouldn't have said anything about anything regarding farming because I literally know next to nothing about it...I took ag 101 classes in high school but I hardly remember most of it lol



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 03:34 PM
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ok so I'm pretty much pi$$ed off today...today I found out that the only oil company not putting ethanol into their gas in this state (exxon) is now taking bids to put ethanol in their gas...which means I have nowhere else to go to get non ethanol gas anymore...this is some real BS that they're pushing this onto so many people...should I start a petition to get them to not do it? I know plenty of people who come here for non ethanol gas for precisely the reasons stated above and I think I could get about 100 signatures by the end of the month

hell...maybe more than that...I just got done talking with at least 5 different customers...they all said they'd sign if I made one
edit on 26-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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Interesting thread and star and flag for sharing the observation and information!

I know that octane is typically an indicator of burn rate, the higher the octane the more of the gas actually explodes in the cylanders driving the pistons and the more powerful the explosion.

Higher octane fuels typically get progressively better gas mileage as it creates less waste in unburnt fuel and creates more power at the same time.

So I would question if the ten percent ethanol mix actually leads to more fuel wastage and less powerful explosions as the gasoline is ignited by the spark plug.

Great topic, thanks for the invite!



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


it's known to clog up your cylinders and I've had a few of my friends actually have to get their cars fixed in a shop because of it...that guy who posted a few up verified this and said he was a mechanic so I can assume he knows what he's talking about...sure it has a high octane rating...but so does jet fuel...do we use that in our basic driving machines? nope

We can run most older vehicles and even newer ones on an octane rating as low as 85.5...which we do here in montana...and the gas mileage isn't effected majorly...I personally use 88 because it's an older vehicle...and it needs a bit higher rating or it chugs a bit more...the ethanol chokes it up pretty badly though
edit on 26-4-2011 by here4awhile because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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I guess the thing that really irks me is that we are all slowly getting our choice in the matter of whether we want to use ethanol or not anymore...as the consumers of the product you would think we should get the choice...Obama is giving incentive to most gas company's to use it which means soon all gas stations will be using it...do we even have the crop yield to do this? and even if we do...how much of that yield is going to be used for fuel when we need it for food instead? what will farmers feed their chickens, pigs, cows, and horses when there is a food shortage because of this? a food shortage in grain would cause us a food shortage in meat as well



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