NJ woman chides NYC smoker, gets stabbed with pen (smoking verses non smoking)

This has nothing to do with smoking vs. nonsmoking. It just so happens, that a cigarette is what ignited this confrontation.

Any person who would stab another person for complaining about their smoking where it's prohibited anyway, is going to stab someone regardless of the provocation... he's just waiting for ignition. If this is the case, this woman could have said something like "Too bad the yanks got second...", and she'd have ended up the same way. He just needed a reason.

I do have one question though, and maybe one of our resident LEO's can help me with. If they're going to charge him with criminal possession of a weapon, would that not make all pens "weapons"? If not, what makes this particular instance of a pen a "weapon", especially one that is apparently regulated in terms of possession? It sounds kind of silly to me, and one of those things that wastes 4 days of a jury's life over semantics. I mean, whether the pen is a weapon is rather irrelevant. What's relevant is that the charge has nothing to do with using a weapon, but rather possession of a weapon. So I'm wondering, if it's not the use of the pen, that makes it a weapon in this case, what does? I'm carrying a pen right now, and would rather do so legally.

Most smokers are rather considerate, and quite aware of anyone around each and every time they light up. Most don't mind doing without a fix until they can do so in such a way that won't bother anyone. Smokers have a right to smoke. Non-smokers have a right not to smoke (or be subjected to the smell of it for that matter). Each must respect the others right, and it's ridiculously easy to do so.

I... am a smoker. I also fully support the current restrictions currently in effect in most public places. The stench of ash trays at entrances to nearly everywhere is not pleasant to me, and butts littering the floor, ashes on seats, thick haze in the air, etc... Frankly, I'm glad it's gone.

However, if you bum a ride from me, then complain when I light up, I'll be testing my new Knight Rider ejection seat. Come to a backyard barbecue at my place, and ask me, nicely or not, to not smoke, and you'll be shown the exit with a puff of smoke and a middle finger.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


In this instance it applies exactly to smokers and non-smokers, regardless of any other similarities and yes that was my point, thanks for summarizing in your own words.

It still doesn't merit issuing fines to bars where almost everyone smokes, which is(was) the vast majority of bars.

Also, there should have been a different and better solution than government involvement. I'm still not convinced it is such a big deal to come to this and think everyone would have been perfectly fine just as we were without all the constant complaining and bickering among one another about something stupid.

That guy was probably going to cause some trouble one way or another that day, though if he could have relaxed and had a smoke for a second without worrying about how everything is becoming illegal maybe he just would have smiled and obliged to her?

reply to post by RSF77


The issue of smoking and non-smoking is of the same breed as the other issues I mentioned, so why should it be treated any differently with how it's being banned more and more?

A person cannot legally smoke marijuana, and at one point a person could not legally consume alcohol, so what reasonable argument is there that a person should be allowed to legally smoke in front of someone who doesn't want to be smoked in front of?

I mean people can smoke marijuana and imbibe other illegal substances within the privacy of their own home, but that doesn't make doing so legal, and if caught that person will be arrested. I honestly don't see why it shouldn't be the same for smoking other than the fact that smoking hasn't yet reached the point of total illegality. But maybe it should go the way of prohibition and the war on drugs and prostitution.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


Because if you ban things more and more eventually you run out of things to ban, and then you are banned.

There is no more culture, no more different types of people, just one monotonous group of banned slaves. That is what you desire for the future?

oh my, that is funny.


Considering the Aus government is taking steps to ban smoking in public places - ALLTOGETHER....... im on the smokers side this time.



There are alot of people - whom like to be... special.... when it comes to cigorette smoke. My younger sister is one of them. If you're anywhere - and she gets a whiff of cigorette smoke - she'll start coughing at the top of her lungs and showing a facial expression of absolute disgust. It does not irritate her lungs - it does not cause her to cough - this is just her doing her "thing" to express her displeasure with smokers and the people smoking them.


I'm not saying that cigorette smoking does not irritate and cause some people to cough - i know it does - just some people are total @#%@#%@# when it comes to being reasonable around this subject - like my sister in the explanation above.


People argue that it pollutes others airspace - and is unwanted - Well... wakeup call for ya - Every breath you're taking is filled with car fumes, and god knows what. Know how you're at work and someone puts on deoderant - and the whole floor ends up coughing?

Smoking is like that - if you're alive , you will encounter it.

You can, however, choose not to hang around with the 4 people standing in a circle smoking. When you're a child growing up in a house with a parent smoker - you cannot.


Smokers are feeling more and more like they're being targeted and picked on. Over here we've witnessed this in regards to smoking:

Retailers must physically cover up their rack of smokes - so people cannot see the boxes

The boxes have been modified - to show gruesome and gory images of people whom took the smoking risk and came off on the bad end.

A pack of 25 Styvessant Red's costs $17.99 with 90% of this high price being tax.

We cannot smoke in the outdoor area's in pub's. Pubs that actualy have a section reserved for smokers are becoming fewer and fewer. Combined with the "3am Lockouts" and with how bouncers are by themselves - good luck stepping outside the Pub to have a fag then duck back in - its not going to happen.

The number of areas marked as "Smoking" zones in outdoor areas are getting smaller and smaller. Buisnesses and Corporations are deliberately making the areas their smokers go as off limits and smoke free. Smokers take smokebreaks. Non-Smokers cannot, and therefor work more than Smokers. If the employer makes it so you must take a 5minute hike to get to an area where it ok to smoke...........


Our government is heavily pushing the banning of smoking entirely from public places. Inside you're homes and in you're Car's (Doesnt matter if you have kids or not - because i can totaly understand if you have kids - smoking is a nono in house and car)\


Is there a slight.... slight slight chance - that this pen-stabbing-smoker - may have just had enough of feeling like the entire world is literaly picking on them because of their choice to smoke?

What is wrong with people? Seriously this guy went to 0-100. This is confusing and sad. I dont understand why people, like that guy, have to lash out like a dog with rabies.

reply to post by RSF77


I don't think that smoking can be considered a legitimate culture. Smoking is just another vice and self-destructive behavior that deteriorates the smother's health as well as the health of the people around the smoker.

If smoking remains legal, then perhaps marijuana, prostitution, and consuming other illegal substances should become legal as well? Is that agreeable to you?

reply to post by onehuman


Yes I'm a smoker!
I am now considered to be some sort social leper!
When I grew up everyone smoked. And it was done just about anywhere. It was hard to find a non smoker in those days.
And there used to be areas inside where smokers could get away and contain the smoke to one area.
Now I am forced to step outside when the weather is below zero just to grab a butt. People have more concern for dogs left outside in severe weather than their fellow humans.
I have a choice not to go out you would say, but I don't impose my desires on you and am I willing to be respectfull of your so called bubble. But you don't return that respect for my lifestyle.
God forgive you allow us a small room where we could smoke.
I always try to keep the smoke away from someone that it bothers...I have no problem with that.
And now some people have tried to push laws that would ban smoking in your own house or outside your own house.
Non smokers that go out of there way to judge smokers are modern day Nazi's!
They know whats best for me? What ordasity!
They say it takes 10 to 15 years off your life.....Have you seen the lifestyle of some 80 year olds? The majority of them can't even take care of themselves. Or are on so much medicine they can't even travel short distances and their lifestyle consist of just exsisting!
Being a burden on my children and society is not what I want for my golden years.
You can have those years!
The one's that say your draining the health care system....We are paying for it by way of the extreme taxes that are being inforced on cigarettes. And the care of the elderly that are living longer because of your self rightous health craze so you can live longer is draining it just as bad or worse.
Where are you gonna get the huge loss of tax revenue if you destroy the tobbaco companys? Also the loss of jobs?
You ban them but don't make it illeagal to sell or buy them. You want it both ways.You take the money but damn us!
If you smoke in a rental car or a hotel they can charge you $250 and up because apparently some sort of hazmat team needs to come in and strip down the walls to the studs. To conceal the odor.
It's this simple....Smoking rooms and non smoking rooms. Smoking car non smoking car. Smoking pubs non smoking pubs. Go to the one of your choice.
If you feel you need to abolish all smoking and that you know whats better for someone else, and you feel its your duty to help me because you think I'm incapable of making the right decision. Get yourself checked out! You could be suffering from a massive ego Control Issue!

Originally posted by arbitrarygeneraiist
reply to post by RSF77

 

I don't think that smoking can be considered a legitimate culture. Smoking is just another vice and self-destructive behavior that deteriorates the smother's health as well as the health of the people around the smoker.

Everything we do and are is culture. You don't view it this way though, you have your own set of things that are legitimate in your(our) world huh?

If smoking remains legal, then perhaps marijuana, prostitution, and consuming other illegal substances should become legal as well? Is that agreeable to you?

This is off topic, what's your point? Get to it.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist

If smoking remains legal, then perhaps marijuana, prostitution, and consuming other illegal substances should become legal as well? Is that agreeable to you?






Yes....it all sounds great!
I mean it!
No hardcore drugs of course.
Legalize it and tax it!
You make your choices ...I'll make mine.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


Sure if you dont mind people robbing and stealing for their addiction. Smoking for the vast majority doesnt bring those side effects but If you must group them together bring it.

reply to post by RSF77


You're right. What is considered cultural is subjective. Some people might believe that sacraficing another human life to be cultural, yet in civilized society it is considered murder. Some people might consider smoking marijuana and imbibing other illegal substances as a part of a ritual prominent in shamanism, which itself is considered cultural. So maybe I should have asked specifically what you define a legitimate culture to be.

To me a smoker who smokes a cigarette to calm his or her nerves isn't really a culture as much as it is an addictive behavior meant to lessen anxiety.

But basically my point is that smoking is an addictive behavior that isn't healthy for the smoker and it isn't healthy for the people around the smoker, so why should smoking and imbibing alcohol be the exception to the rule of illegal addictive behaviors that are unhealthy and self-destructive?

Why is a smoker's choice to smoke a cigarette to lessen his/her anxiety, or an alcoholic's choice to get completely wasted in order to escape his/her miserable reality more important than my theoretical desire to toke a joint with my hippy counter-culture buddies, snort some coc aine with my scarred Cuban friend, and then trip on some acid in order to experience a spiritual walkabout on the astral realm with my shaman friends?

I'm basically curious to know why when other supposedly self-destructive and unhealthy vices and substances are illegal, that smoking should not be? Same goes with alcohol for that matter. I don't really understand what sets cigarettes and alcohol apart from the other substances and vices.

Imo they should all be legal or they should be illegal. I'm trying to understand the logic that says one is okay but the other isn't.

Originally posted by HabaneroPepper

Secondly, I think there are other variables we need to consider? Were there no smoking signs present? ( I dont live there so i dont know)

Another thing to consider, is if there aren't any posted signs and laws infringing on smoking anyhow, the other passengers have no right to interfere with a man and his smoke.

On a subway train????

Only an asshole smokes inside a train with little ventilation underground.

reply to post by regor77


People don't have the money to supply their addictions. The other addictions I mentioned are not legal as well. If smoking was illegal and people couldn't afford them (as is pretty much going to be the case soon with all the taxes imposed on cigarettes), then who's to say people won't commit acts of thievery in order to supply their smoking addiction? Hell, same can be said for video games as well and legal medication.

You're telling me that people don't rob and steal to pay for cigarettes as it stands already? Any addiction that a person cannot supply for themselves they will rob and steal. Illegal substances don't somehow automatically force a person to rob and steal because of that illegal substance alone. It's the circumstances in which the person is incapable of feeding their addiction that leads to them stealing and robbing.

Originally posted by arbitrarygeneraiist
reply to post by RSF77

 

I don't think that smoking can be considered a legitimate culture. Smoking is just another vice and self-destructive behavior that deteriorates the smother's health as well as the health of the people around the smoker.

Alcohol kills many times more innocent, non-drinkers than smoking kills non-smokers, do you crusade against alcohol too?

Originally posted by arbitrarygeneraiist
If smoking remains legal, then perhaps marijuana, prostitution, and consuming other illegal substances should become legal as well? Is that agreeable to you?

Well, it can't be argued away that marijuana is much safer for the user and those around the user than alcohol, and alcohol is legal, which you don't seem to take issue with, so it starting to look like you're arguing with yourself.

Yes. In short...

Look, if your neighbor smokes a joint, before he goes to bed with his hooker, does this affect you? Not in the least. Let your neighbor do his thing, he'll let you do yours. And by the way, this thread is not a debate on whether or not tobacco should be criminalized.

Edit to add:

I recant all comments I made about your position on alcohol, and second your motion that the double standards be ironed out. The problem is that to criminalize alcohol and tobacco, the fight has to be taken to a huge, established industry, with insiders like Pete Coors in politics. Secondly, to legalize Cannabis especially, the government must admit to its subjects that it has outright lied to them since it's criminalization. This is why we see states adopting legislation allowing access to it, while the Feds remain steadfast in it's classification as a schedule one substance, even more dangerous according to them, than heroin and crack, even though the all-time, throughout recorded history death toll related directly to Cannabis remains a steady zero.

lets all keep in mind it was a woman from jersey - she could say hello in a way to piss most people off.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


I totally agree with your point and if tobacco was banned entirely the black market would explode with illegal sales just as marijuana did. However most would just illegally grow it themselves or in my case I would probably just start buying pot since everything in the world was soon destined to be illegal soon anyway. Many without knowledge and means would steal for their habit but over a short period of time and a few jail terms it would take care of itself in my opinion.

reply to post by Jefferton
Yes, Wyoming.

reply to post by Unit541


Have you read the OP? It is about smoking being banned. The OP was actually looking for a compromise. So that made me think about other illegal substances and vices, and why smoking is somehow the exception to the rule. If it's being banned more and more, anybody can see the eventual downward spiral to criminalizing cigarettes and tobacco.

But I don't crusade against banning either alcohol or smoking. I'm just debating and trying to learn through debating, that's all.

And actually, alcohol doesn't kill innocent non-drinkers. It's the people who drink and drive or perform other dumb actions while under the influence of alcohol who kill and injure other innocent non-drinkers. Where as smoking directly has harmful effects against non-smokers. If a person who drinks does so in moderation then they wouldn't completely succumb to the impairment effects of alcohol.

Other than that, I agree with everything you've said. Part of my posts are meant to try and draw out and make apparent the inherent hypocrisy and stupidity in specific things that are illegal. I had on my mind how the government actually does lie about why cannabis is illegal, and I believe that the first stage to understanding something is to become aware of the subject and the issues surrounding it.

If people become aware, then perhaps they will react accordingly.

Smoking shouldn't be illegal. Drinking shouldn't be illegal. Eating junk food shouldn't be illegal. Marijuana shouldn't be illegal. I'm still iffy on other illegal substances, because some of them can be really powerful.

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


Because an addiction has nothing to do with a substance, there is no "addiction" flag on any substance, it is a problem with those people, it is unethical to take away one persons rights because of anothers mistake. The only people who are addicted to anything are mostly living in areas that the same government that made it illegal neglects to support it properly through its decisions, so common sense would seem to say there might be a connection there and the answer to all this "addiction" people are talking about might lie in improving those peoples quality of life, instead of fining and incarcerating them.

People are addicted to a wide manner of things, some common and acceptable to society, but may be even more dangerous. So lets go ahead and ban skydiving too, smoking, gambling (oh nevermind it just went), bicycling, driving and anything we can't we'll slap extensive paper and licensing on it to produce more money, that's all that is happening to cigarettes. Nobody's going to quit blowing smoke in your face and people may even do it more now, and in fact might stab you.

Originally posted by arbitrarygeneraiist

 

Why is a smoker's choice to smoke a cigarette to lessen his/her anxiety, or an alcoholic's choice to get completely wasted in order to escape his/her miserable reality more important than my theoretical desire to toke a joint with my hippy counter-culture buddies, snort some coc aine with my scarred Cuban friend, and then trip on some acid in order to experience a spiritual walkabout on the astral realm with my shaman friends?

What does all this ramble mean? Is this a question or what?

Your opinion is more dangerous on our American freedoms and lives than any cigarette ever will be. There is no logic that makes one thing okay and one thing bad, this is all based on peoples opinions. I tend to think the opinions that overlap others freedoms are unwelcome and should not be allowed, and only the restrictions that are done with honest good intentions are the ones we should accept, they usually aren't as invasive as the state shutting down drinking establishments.