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Is Lucifer Actually God?

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posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by loagun
 


I going to go with no.

I'd love to any actual source, document, or other information you can offer up as to how & why you came to this conclusion since such information can be provided to support the counter-claim, but appears to me it just stems from what you think your opinion on 'god' should be.

FeraVerto was correct, though, in the bible satan (ha-satan in hebrew - on a side note we always mispronounce this as it's actually saw-tawn) is 'the adversary' or 'the accuser'. He's not ever presented as evil until you get into some of the epistles, perhaps, and very definitely the book of revelation - otherwise he functions as god's prosecuting attorney, inducing people to give into temptation, show their insufficiency, etc. Back in the day, he even used to return to heaven for divine board meetings (read Job) to report on how things were going and what was up.

"Lucifer" was a reference to the arrogant king of Tyre that also broke down into a description of what some think is Satan, but may actually be nothing more than some flowery and not-really-applicable descriptions of the king, or otherwise refer to one of the consistent nasties like Asmodeus, etc.

Aside from wanting a genie in a bottle who will give you a nice happy life (which has worked out well for the Rothschilds, Duponts, etc. - at the expense of pretty much EVERYONE else, as people can never have enough wealth or control), which role he'll be happy to fulfill if he can make you condemn yourself as per his job description, there's not really any reason to view or desire him as god.

I'll stick with the one that offers life everlasting in splendor and glory, personally - not just termporal power for the 100 years or so we have floating around on this rock.

Be well!


edit on 4/20/2011 by Praetorius because: Typos. ALWAYS typos.




posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 04:50 PM
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How's everyone?

I'm new to ATS and am chopping at the bit to post some questions and comments.
Speaking from a christian biblical standpoint, where the translators chose to use the term "lucifer" in
Isaiah 14:12, it is viewed in two different ideologies. One standpoint looks at "lucifer" as simply being another word that means, 'phosphoro' light bearer or morning star referencing the planet venus. From the other, "lucifer" is an actual entity who existed as an angel who fell from grace for his rebellion. And then there is the idea that "lucifer" was in reference to speaking of the king of tyre. Some have even tried to reason that lucifer is synonymous with Jesus Christ, eventhough Christ is mentioned as the "Bright and Morning Star" not just "Morning Star"

I am under the presumption that "lucifer" is all those things, but God he is not. To my understanding, without religioius context, he would not actually exist. I could be wrong thoug
edit on 20-4-2011 by 7Jewels because: correction

edit on 20-4-2011 by 7Jewels because: correction



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 05:24 PM
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I think you're right...Lucifer is God and God is Lucifer as they are the exact same thing: Aliens.

edit on 20-4-2011 by dude69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 


There are actually quite a few 1st century Christian documents that support the claim of the OP as I stated earlier. Of course you likely have never heard their full story as they were deemed heretical by the Catholic church and subsequently disappeared until they were rediscovered in 1945 (I believe).



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by Q:1984A:1776
 


A lot of the gnostic and nag hammadi texts say a lot of other things as well.

A few of them even get quite silly. There's good reason why most of them weren't canonized, but I don't wholly discount all of them, either. Must prove all things and hold fast that which is true.

Offhand, though, I don't remember reading much about the demiurge (god of the bible being the evil god) in these texts - granted, I haven't spent too much time with them. Usually it was just much stranger and esoteric views on things mostly mentioned in the bible otherwise.

Any chance you could direct me to the specific books you're talking about so I can check this out? Thanks.
Steve



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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stories of the gods are stories of the heavens.

the literal heavens that is.

lucifer the lightbringer is venus, who usually escorts the sun at sunrise or sundown...

also see how the earth and venus do a pentagram around the sun.

lets face it people, the sun is the god of the ancient cultures, it is the provider and fuel to our lives.

this whole drama just started when a couple thousand years ago someone decided to name the sun as joe, and since then people now worship joe the guy who invented th sun


 
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posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by infojunkie2
reply to post by loagun
 


You ask a question that concerns God, then you don't want any Christians to answer, I can tell you that unless one has a relationship with God,he has no idea of who God is, therefore you are not really asking a question, you are merely looking for some one to agree with you.


No I believe what he's looking for is someone to THINK with him. Shouldn't be asking much really



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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Wow a lot of great opinions! Thank you to everyone that replied - even the Christian
)


There were some questions as to how I have come to this idea and I will post quite a few sources as how I have come to this idea. Right now I am not home, but should be home in a bit, and then I will breakout the bookmarks and get a post going.

I however just wanted to say again thanks for all the opinions. Each one was great to read. I'll be back in a bit!!


***ADD***

Before then I will just add this to ponder 'God created Man in his Image", and then if look at all the evidence before the Bible was even printed pointing to divine intervention.... crossbreeding.... hybrids... Fallen Angels.... wouldn't that make our 'God' .......?

I am not saying Lucifer is the ultimate God either as I believe there is some higher power, I mean there just has to be - whatever dimension or form 'it' may be in, but rather he may be the God we have been lead to believe is 'God'.....


edit on 20-4-2011 by loagun because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Q:1984A:1776
 


A lot of the gnostic and nag hammadi texts say a lot of other things as well.

A few of them even get quite silly. There's good reason why most of them weren't canonized, but I don't wholly discount all of them, either. Must prove all things and hold fast that which is true.

Offhand, though, I don't remember reading much about the demiurge (god of the bible being the evil god) in these texts - granted, I haven't spent too much time with them. Usually it was just much stranger and esoteric views on things mostly mentioned in the bible otherwise.

Any chance you could direct me to the specific books you're talking about so I can check this out? Thanks.
Steve

If you truly have interest in the subject, I'd recommend a book by Elaine Pagels called The Gnostic Gospels. If one were to type "elaine pagels gnostic gospels filestube" into google, I'm sure they could save the time of going to the library to read the book.
Elaine did a pretty good job of piecing together the convoluted mess that is early Gnostic Christianity.

P.S. I found it rather amusing that someone who believes that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree", can comment on how silly Gnosticism can get.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:30 PM
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After one reads through the Bible, Tanakh, or Qur'an, what is laid before us? The establishment of moral opposites, good and evil, and a set of rules that should govern our actions.

Now if you read through, for example, the Satanic Bible, the message is different - act how you will, act upon your desires. My O.T.O. texts read, "Do what thou whilt". Then there is the Tao and non-duality and zazzen practice (Zen). Buddhism describes "good" and "evil" as constructs of the mind and that we must rid ourselves of ignorance to become enlightened; Lucifer is the bringer of illumination ("light-bringer").

The messages from the "satanic/luciferian" texts I've read are strikingly similar to my Eastern texts, while the Big Three (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) preach the opposite. Coincidence?



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Q:1984A:1776
 


Thanks, I have that bookmarked and downloaded the kindle sample for it, will check it out. She doesn't invoke Elizabeth Clare Prophet, does she?


P.S. I found it rather amusing that someone who believes that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree", can comment on how silly Gnosticism can get.


Hah, very nice. If we weren't on the verge of being able to do pretty almost all of that now ourselves, it would almost seem entirely unplausible.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 08:20 PM
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Threads like this always make me think of the series of books called His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman.

Anyone interested in this subject really should read those books, they are incredibly well researched, well written and entertaining.

They don't really get into the metaphysical stuff until the second book though.

I won't go into spoilers, but it does have a lot to do with this thread.

edit on 20-4-2011 by fedeykin because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by loagun
 


Yes. And vice versa God is Lucifer.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by AxlJones
 


Was Jericho divinely inspired genocide? That is certainly what we would call it today.
edit on 20-4-2011 by 0zzymand0s because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:08 PM
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what if we view heaven and hell as states of mind on earth, potentially possesable by a breathing,thinking free willed human being... Lets imagine that the natural process of life, work,eat,sleep, grow is in tune with the way of god, we can imagine that if god is a word used to define the universe and all things and ways of it, then the way god has presented its structures on our planet and within us is through this process and rule of life growth. To be on this confident path of life would be to spend your days in a blissfull mind (heaven) one with god. Perhaps Lucifer on his quest for questioning reality and worth of life, and aim to discover god's knowledge and power, was tossed from a place of mental well being, or fallen from the state of heaven, and so after dwelling in this place for long and eventually realizing the mistakes he has made and the futility of his rebellion of life, he returned to the people as the bearer of great wisdom, wisdom of sacredness of gods rule and life, This is how I see the similarity between lucifer and jesus and how they may be the same figure, maybe even an archtypal pattern to conforming and coming to realize the ways of good , in order for jesus to have become all knowledgeable in the ways of life and god, he first went through a period of rebellion and doubt. Perhaps this is why the powerful men in powerful positions have over time done all they can do to unlock and implement the secrets of the universe, they know the pattern and life rules of god's structured way, what jesus preached, and they implement it over themselves and their loved ones, but where their worship of lucifer and satan and negetivity comes in, they are aware they are not doing all they can to help their global family, they would rather gain access to god's knowledge and power. then do the most good possible.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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You wouldn't believe the sht I've been going through up here in canada and after the most friggin bizarre amazing experience ever where it was like jsut knowing things after discovering a bunch of interesting things about reality it swifty turned to a nightmare when I started seeing how friggin evil and deceptive the white people of this area are. As if I would choose to stay in this filth based country after what I've seen. I know what I saw and what I learned and what was going on to a certain extent with my evil scum bag lying sister piece of trash, her little air head kid who admitted to hacking me as well etc. After it was clear a bunch of sht was going down and these slime bags used me for something it was like watching reality just click and everyone either put on the greatest bs act of all time or something changed with reality. Even my son seemed like a totally different person which depressed the fk out of me. All I gotta say is there's a giant friggin 5 pointed star mapped out on this western continent with extremely disturbing accuracy which I only noticed after a crap load of other interesting things mapped out. As if I saw it once somethig was determined to convince me that because I didn't flee this hell hole that I was to become as SET or the devil or whatever. I wish I had left MONTHS ago but sadly didn't trust anyone as everyone I looked and lived around for so very long seemed to be a total bag of lying filth. I ain't saying I'm some saint as I fell quite far into being weird while oblivious to why reality was such a friggin nightmare for me. I always said for years that it was like something guiding me around from one miserable situation to another and then I saw just how true that all was.

There's so much stuff I saw during my so called enlightenment about reality and crucifixtion with orion that I just about went totally nuts and I damn near did after the summer 6/16 event when it was like something retarded and gay got inside my mind for several months and went off driving me friggin nuts to the point where I couldn't even do basic math any longer. So much for not being able to unscramble scrambled eggs though....

Anyways, so here I am sitting on the link after finding that golden butterfly pendant which oddly went along with the eat sht and die ritual stuff the mother thing busted out against me with her golden buttery statue. How this thing can claim to love me after all I've watched them do just makes me sick. I'm done with it all. Even if they're good just trying to scare the ever loving sht out of me, which I highly doubt, I still wouldn't try to believe the bs. 1+1=2 and when you can clearly see a horde of deceptive filth lying and using you for a very long time and how it's all been like a big joke game to mock that I couldn't see I am just thorougly disgusted. Not only with myself for not seeing it all sooner but with how much of my life has spiraled into weirdness while alone in the corner for so long. EVERYTHING these things have done suggest there is something with my sister angela and josh trying to play swap out with myself and my son. Right down to constantly acting all fk'd up and constantly asking what products I'd get myself or my kid so she could run and get them for him then me getting constant "gifts" of things were just a turn off but I used anyways because they were so called acts of kindness. YA right! I can see now how even the model of printers and such I was given were part of the game with the "X" 1150, 220, 9700 the passport office addresses etc game. And all the egyptian stuff with the stars and timing was just mental. I wish now that I had never sent Joshua, my sisters son, that message with all the timing stuff to point him in the direction. I think now though I may have friggin doomed them all as it's revealing now how it's not what it once appeared to be and something not so pleasant that apparently, according to what I just read, have something to do with Samuel, Lilith, the blind dragon, benimmerin or something stupid etc. Oh and the wonder race of people that are to be covered with hair lol... That stuff better be a friggn joke because how it echoes the insane events of my life and what's been going on and the suggestive crap that all these deceptive fkers are in some way good decent people makes me sick. These people are not about love or caring. You don't do this kind of thing to someone their whole lives just because YOU provoked them endless into anger and hate. It's like trying to push over the edge then punishing them for getting mad. It's the greatest goof of all time.

I'm so torn between wtf is the truth that all I see now is that everyone around here is just fk'd up and something extrremely twisted has been going on for a very long time and that chinese swastika is part of a code in english anyways and that the people who set our calanders etc have changed things up so much it's like a giant tangled mess of lies. In the end I don't care about the left or right stuff. I care about the truth that is apparently about me getting totally shafted for these deceptive pigs gutter trash. There is no way I'm related to these people whatever they are. To see my so called mother even turn around and start acting it all up like so called good decent people like even little former prostitute to 90 year old men turn dike because of her physical and spiritual uglyness makes me sick. And the whole drivel suggesting that that thing is out there playing the role of whatever while I sit around here being totally messed up by the demonic scum of the earth american and candian trash etc... It's just sickening. I should've stopped listening to these failures a long time ago. It's led me to nothing but misery and endless suffering. And the worst is like watching how they all start playing hte mimic game and then saynig the things I'm thinking of doing as if they can hear my thoughts or someone is messingwith time travel and they know what I'm going to do next. What is that about? To make it look like I'm taking orders from these total pig gutter trash. This family, the slime my brother is hitched too and all these pig liars deserve the worst.

Even when I try to be friendly to others it's still just bs. All the less fortuante looking people look at me all sad while the pretty pretty just grin. It's just fk'd up! Whatever you have all done to me I hope the math behind it all is revealed by someone one day and these things pay for whatever it is they do. And to you corrupt pig cops helping these scum, you coke nostril ring thigns etc. I hope you get the worst too and may this province be nuked into oblivion with all you scum of hte earth deviant trash.

I can't believe I tried to be happy again and not care about what others did. ie the gays etc. Now I know why god hated them so much. Even when you try to get along they still keep stabbing in the back.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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Anyone else heard about Tomb U under Saint Peters in the "scavi"? It is the Tomb of Lucifer and there is a picture in red of a winged being on a horse outside the entrance. The official line is that the tomb is blocked.
Some say it belongs to a priest who was on the outs with the vatican named Lucifer, I highly doubt it, if that was the case he certainly would not have a tomb under St Peters.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Read your post and thought of the teaching behind the Prodigal Son, that state of cycles within cycles of leaving, looking back from the farthest distance, and then making ones way back and arriving home again.

The analogies go on and on but they tell the same story about life and its patterns, the orbit of the earth around the sun, our birth, childhood. adulthood, old age and death etc.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 03:16 AM
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I find Lucifer quite interesting because I'm not so sure that the portrayal of his role is revealed very clearly for deliberate reasons. I suspect he is the link bringing the fire in the promordial light needed to initiate the transference of life from the spiritual and unmanifest into the manifest, material world existing from the earth througout the universe.

The biblical story came along with the specific aim of destroying Paganism and replacing it withmonotheism, People were supposed to go from worshipping Pantheons of Gods and thier Goddesses down to one lone single, Creator God. They didn't make a clean break and remnants have remained and intrigued us. Its from pantheism that we link a male God to Venus and somewhat cloud the issue by pairing a venerated goddess to a fallen angel. Then to totally discredit and obscure relenant esoteric beliefs from that era, we turn the planet Saturn into the devil satan and banish Venus into the morning / evening star marring the view of the Pagans on the Goddess and the actual qualities she represented to them and the ancient astrological meaning of the Powers hehind the planets.

Biblically we start with the void and the breath and leap straight into full material creation completed in 6 days, which is why the genesis version is blatantly wrong eg you can't evolve plant life on earth before you create the sun. so immediately you see the blind ignorance of the religious scribe trying to create a new religion but using old religion material.

From what I have read and also learned from on here the bible set out to vastly alter the Pagan mind which celebrated man 's enjoyment and experience of life which he equated to the grace of the Gods and Goddesses, , the bible changed all that and made man a debtor of a physical/superhuman God. and it was left with a number of problems and compromises it can't explain yet can't hide.

I know I read somewhere that in creation we have the Mother, Father and Son all as one and asleep for a long period of time when the void exists. The Mother and Father breath and wake and the son comes into be-ing - here is where I think Jesus and Lucifer could get combined because the son leaves the parents to begin materialisation from non-being to being etc. I am sure I have read that this Be-ing was Lucifer, the Bringer of the Primordial light which started off creation. Now this aligns with the genesis version if one accepts that Lucifer is a creating being sent from the breath, it also verifies that he was the brightest of the angels, although I think he was higher than the agents because he was the flame of life that started the creation into matter.

The creation came from the mind of God whom has never manifested in matter so is not a physical be-ing as monotheism promotes and claims akin to.

According to Theosophy there are legions of angels all charged with different operations in the creation and then other beings of such diversity which doesn't really apply to Lucifer's role. The Eloham and the other El's were the angels through which God created and manifested material world out of the spiritual one and were in the Garden of Eden, hence the plural Gods in Eden and the difference between man and Angel and the trees of knowledge and life.

Going back to the biblical and Pagan overlap, what came out of this was a Priesthood, which had taken over from the Priestesses. This group of men knew Kings would come and go but it was sustainable and, a good living.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by DarylHamblett
Lucifer is the Devil


No I am NOT


Depends were you look, some say its Venus, the morning star.

Some say he/it is misunderstood - Me

Some believe he is ENKI from sumeria

All i know is what we THINK we know is not correct, therefore I am open to anything
edit on 21/4/11 by Lucifer84 because: Spelling

edit on 21/4/11 by Lucifer84 because: (no reason given)



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