This is wrong all the way. Tazer is meant to be an alternative for deadly force. It was never meant to be a pain compliance tool for masochist to use.
West Australian Police - Video of Brutality!!!, page 3
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reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 03:30 PM by spikey
reply to post by Havick007
If you don't mind Havick007 mate, i'm just going to comment on the first video you posted (because i'm two parts to the wind), and you know what? I see what you're saying, and seeing..but while i think the Captain doing the tasering didn't do a particularly good job, i think he did what he did out of a genuine concern for the man being tasered, as strange as that sounds, having looked at what was on the video!
He also had a duty of care to the man, and his fellows present. Which his actions show, and generally all that happened during the clip shows plainly limited harm was utmost in his mind..in my mind (you know)..
I've seen this type of scenario close up..i've directly witnessed the riot gear clad men and women, collectively rushing a cell or similar small room, looking for all the world like some S&M inspired Conga that got serious!
And you know what?
Even the real, pain in the backside, constantly trouble and chaos type of person that i have seen this technique used on, was never in danger of attack with intent of malice or injury. Yeah, i know how that sounds, considering what? 8 armoured people to 1 guy in his undies? taking the piss with the taser?
Yeah right! Pull the other one mate!
But seriously, my wife worked on a secure mental lock up ward and this type of thing went on a lot. Perhaps not armour everywhere, but the principle is the same...get the patient subdued and quick.
They harm themselves, sometimes to the point of permanent damage or even death. Their well-being and survival onto continuance of their lives is paramount, so while it looks barbaric, and it does..i've no doubt that, in *this case* at least, it was done for the right reasons...but the taser was overused and used inappropriately.
While the general use of a taser is to pacify..they can also be used vindictively..and used as an instrument of torture basically. He used the taser too much IMO, because at times i felt he tasered not just to pacify, as much as to back up his authoritative position, having verbally committed himself by warning the guy he was going to taser him again! and again.
Don't let the numbers fool you..when a human being is in a 'certain frame of mind', you *need* that amount of bodies.
If you don't mind Havick007 mate, i'm just going to comment on the first video you posted (because i'm two parts to the wind), and you know what? I see what you're saying, and seeing..but while i think the Captain doing the tasering didn't do a particularly good job, i think he did what he did out of a genuine concern for the man being tasered, as strange as that sounds, having looked at what was on the video!
He also had a duty of care to the man, and his fellows present. Which his actions show, and generally all that happened during the clip shows plainly limited harm was utmost in his mind..in my mind (you know)..
I've seen this type of scenario close up..i've directly witnessed the riot gear clad men and women, collectively rushing a cell or similar small room, looking for all the world like some S&M inspired Conga that got serious!
And you know what?
Even the real, pain in the backside, constantly trouble and chaos type of person that i have seen this technique used on, was never in danger of attack with intent of malice or injury. Yeah, i know how that sounds, considering what? 8 armoured people to 1 guy in his undies? taking the piss with the taser?
Yeah right! Pull the other one mate!
But seriously, my wife worked on a secure mental lock up ward and this type of thing went on a lot. Perhaps not armour everywhere, but the principle is the same...get the patient subdued and quick.
They harm themselves, sometimes to the point of permanent damage or even death. Their well-being and survival onto continuance of their lives is paramount, so while it looks barbaric, and it does..i've no doubt that, in *this case* at least, it was done for the right reasons...but the taser was overused and used inappropriately.
While the general use of a taser is to pacify..they can also be used vindictively..and used as an instrument of torture basically. He used the taser too much IMO, because at times i felt he tasered not just to pacify, as much as to back up his authoritative position, having verbally committed himself by warning the guy he was going to taser him again! and again.
Don't let the numbers fool you..when a human being is in a 'certain frame of mind', you *need* that amount of bodies.
reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 03:55 PM by Iwinder
Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by spikey
Was the exessive use of force necesary though?
We will never know, we were not there and we have no idea what this fellow did to deserve such a collection of armored guards.
I believe that they have better things to do, rather than fitting up 6-10 people just to get him out of the cell.
This tells me that more than likely that they are dealing with a really bad apple here.
But like I said unless we get all the facts we must assume and assume I will that this guy is trouble.
Regards, Iwinder
reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 04:02 PM by spikey
Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by spikey
Was the exessive use of force necesary though?
That's the heart of it really isn't it mate..easy for us to look back in technicoloured, rewindable/pausable hindsight i suppose, and another when your down there in the snot and # trying desperately to deal with the situation, so everyone goes home with the least injuries possible. Including the guy.
I do think the Captain went overboard with the taser, based on the clip i saw...as there seems to me, to be elements of ego overbearing duty of care for the guy having problems. On the other hand there were a lot of considerations in the Captains mind. 'The guys' welfare and survival in that situation is the whole reason for armoured ingress in the first place..to protect him from himself.
Let's be honest..they weren't concerned about the décor, so they must have been concerned for him! There are bod cops...absobloodylutely there are bad cops...and frighteningly, it seems the majority that are 'good' cops, won't lift a finger to take out the bad elements from within their ranks...they have to spring clean their houses, but i think the Captain needs re-educating in the acceptable and appropriate use of his 'stun gun' taser..but i reckon he did what he thought was in everyone's interest...including the guy.
reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 05:46 PM by phatpackage
reply to post by Havick007
Despite what many people think the vast majority of police in the world are not "Dirty Harry" and do not live to kill. The idea of Tazers is great in that it is a far better (better for the person and police conscience) option than shooting someone dead with a gun. When police only had guns most would only use it as last resort and would many times take a bit of a beating before they used the gun because they wanted to be sure it was the right thing to do. This was especially true when there were height, weight and fitness requirements to enter the force. They were just not as scared as they are now as there is only a "Community" level fitness requirement.
The problem with tazers is that the police are so well trained to use them they know that they will not kill the person if applied correctly and therefore wrongly use them as a "First" resort instead of a last resort like a gun. They take the easy way out to resolve a situation whereas in the past they had to think about it more. This means there needs to be greater Police education and physical training to stop this and ensure proper application of the device.
Despite what many people think the vast majority of police in the world are not "Dirty Harry" and do not live to kill. The idea of Tazers is great in that it is a far better (better for the person and police conscience) option than shooting someone dead with a gun. When police only had guns most would only use it as last resort and would many times take a bit of a beating before they used the gun because they wanted to be sure it was the right thing to do. This was especially true when there were height, weight and fitness requirements to enter the force. They were just not as scared as they are now as there is only a "Community" level fitness requirement.
The problem with tazers is that the police are so well trained to use them they know that they will not kill the person if applied correctly and therefore wrongly use them as a "First" resort instead of a last resort like a gun. They take the easy way out to resolve a situation whereas in the past they had to think about it more. This means there needs to be greater Police education and physical training to stop this and ensure proper application of the device.
edit on 20-4-2011 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 06:05 PM by Havick007
reply to post by Bearack
I can say i have experianced a simulated closed room gas emergency. TG to be percise with 3-5 scs without a gask mask breathing the agent in. Once you put the mask on you need to purge it and exhale as much as possible to clean the mask. Rhen you can breath it properly through it.
It's harder than it sounds though, i have seen people vomit in their masks... This kind if thikng is just basic training vbut nesseasary sadly.. War and conflkict should always be avoided.
I can say i have experianced a simulated closed room gas emergency. TG to be percise with 3-5 scs without a gask mask breathing the agent in. Once you put the mask on you need to purge it and exhale as much as possible to clean the mask. Rhen you can breath it properly through it.
It's harder than it sounds though, i have seen people vomit in their masks... This kind if thikng is just basic training vbut nesseasary sadly.. War and conflkict should always be avoided.
reply posted on 20-4-2011 @ 06:07 PM by bussoboy
reply to post by Havick007
Workplace safety laws are being abused by the goverment and police to enble them to take the view that using tazers instead of physcial restraint is safer for police. This means that as time goes on we may see the day when being tazered becomes a routine practice when being arrested or being stopped and serached on the street.
Who knows, if they get away with this, we may even see the day when if you get pulled up on the road for a licence check you have to get out of the car, get on the ground and agree to be tazered before being "interviewed' by the police at the raodside. WHo knows it may even extend to your own home should they come to see you for any reason.
Way back in the 70's I listened to talk back radio discussing whether or not police should be issued with guns and I thought yea right as soon as that happens it wont take long for the second cop to dropped off the gun will become the second cop. This is actally what has happened.
Now the gun has given way to the tazer and what ever technology comes after that, the commissioner will able to send one officer out to break up a party thats got out of hand and he she will be able to fear for their personal safety as soon as they arrive and so use the lazer/skin burner weapon on a crowd as a mtter of course even before he/she even gets out of the car.
Workplace safety laws are being abused by the goverment and police to enble them to take the view that using tazers instead of physcial restraint is safer for police. This means that as time goes on we may see the day when being tazered becomes a routine practice when being arrested or being stopped and serached on the street.
Who knows, if they get away with this, we may even see the day when if you get pulled up on the road for a licence check you have to get out of the car, get on the ground and agree to be tazered before being "interviewed' by the police at the raodside. WHo knows it may even extend to your own home should they come to see you for any reason.
Way back in the 70's I listened to talk back radio discussing whether or not police should be issued with guns and I thought yea right as soon as that happens it wont take long for the second cop to dropped off the gun will become the second cop. This is actally what has happened.
Now the gun has given way to the tazer and what ever technology comes after that, the commissioner will able to send one officer out to break up a party thats got out of hand and he she will be able to fear for their personal safety as soon as they arrive and so use the lazer/skin burner weapon on a crowd as a mtter of course even before he/she even gets out of the car.
reply posted on 22-4-2011 @ 06:34 AM by Havick007
reply to post by Bearack
You never replied about the gas chamber training??
I wouldnt call it a gas chamber as such though... just simluated training... I experianced it in the Navy along with flood control and fire fighting, using OCABA's or (SCBA) and ELSRAD(Emergency Life Saving Breathing Apparutus) etc.
Although i have never experianced a taser, in my younger teen days as a prank we used to open the panel on street lights with an Allen Key and remove fuses. One night i touched the wrong part of the internal components and was blown back about 10 metres... i dont know how high the voltage was.. but i know how it feels.
You never replied about the gas chamber training??
I wouldnt call it a gas chamber as such though... just simluated training... I experianced it in the Navy along with flood control and fire fighting, using OCABA's or (SCBA) and ELSRAD(Emergency Life Saving Breathing Apparutus) etc.
Although i have never experianced a taser, in my younger teen days as a prank we used to open the panel on street lights with an Allen Key and remove fuses. One night i touched the wrong part of the internal components and was blown back about 10 metres... i dont know how high the voltage was.. but i know how it feels.
edit on 22-4-2011 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 22-4-2011 @ 06:43 AM by Havick007
reply to post by Havick007
I would just like to offer an apology in regard to an ill-mannered post of mine.
At time we can become too passionate about topics but that is never an excuse for bad mannered behaviour.
I would just like to offer an apology in regard to an ill-mannered post of mine.
At time we can become too passionate about topics but that is never an excuse for bad mannered behaviour.
reply posted on 24-4-2011 @ 11:48 AM by spikey
Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by Bearack
I can say i have experianced a simulated closed room gas emergency. TG to be percise with 3-5 scs without a gask mask breathing the agent in. Once you put the mask on you need to purge it and exhale as much as possible to clean the mask. Rhen you can breath it properly through it.
It's harder than it sounds though, i have seen people vomit in their masks... This kind if thikng is just basic training vbut nesseasary sadly.. War and conflkict should always be avoided.
Did this myself many moons ago, but was using CS gas.
Basically, same as you. Run around inside a small closed room..press ups, sit ups, star jumps...sweating like a pig....CS gas released, respirator on. GAS, GAS, GAS...purge gas from respirator, exhale three sharp breaths and breathe normally.
More exercise (because CS attacks moisture, sweating made your whole body get attacked by the gas), then remove mask, state name rank and service number...if you can through the streaming eyes, and enormous amounts of snot pouring out of my nose!
Feels like you're going to suffocate...and the itching/burning/irritation is a nightmare!
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