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Are you on the fence with Christianity?

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posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 09:57 AM
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This purpose of this thread is for those who are on the fence or believers in Christianity to discuss the wisdom found in the Bible.

If you want to participate in this thread, I ask that you just keep your mind open to the possibility that the Bible is true and is the Word of God. The existance of God is assumed in this thread, and I will not answer any questions that assume the contrary.

Yes, I am here to preach to myself and others!

Let's go!
edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


Because of the way you worded the question I think you are going to get overwhelmed with a group of people you were not necessarily targeting. You can't be on the fence with Christianity. It is either all in or all out. You can do it wrong. Many people do.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:09 AM
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That is fine, because if only one person is saved by what they read here, that is more than enough.

I completely understand what you mean about the nature of the wording of the title. This thread is for those that truly WANT to believe, but are having a hard time doing so.

I was trying to participate in another thread, "Creator or Chance Accident: I Will PROVE This To You."
Yet faith and God is not something that can be proved with physical evidence, and my efforts there were less than fruitful.
edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by graphuto
That is fine, because if only one person is saved by what they read here, that is more than enough.

I completely understand what you mean about the nature of the wording of the title. This thread is for those that truly WANT to believe, but are having a hard time doing so.

I was trying to participate in another thread, "Creator or Chance Accident: I Will PROVE This To You."
Yet faith and God is not something that can be proved with physical evidence, and my efforts there were less than fruitful.
edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)


[SNIP]

All these recent self righteous threads trying to "SAVE" us ATS members is getting on my nerves. Those who agree with you will particapate, those who don't believe will argue with you. There is no in between. You can't save even one of us, that is up to your God!

Why don't you make a thread like; "Why I believe in God"? Or, "What the Bible means to me"? Or, How Jesus changed my life.? Then your participants will not be trolls lured in by your agenda, but true seekers.
edit on 20-4-2011 by windword because: s


Mod Edit:
Removed unnecessary name-calling.
edit on 21-4-2011 by Gemwolf because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


That is fine, because if only one person is saved by what they read here, that is more than enough.

So you are saying that if no one is saved by this thread, then that would be enough, since one would be more than enough?

If you are asking others to give up their beliefs and embrace yours, would you be willing to give up part of your beliefs to embrace theirs?



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:30 AM
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This thread is directed to those who truly WANT to believe. I'm not trying to force anyone to believe anything. Unless you have something to add in regards to the OP, you aren't welcome here. That was pretty clearly stated in the OP.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 

This thread is directed to those who truly WANT to believe. I'm not trying to force anyone to believe anything. Unless you have something to add in regards to the OP, you aren't welcome here. That was pretty clearly stated in the OP.



Who are you asking to leave? Me? Which of us is not welcome in your thread?



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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edit on 20-4-2011 by TerryMcGuire because: Dbl post



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


OK, as a fence sitting Christian I have a question. Now don't misunderstand me here, because I certainly believe in God, and I am not on the fence in regards to the existence of God.

Lets talk about the bible, because that is what I'm on the fence about. I have a very simple question... How am I supposed to have faith and know that the bible hasn't been altered or manipulated by power hungry control freaks in the past? At the Council of Nicea, who or what gave the participants the authority to decide on what should be in the bible and what shouldn't be in the bible, because the participants were in fact fallible and imperfect men. The participants in the council of Nicea were elitist religious figures, so it seems to me that their agenda more than likely was to hide certain facts in order to perpetuate a lie and continue the control and manipulation for centuries to come.

Whenever I ask this question the person answering it always quotes the bible, but it is the integrity of bible that I am questioning, so that doesn't work. Good luck...



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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I'm sorry to say that I absolutely can't answer your question without quoting scripture.

This purpose of this thread is for those who are on the fence or believers in Christianity to discuss the wisdom found in the Bible.

edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


Maybe have them read Saint Augustine's Confessions. It didn't work for me, but it might work for someone else.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by graphuto
I'm sorry to say that I absolutely can't answer your question without quoting scripture.

This purpose of this thread is for those who are on the fence or believers in Christianity to discuss the wisdom found in the Bible.

edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)


Well then go ahead and quote scripture... you may make more sense than the previous people that I have posed the same question to.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by graphuto
 



Originally posted by graphuto
This purpose of this thread is for those who are on the fence or believers in Christianity to discuss the wisdom found in the Bible.


You know, there is some wisdom in the Bible. Maybe I should go through and re-re-re-reread the Bible and redact it to only leave the good passages.



If you want to participate in this thread, I ask that you just keep your mind open to the possibility that the Bible is true and is the Word of God.


Okay. Can I ask why this book is then full of scientific and historical errors, is internally contradictory, has a full range of genocidal deeds praised, endorses slavery, and endorses the oppression of women if it is the word of a deity?



The existance of God is assumed in this thread, and I will not answer any questions that assume the contrary.

Yes, I am here to preach to myself and others!


Meaning you'll conveniently ignore any challenges to the Bible that you can't handle.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 12:57 PM
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Madness, to be honest I left the other thread because of you. Could you please just go away and leave me alone?

Quote me the scriptures that you're talking about instead of just paraphrasing what you think. Most of what you're talking about deals in the Old Testament, and while there are bits of wisdom to be gleaned from it, it's my understanding that the New Testament is kind of like our new "pact" with God, so to speak, through Jesus. Blood sacrafice is no longer necessary because of Jesus.

But seriously, please respect the thread and don't come in to troll it.
edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by graphuto
Madness, to be honest I left the other thread because of you. Could you please just go away and leave me alone?


Why do you want him to leave? I vehemently disagree with a lot of what Madness says, but he brings up some great points. If you are going to start a thread like this then be prepared to answer those types of questions. How can you answer my questions in regards to what scripture means, and furthermore how can I as a person seeking biblical answers give any credit to you or your answers to my questions if you can't defend your position against an atheistic point of view?



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 01:22 PM
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Well, as you have not responded to either of my replies, I can assume that you do not want me here. But I will pose one more question before I leave.

When Elizabeth's kinswoman, Mary, came to visit her during Elizabeth's pregnancy, Mary stayed with her and Zack. Now it is my understanding that cousins did this, staying with the pregnant woman through the pregnancy and helping out during and after the birth of the child, in this case John (the Baptist). But interestingly according to Luke Mary for some reason left the house of Zack and Liz just before the baby's birth. To me this is strange. Why not stay a few more weeks and help out her cousin?

You know what I think? I think that Zachariah and Mary kinda did the thing and that Elizabeth kicked her out of her home, "mess with MY husband will ya?" This would have been kept hush hush but would explain "the virgin birth" and it would also make John the Baptist and Jesus brothers.

Ok, I'll go away now unless I find a message from you or something.



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 01:24 PM
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His points regard the flesh/man. Mine regard the Spirit/God. It's meaningless to try and argue with or defend my points when all of his faith is in man, and mine is in God.



2 Peter 3:16

As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.


1 Corinthians 1:21

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


edit on 20-4-2011 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by graphuto
 


OK, as a fence sitting Christian I have a question. Now don't misunderstand me here, because I certainly believe in God, and I am not on the fence in regards to the existence of God.

Lets talk about the bible, because that is what I'm on the fence about. I have a very simple question... How am I supposed to have faith and know that the bible hasn't been altered or manipulated by power hungry control freaks in the past? At the Council of Nicea, who or what gave the participants the authority to decide on what should be in the bible and what shouldn't be in the bible, because the participants were in fact fallible and imperfect men. The participants in the council of Nicea were elitist religious figures, so it seems to me that their agenda more than likely was to hide certain facts in order to perpetuate a lie and continue the control and manipulation for centuries to come.

Whenever I ask this question the person answering it always quotes the bible, but it is the integrity of bible that I am questioning, so that doesn't work. Good luck...


Why don't try reading the scripture that was left out of the bible...

Regardless the messages are still there in the bible. Its just a shame most people don't understand them




posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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Seemingly it's necessary to qualify yourself to join on this exclusive thread. As the OP-author already has expressed attitudes of dismissing people, not on grounds of transgressing OP-'rules', but on grounds of personal disagreement, I would like to see if I pass the needle's eye. Maybe I'll be one of the elected.

I'm certainly sitting on the fence concerning the interpretation of the bible, as any statement of it being 'true' in any specific way is the cause of intense debate between the 34.000 christianities. So I repeat: My basis is a quest of INTERPRETATION.

And while I'm not by character a religious person (though I admit the possible existence of paranormal or trans-mundane existence), in the sense of ritualism, worshipping or praying, I am interested in a possible 'beyond' and a possible 'god' (for whom I also would like some clarification first, as there are different interpretations also on this point).

I include much rational, scientific and logic reasoning in what's hopefully my path towards greater knowledge and understanding. The OP doesn't state precisely, if intellectual approaches are forbidden too.

Thus being intellectual in my methodology, I do have some intellectual sympathy for the intellectual part of gnosticism, which (as may be remembered) actually for a period claimed for themselves, that they were one of the 34.000 christianities (some other christianities mostly killed them off, as they were 'heretic', but that should be irrelevant just for now). Even today we have a revival of self-defined gnostic-christians, so my intellectual involment in the intellectual part of gnostic-christianity should bring me in the warmth of this thread.

Some, but not all, of the gnostics claimed, that the character called 'Jahveh' in the bible is a possibly trans-mundane creator-god, but that he's not the the ultimate god. They furthermore claimed, that as a creator he botched the creation-job rather badly, which is an alternative explanation to the more common 'original sin' doctrine, where the 'blame' lies with mankind, not with an incompetent 'god'.

Gnostic-christians thus claim, that the pauline interpretation of the existential problem of 'suffering' is a falsification, and that what Jesus REALLY talked about is a 'real' God beyond the demi-urge (Jahveh). This would explain Jahveh's schizoid, sociopathic nature, the bible's inconsistencies and contradictions with contemporary rational knowledge.

Please notice, that I'm sitting on the fence on this one, open for the possibility of a 'real' god, but that I would like to have the methodology for interpretation explained to me first, as I can't just blindly accept any of the 34.000 christian models without more deep-going information.

It's not a big part of my partipation on ATS to preach, but maybe I'll give it a shot later on, parallel to the OP-author. It could be fun and an experience to try it.


edit on 20-4-2011 by bogomil because: spelling



posted on Apr, 20 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


As with the bible there are things in gnostic scripture that are not quite "in line" with what God is... The idea that creation was "botched" is completely rediculous considering how completely perfect the universe is.

People need to learn to distingish between what is a story and what is a lesson. Even the "stories" have lessons behind them...mostly.

We've spoke about the only absolute before... So again if you read to find the absolute you can find the lessons in every religious text regardless of who wrote them.




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