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The creation of The State Of Palestine

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posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by backinblack
 


Wake me up when you have something that actually have substance to it.


Wake me up when you actually debate a point rather than your usual dismissals without collaborating facts.

edit on 21-4-2011 by backinblack because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 03:51 AM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


I need to collaborate Oslo accords, suicide bombers, second intifada, camp David etc' ?
Man, you are in a more dire state than I thought.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by backinblack
 


I need to collaborate Oslo accords, suicide bombers, second intifada, camp David etc' ?
Man, you are in a more dire state than I thought.


Mate, I don't mind debating but you don't seem to know how..
Waste of time when you just fob people off with comments like,

No, your analogies are bad and not very intelligent.
But hey, feel free to give more excuses for the Palestinians. They certainly benefit greatly from it.


You do not state reasons why you feel my analogy was bad...
That's an opinion, not a factual debate...



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 



The flaws of the Oslo Accords

"The United States has been a terrible 'sponsor' of the peace process. It has succumbed to Israeli pressure on everything, abandoning the principle of land for peace (no U.N. Resolution says anything about returning a tiny percentage, as opposed to all of the land Israel seized in 1967), pushing the lifeless Palestinian leadership into deeper and deeper holes to suit Netanyahu's preposterous demands.

"The fact is that Palestinians are dramatically worse off than they were before the Oslo process began. Their annual income is less than half of what it was in 1992; they are unable to travel from place to place; more of their land has been taken than ever before; more settlements exist; and Jerusalem is practically lost...

www.wrmea.com...

Yep, Oslo was great, for Israelis...



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 


I read your comment and then I read it again and I was suprised with your use of the Oslo Peace Accords. Just recently I made a post in another thread about the Oslo Peace Accords which will blow your whole "Israel was offering massive concesions argument" out of the water. So here it is

"Palestine has negoitiated and Arafat offered huge consetions to Israel at the Oslo Peace accords
Link
Israel appeared to be rather stuborn, however it was a complicated negotiation due to the internal political structure within Palestine. I just want to clear up this misconception that Israel is willing to negotiate a "fair peace" for both parties. It seems as if it wants a "fair peace" for Israel only.
Here is a transcript of a debate between former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami and Norman Finklestein.
Link - Democracy Now
Here are some of the concesions offered at the failed Oslo Peace Accords- This is a quote from Ben Ami.


In fact, when he was negotiating in Oslo with us, an official Palestinian delegation was negotiating with an official Israeli delegation in Washington, and the official Palestinian delegation was asking the right things from the viewpoint of the Palestinians—self-determination, right of return, end of occupation, all the necessary arguments—whereas Arafat in Oslo reached an agreement that didn’t even mention the right of self-determination for the Palestinians, doesn’t even mention the need of the Israelis to put an end to settlements. If the Israelis, after Oslo, continued expansion of settlements, they were violating the spirit of Oslo, not the letter of Oslo. There is nothing in the Oslo agreement that says that Israelis cannot build settlements. So this was the cheap agreement that Arafat sold, precisely because he wanted to come back to the territories and control the politics of Palestine.

Here is a video of that same debate. it is part 1 of the whole debate, you can watch the rest in your own time, it takes around 50 minutes.

I also want to highlight that the Oslo Peace Accords were complicated due to the political structure in Palestine. The reason such huge concessions were offered on behalf of Palestine are entailed here.


SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Well, the Oslo peace process was an agreement—it started as an agreement between two unequal partners. Arafat conceived Oslo as a way, not necessarily to reach a settlement, but more importantly to him at that particular moment, in order to come back to the territories and control the politics of the Palestinian family. Don’t forget that the Intifada, to which Oslo brought an end, started independently of the P.L.O. leadership, and he saw how he was losing control of the destiny of the Palestinians. His only way to get back to the territories was through an agreement with Israel. So in Oslo, he made enormous concessions.

The whole point of this post is to show that Israel actually is rather stuborn and unfair in negoitiating a peace. It seems as if they will only be satisfied once all of Palestine has been anexed."

Here is the thread where I originally posted that comment: www.abovetopsecret.com...
I have warned you so many times, you must keep missing my posts, but I have warned you so many times to not, I repeat do not post false accusations, false information, disinformation or misconceptions here on ATS. Your who argument, that Israel is wiling to negoitiate massive concesions is entirely false. I have just blown your central premise out of the water, as Shlomo Ben Ami the former Israeli foreign minister even admits that Palestine/Arafat was offering huge concesions.
edit on 21-4-2011 by SpeachM1litant because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:27 AM
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Gravitational, now that I have blown your contention that Israel offered fair and large concesions at the Oslo peace accords, can you please retract your statement and create another statement in replacement apologising for openly offering the wonderful community here at ATS, false statements. I believe it is the fair thing to do.
edit on 21-4-2011 by SpeachM1litant because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 04:30 AM
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Israel's demise is a welcome sign that the evil NWO Anglo-American world hegemony is dying. People always make much of the Jewish factor in Israel but I think of it more like the "Anglo-American clubhouse" in the middle east. Its a little island of stability so the big Western corporations and other types can get the o-i-l.

It's going to be sweet watching that facistic state get taken down a notch or three. It is one of the most karmically polluted nations on this sad earth and that's saying a lot. As far as I'm concerned its an abomination every bit as much as Zinbabwe or North Korea.

All of these awful states will eventually be regurgitated and puked up by the world because they are evil and unnatural. Israel's moral darkness is coming home to roost. As is the dark Karma of other nations (BABYLON AMERICA THE SCARLET WHORE anyone?)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 05:08 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 



The Israeli government was very clear that the freeze covered only new projects.


That's terrible.

Sure the big chiefs might understand that but how do you think that looks to the people on both sides?

Settlers: Hah, we keep on building even though we said we wouldn't.
Palestinian: Why are they building when they said they wouldn't?

Now you tell me, what does that change about the situation? Nada. So those incentives then really aren't incentives at all now are they?

Besides that, who oversees what "new" and what "old" projects are? I could draw a house and put a date on it saying I planned to build this house 30 years ago. Who is going to check? Oh right, no one.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 05:31 AM
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reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 


I see, your logic tells you that Israel is stubborn, therefore it's perfectly legitimate for the Palestinians to intentionally kill more Jewish civilians. You seem to forget that with all of Arafat's “concessions”, he refused to sign the agreements, until Mubarak threatened him:
"Sign already, you dog.”
You deliberately refrained from addressing Camp David II and the Palestinian terrorism that followed. You refrained from addressing the terror attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilians for years before 2005 and the years that followed in which Israel destroyed every Jewish home in there.
You lie (elsewhere) that it was Israel was the one to break the cease-fire, while the rocket fire and IED attacks continued. Also,what you call cease-fire is translated by Hamas as Hudna, which means to a delay to reorganize.
You also forget to mention the concessions made by Olmert's government that led to – once again – nothing. And you call Israel stubborn.

You have blown no contention other than what is in your mind.
I refer you to my very last short respond to you in page 1.

Keep trying.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 05:33 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by Partygirl
 



dp. delete.
edit on 21-4-2011 by gravitational because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Partygirl
 



And you registered today just for that display of divine wisdom?


No, this was not my primary reason for registering but I did happen to see this topic at the top of the Recent Posts page and figured I'd dive right in.

I am opinionated, granted. But I will try to be polite. And also defferential to those with more experience here, such as yourself. So I mean no disrespect to anyone here. But I do have strong feelings on the topic.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by Partygirl
 


Don't feed the trolls..

Longer membership here doesn't equate to experience or logic..
Some are VERY one sided..
God's chosen can do no wrong...



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 


Please sir refrain from your use of ad-hominem attacks. I will adress all your aligations against me right now.
Here is your first


I see, your logic tells you that Israel is stubborn, therefore it's perfectly legitimate for the Palestinians to intentionally kill more Jewish civilians.

- The fact is, I never said such a thing. I condemn the desperate terrorist activities that Hamas is engaged in just as much as the next man. This is another lie you have posted about me and it is an attempt at a character assasination.


You seem to forget that with all of Arafat's “concessions”, he refused to sign the agreements, until Mubarak threatened him:

-Firstly what relavance does the fact that he only signed the accords due to pressure from Egypt have, he still signed.
-Secoundly, however this is false. Arafat came to the negotiation willing to offer huge concesions to Israel to maintain his political control over Palestine. I adressed this in my comment, it is in the links provided to Democracy Now and Shlomo Ben Ami the former Israeli foreign minister under Barack even said this.


You deliberately refrained from addressing Camp David II and the Palestinian terrorism that followed. You refrained from addressing the terror attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilians for years before 2005 and the years that followed in which Israel destroyed every Jewish home in there.

-I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the Oslo Peace Accords, where you made a fruadulent claim that Israel offered huge concesions when infact it was the opposite. Nice attempt to de-rail the debate. We are discussing the Oslo Peace Accords which happened in 1993 not 2005. However I will gladly adress these issues if you care to elaborate on them.


You lie (elsewhere) that it was Israel was the one to break the cease-fire, while the rocket fire and IED attacks continued. Also,what you call cease-fire is translated by Hamas as Hudna, which means to a delay to reorganize.

-Yes this is true, I posted it on another thread. So it is not relevant to this argument.
-However, I stand by my claim saying Israel broke the 5 month ceasefire first by marching into Gaza and killing 6 Hamas militants.
-Hamas then retaliated with the rocket fire after Israel broke the ceasefire.

IDF leaves Gaza after op, 6 gunmen killed
IDF troops have completed their operation in the Gaza Strip, and are currently preparing to leave the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory. Two soldiers were moderately wounded and four others sustained light injuries from a mortar shell, they were evacuated to the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba for treatment.

For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night in a bid to collapse a tunnel located 250 meters (273 yards) from the border – and which terror groups intended to use for kidnapping Israeli soldiers.

Palestinian sources reported that six gunmen were killed in the clashes that ensued during the operation, and that several others, including a female bystander were injured.

Here is a debate between Martin Indyk ad Norman Finkelstein which adresses the breaking of the ceasefire. It is long and consists of multiple parts but it is worth watching

Here is a transcript which is part of that debate:

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, I think the problem of Mr. Indyk’s presentation is he constantly reverses cause and effect. Just as he said a moment ago that it was Hamas which broke the ceasefire, although he well knows it was Israel that broke the ceasefire on November 4th, he now reverses cause and effect as to how the present impasse came about. In January 2006, as he writes in his book, Hamas came to power in a free and fair election. I think those are his words. He then claims on your program and he claims in his book that Hamas committed a “putsch”—his word—in order to eliminate the Palestinian Authority. And as I’m sure Mr. Indyk well knows and as was documented in the April 2008 issue of Vanity Fair by the writer David Rose, basing himself on internal US documents, it was the United States in cahoots with the Palestinian Authority and Israel which were attempting a putsch on Hamas, and Hamas preempted the putsch. That, too, is no longer debatable or no longer a controversial claim. Now, Mr. Indyk says that Hamas is reluctant or unclear about whether it wants to rule in Gaza. The issue is not whether it wants to rule in Gaza; the issue is can it rule in Gaza if Israel maintains a blockade and prevents economic activity among the Palestinians. The blockade, incidentally, was implemented before Hamas came to power. The blockade doesn’t even have anything to do with Hamas. The blockade came to—there were Americans who were sent over, in particular James Wolfensohn, to try to break the blockade after Israel redeployed its troops in Gaza.


AMY GOODMAN: The former World Bank president.


NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Correct. The problem all along has been that Israel doesn’t want Gaza to develop, and Israel doesn’t want to resolve diplomatically the conflict. Mr. Indyk well knows that both the leadership in Damascus and the leadership in the Gaza have repeatedly made statements they’re willing to settle the conflict in the June 1967 border. The record is fairly clear. In fact, it’s unambiguously clear.


Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled "Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question.” And every year the vote is the same: it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989—in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side.


We have the Arab League, all twenty-two members of the Arab League, favoring a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We have the Palestinian Authority favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel, backed by the United States. That’s the problem.

-Please get your facts straight, it was Israel who broke the ceasefire, which resulted in retaliations(which I condemn) from Hamas which involved the firing of rockets into Southern Israel.


You also forget to mention the concessions made by Olmert's government that led to – once again – nothing. And you call Israel stubborn.

-Were we talking about this? No. We were talking about the Oslo Peace Accords.


You have blown no contention other than what is in your mind.

-In regards to the Oslo Peace Accords, I have. Of course you will never conceed to this becuase you want to save face.

Now I would like to take sometime to adress your post as a whole. You have clearly attempted an ad-hominem attack. You have attempted a character assasination and once again you offered false evidence, miconceptions and disinformation. You have made an alligation against me, calling me a liar(in regards to the ceasefire) which is false. However I have called you a fraud and a liar myself in many(at least 5) other threads. So I won't make a big deal in regards to that. You have also tried to de-rail the debate and divert the subject. You have found yourself on the backfoot and have avioded adressing any of my claims about the concessions that Arafat offered at the Oslo Peace Accords. You haven't offered a argument with substance, evidence, reliable sources or proof. You have just made outlandish claims. Good try at trying to firstly demonize me as an individual however it has failed as I do not agree with the actions of Hamas. I am simply stating the facts according to the record. I would apreciate if you would retract any false evidence, any false alliagations and any false alligations and character assasinations which were directed at me. Thank you.
edit on 21-4-2011 by SpeachM1litant because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 


What “ huge concessions “ are you babbling about ?
Arafat, a mess murderer kicked out Egypt, then Jordan, Then Lebanon, was offered a chance to come to his beloved “Palestine” (despite him being an Egyptian) with his armed gang and was offered a chance to have an independent state in Gaza and west bank, but all he did was starting another cycle of bloodshed after another.
What the hell are talking about? Concessions? There was never even a country called Palestine. It was Trans- Jordan in the east and Egypt in the south.
If you were following the conflict daily and hourly, you would know that the rocket fire never ever stopped. If all you do is digging stories from Palestinian sources, than yeah, Hamas never broke the cease fire.
Please oh please don't tell me you bring ol' Norman as your reliable source. I have stopped listening to that trash scum of the earth years ago. If you want me to watch any of your sources, try to bring more credible ones. I know it's hard for you, but I'm sure you are up to it.



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 


What “ huge concessions “ are you babbling about ?
Arafat, a mess murderer kicked out Egypt, then Jordan, Then Lebanon, was offered a chance to come to his beloved “Palestine” (despite him being an Egyptian) with his armed gang and was offered a chance to have an independent state in Gaza and west bank, but all he did was starting another cycle of bloodshed after another.
What the hell are talking about? Concessions? There was never even a country called Palestine. It was Trans- Jordan in the east and Egypt in the south.
If you were following the conflict daily and hourly, you would know that the rocket fire never ever stopped. If all you do is digging stories from Palestinian sources, than yeah, Hamas never broke the cease fire.
Please oh please don't tell me you bring ol' Norman as your reliable source. I have stopped listening to that trash scum of the earth years ago. If you want me to watch any of your sources, try to bring more credible ones. I know it's hard for you, but I'm sure you are up to it.


You keep screaming for sources.
Please show yours for the above or they are irrelevant..



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by gravitational
 



What “ huge concessions “ are you babbling about ?

The ones that Arafat offered according to Shlomo Ben Ami the Israeli foreign minister under the Barak government that negotiated with Arafat. I have offered many sources, with Shlomo Ben Ami being my main one. If you read the Demorcacy Now transcript with Shlomo Ben Ami you would see the concessions which I am discussing.
You are also forgetting a major point, the Palestine papers which Al Jazeera reported on.


The extent of the Authority’s proposed concessions in East Jerusalem — allowing Israel to annex virtually all its hitherto-illegal settlements in the city as part of what Palestinian negotiators called “the biggest Yerushalayim in history” — major concessions on Palestinians’ right of return (said to be detailed in coming papers) and the almost humiliating efforts of the Palestinian leadership to build a relationship with the Israelis and Americans will place the Palestinian Authority in a deeply embarrassing position in the eyes of Palestinians.

The fact that its historic concessions were still not enough to move Israel to even offer, in the words of Palestinian negotiators, a “figleaf”, or move the Americans who alternately acted as hapless bystanders and guarantors of Israeli intransigence, will empower extremists like Hamas who have consistently refused to entertain the idea of negotiations. Now Hamas has proof that its position is justified.

Source
Of course you will cal Al Jazeera a propoganda front, however you fail to realise that the Palestine Papers were a leak of confidential documents, diplomatic corerespondences and memos in regards to the Israel-Palestine peace negotiations.

Over the last several months, Al Jazeera has been given unhindered access to the largest-ever leak of confidential documents related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There are nearly 1,700 files, thousands of pages of diplomatic correspondence detailing the inner workings of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. These documents – memos, e-mails, maps, minutes from private meetings, accounts of high level exchanges, strategy papers and even power point presentations – date from 1999 to 2010.

Source
I don't understand how you can still be confused when the Israeli foreign minister under Barak who was negotiating with Arafat even admitted to it himself.



Arafat, a mess murderer kicked out Egypt, then Jordan, Then Lebanon, was offered a chance to come to his beloved “Palestine” (despite him being an Egyptian) with his armed gang and was offered a chance to have an independent state in Gaza and west bank, but all he did was starting another cycle of bloodshed after another.

So now you are trying to demonize Arafat(who I didn't like) in order to support your claim that he is stuborn and un-negotiable when he infact offered major concession(go read my previous posts and read the Shlomo Ben Ami democracy now transcript) in the attempt to maintain power in Palestine.


What the hell are talking about? Concessions? There was never even a country called Palestine. It was Trans- Jordan in the east and Egypt in the south.

Here are the concesion I am talking about

# the Palestinian Authority’s willingness to concede illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem, and to be “creative” about the status of the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount;
# the compromises the Palestinian Authority was prepared to make on refugees and the right of return;
# details of the PA’s security cooperation with Israel;

Source
Read into your History, after World War II Palestine was split into two. One being Israel which recieved 51% of the land. The other being Palestine. Since then Israel has taken over most of the Palestinian land agreed in that treaty. You are right before that Palestine was under British rule. Why does it justify the displacement of Palestinians just becuase they didn't have official state-hood rights prior to World War II? What is the point and how is this relevant to the Oslo Peace Accords which we are discussing? We are not discussing the creation of the Israeli or Palestinian state, we aren't even discussing the displacement of civillians(which I could use, as you say to further my agenda). Stop trying to de-rail the debate just becuase your arguments are being proven to be false.


If you were following the conflict daily and hourly, you would know that the rocket fire never ever stopped. If all you do is digging stories from Palestinian sources, than yeah, Hamas never broke the cease fire.

I haven't cited a single Palestinian news source/source in this thread.
I cited the following
-Democracy Now
-Shlomo Ben Ami
-Norman Finkelstein
-Amy Goodman
-Al Jazeera
-Crikey.com
I haven't cited a single Palestinian intellectual or a single Palestinian news source. Your argument here is also false, you are just trying to paint me as a propoganda front when I offer non-Palestinian news sources.


Please oh please don't tell me you bring ol' Norman as your reliable source. I have stopped listening to that trash scum of the earth years ago. If you want me to watch any of your sources, try to bring more credible ones. I know it's hard for you, but I'm sure you are up to it.

It is sad to me to see that you have lowered yourself to attacking Norman Finkelstein on a personal level. We can discuss his character in another thread. Stop trying to de-rail the debate.
The fact is that Hamas didn't break the cease-fire, it was Israel. Search it yourself. Search the dates when the rockets were fired prior to the intifada and search the dates when the IDF killed 6 militants while the cease-fire was in place. You will see that I am right. I would link you to more sources myself but I know you would disregard them as propoganda and lies.

Now in regards to your argument and your attack upon my sources of information. As you have clearly seen I have been heavy on the news quoting and external texts. You have diregarded all my sources even Shlomo Ben Ami the former Israeli foreign minister under Barak. If Ben Ami isn't a credible source then who is?
I would also like to outline the fact that you offer no sources, no verifications of the lies and disinformation you post, nothing. I provide you with support to my contention and you "shoot it down"(in your mind) with no credible sources. You think anyone here on ATS(other than the stupid) will believe you without providing proof?
Due to this fact, all your arguments are irrelevant as you do not provide any support for your contention.
edit on 21-4-2011 by SpeachM1litant because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-4-2011 by SpeachM1litant because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 10:57 AM
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reply to post by SpeachM1litant
 


Well proto, Arafat was a mess murderer. I don't need to demonize him. His actions did that for himself. But you sound surprised. I wonder why.
Jerusalem was never EVER an Arab capital, Jordanian capital let alone a Palestinian capital.
So what concessions?
“Look, I want to make peace with you, but you got to give me half of Washington.”
What? But Washington was never yours.
“Ah you're right.”
See what a big concession I just made? Hip hip hurray.

After all, it was Arafat the mess murderer that began the 2nd intifada in 2000. Need Pictures?



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by gem_man
 


The so called Palestinians have been offered statehood so many times I cannot # them. They will not accept a Palestine that does not include all of Israel and U.N. or not this will never happen.

The history of the region is well documented. And I trust that Israel will be taken care of by GOD himself and so I am not worried for her in the least.

I do have a question though, can someone tell me the name of the Palestinian leader prior to Arafat, who was Egyptian, but so are most of the Palestinians...



posted on Apr, 21 2011 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by theindependentjournal
 


That's easy. Ahmad Shukeiri the founder of PLO. Shukeiri was born in Tebnine, south Lebanon then Ottoman Empire to a Turkish mother and an Egyptian father.
Not only was he not a Palestinian, but in 1964 when PLO began operation, there were no “ occupied territories”.



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