Seeking only truth that can be scientifically accepted by others might be missing the point

I tried to keep this short but it just didn't happen, so apologies for that.

Last night I watched Contact again, and then I had an experience. This isn't for the Gray area though, or Skunk works, or whatever, because my experience is a side-issue compared to the main point here. It's just helping lead up to the main point basically.

So I was in a bad mood, watched Contact, thought the film was brilliant like I did last time, then I sat there at the end. My bad mood had decided to stick around, but there was something else there. An inspiration from the sense of urgency for answers that the main character in the film had, and a true sense of hopelessness when it came to thinking of the idea that we'll know as a species what's going on any time soon. Also some thoughts about what could be out there and how ridiculously beyond anything we can understand it might actually be.

Then a thought from somewhere came into my head, and I can't remember any exact sentences, but it went something like "Do you think an advanced race would need all that equipment just to make contact?" And I thought, well of course not. I went to bed shortly after, and then something in me made me imagine a type of field around me, something protective, and I concentrated as much as I could, cleared away any pre-conceived ideas of what I could possibly get in touch with, and prepared to drift off to sleep.

I try to see things regularly when I drift off, but a lot of the time something happens and then when I resurface to consciousness the memories are blocked from me. I don't know why that happens and won't pretend I do. Maybe it's related to when you wake up and don't remember a dream. And this happened again, but I managed to remember the end of it.

I'd drifted off but I was pushing too much, and my mind was probably making things up. I can tell because they're too fake and artificial, be it a voice, an image, etc. It's usually part of my own mind trying to play tricks on me, so like I said, I was pushing too much. And I remember saying something in my head, like "It's just the same old thing."

At this point I was about to go to sleep and had given up. Then I saw something for about 2 seconds, and I said something like "Wait, that isn't....." And I shot up in my bed and opened my eyes. I still don't know if it was the start of a dream or I'd been shown something, but I saw a city at night, and a ship taking off and starting to head in the direction away from me. That was it. It wasn't a Human ship because it was way too big, but that's all I'm saying. I have no idea at all what relevance it has to me so I'm staying open minded on it.

But it reminds me of one clear and very obvious fact. And that's that those who seek truth only in scientific data that can be shown to others might be completely missing the point, and things will happen to people that our technology just cannot record or our current scientific understanding figure out.

Now, if you're trying to make a case to people who've never heard of UFO's before, then yes, I'm completely in agreement that you take the data, the best cases that can't be explained, stay away from talking about aliens, and stay well away from talking about things like different alien races, etc. Just work with what we have in the way of unexplained cases. Radar confirmation, sightings by multiple witnesses, photographs, sounds, etc. That's the way you can help open people's minds up to the possibility.

But to have experiences yourself, to push further for the actual truth of things, sometimes you have to let our current scientific understanding go. That's if you're truly bothered, if you truly want it. You cannot and will not, be able to have everything neatly presented to you right now because we're just not ready. But as I saw what I did last night it reminded me of something. And that's that if you're truly prepared and don't try to fit aliens into some neat little box of what you want them to be like, or what you think they should be like, you can enter a type of awareness where you can sometimes get bits of information. I'm sure of this, totally sure of it, but there's not one bit of anything I can present to someone who only accepts scientific data that can further what I'm talking about here. So if you're relying only on that for answers, or even a better idea of what might be happening, you should maybe stop and have a really good think about things.

Our minds are lightyears beyond our current scientific understanding, and several types of aliens might be out there, and way, way, way beyond anything we can even begin to understand.

Just one final thing about Contact. (spoilers follow this if you haven't seen it, so skip this paragraph if you want to avoid that.) At the end of the film, Ellie DID make contact, but there was NO possible way she could prove it to anybody else on the planet. (apart from if she had what the NSA guy had, but she didn't.) Science couldn't, without what the NSA guy had recorded, help her in any way at all in putting across to people what happened to her, but it DID happen to her.

So look around the world, and think of all the people that might be having strange beings contacting them, and then think about how there's absolutely no chance at all of any of them being able to prove a thing. Our current understanding of science is good for presenting certain types of evidence, but if you really, really want to push further for answers, even if they're just your own answers that you can't actually present to anyone else, you might have to leave the idea behind that you can prove it to others, have your experience if you're fortunate enough, then go back to whatever else you're doing and carry on.

Yeah, you'll be frustrated that you can't help anyone else see what you saw, or hear what you heard, but at least you'll have something other than pictures, recordings, radar data, tables, graphs, lists, interviews and the rest of it. You'll have something you won't be able to fully confirm, but at the same time you might have something that you won't be able to fully deny either.

I hope this isn't taken in the wrong way either, because I respect believers, researchers and skeptics equally. It's just the hoaxers and shills that get to me, but at the end of the day, we've all got our own reasons for doing what we're doing. At some point in the future maybe there'll only be one group left, a group of Humans that have finally been contacted fully and have the truth. The only question is how far off that's actually going to be.

Equal to your argument that not all things can be proven with science, I would say that only the ones that can are of any interest to me. These will be the ones , the proofs of which will one day lead us to discover methods of travel which will allow us to explore the deepest and most enigmatic places in the universe for our selves, with our own eyes, rather than waiting tens of thousands of years for light to reach us from these locations.

It will not be intangible , unproven interactions with species etherial and fleshless, capable of leaving no trace, and no evidence which advance our understanding of the universe in which our world hangs. Such utterly useless events only have importance to the individuals they effect. If that is the case, then group therapy is the location for the discussion of such things.

For those of us whos one goal, whose one desire, our only wish, is the absolute proof of the existance of alien life in the universe, and the progress toward our own expansion into it as a species, this information that the victims of these encounters wish to share, is of no importance or use, except to others in the same position.

Group therapy , I say again,is the correct place for that. It sure as hell doesnt belong anywhere else.

reply to post by TrueBrit


I think you're completely wrong to be honest. People having experiences can be inspired and go on to do amazing things, and a lot of people who've done amazing things throughout history could have been partly inspired in the same way. As long as they don't try to force it onto others as being fact. So nope, your group therapy idea is almost definitely seriously wrong.

Actually they DID use Science to prove that Ellie had encountered a possible meeting with Aliens.

SPOILER ALERT FOR THE MOVIE

At the end of the movie they brought up the SCIENTIFIC evidence of the fact that her recorder had taped 8 hours of film in the time frame of only the few seconds that it took for the sphere to fall to the ground.

I am anxiously awaiting your response.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Actually they DID use Science to prove that Ellie had encountered a possible meeting with Aliens.

SPOILER ALERT FOR THE MOVIE

At the end of the movie they brought up the SCIENTIFIC evidence of the fact that her recorder had taped 8 hours of film in the time frame of only the few seconds that it took for the sphere to fall to the ground.

I am anxiously awaiting your response.

I know, I said that. What I said was that she didn't even know that existed, so she had no way of proving it to anyone else without it. I didn't say science didn't prove it, I said Ellie couldn't prove it to others.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


Actually is was 18 hours of static

I agree with Trubrit: science, math and the scientific method continue to be our specie's best (and so far only) means of discerning deeper and deeper levels of truth in the world and universe around us.

reply to post by Hitoshura


Science is Knowledge.

More specifically, Science is Empirical, Observable Data and Factual evidence on how reality works.

I think that most people are using the word "Science" in a fashion that is contrary to it's actual definition, or purpose.

Science is not about finding the secrets of life, the universe and everything.... Science is about mapping and cataloging WHAT WE OBSERVE about reality, and how it behaves.

Science is not a mystical, Religious, or metaphysical process... it is strictly logical, strictly evidence based, and strictly practical in application.

Science is about KNOWING THINGS.

You cannot find all the answers with our current level of science

Of course not... Science is not about finding the answers that you are referring to; and claiming that science is useless because it CAN'T answer your philosophical questions or quandaries is about as dumb as berating an Umbrella because it makes a poor submarine.

Science is not what you think it is, it's purpose is not what you apparently believe it to be, and its usefulness less "Why am I here, what am I here for?" and it is more "How do I design a communication system that enables me to post my ignorance to a wide audience?" or "What can I add to the soil so that my crops grow larger?"

You know... practical stuff about reality.


P.S. Oh, and what you call "Science", just for the record, is actually known as "Technology"

Yes, it is possible for technology to exist that we don't understand... but to claim that SCIENCE doesn't understand it, is to CLAIM that the Beings that are USING it, don't understand it either.

Technology is a practical application of KNOWLEDGE of how reality works.

And if some entity is building it / operating it... then it KNOWS how it works, and what it does.... which is called "Science"


No, OUR level of scientific understanding might not be up to the task, but to claim that SCIENCE doesn't know... is simply an incorrect statement.

reply to post by Hitoshura


I like what you said and how you presented it. It is hard and at times you may get frustrated like why even care to explain or share. But I guess thats the motivation in us that forces us to atleast want to share as much as we can w/o seeming crazy to who we share with.

S&F

I think this film is Fantastic. It's a really clever way to show that Science is just the same as religion in the sense of a scientist can have an experience and in the end it's just down to belief. Science does not have all the answers, and is often wrong anyway on many things. UFOs and aliens don't have to be 'provable by science'. My own experience is not provable by science yet I still know it to be 1005 true. Science is just at a baby stage and holds all the same surety and attitude of a kid who thinks they know it all. There are things way beyond science.

reply to post by Hitoshura



SPOILER ALERT FOR MOVIE

Without the taped evidence then everything was circumstantial. She could have told them that she flew inside the center of the planet neptune and had tea with Lemony Snickets. She could have started quoting random religious scripture. She could have started dancing a jig and said that it was the way to reach eternal harmony.

The taped evidence is ALL they had to go on besides her word or bringing back a piece of solid evidence. It is like Joseph Smith saying he saw magical plates but no one else could see them. Anyone can make up ANYTHING and claim it to be true without verifiable evidence to back up their claim.

The video evidence was the only thing that mattered. The 8 hours of tape was the most important part of the entire journey! Not her testimony. For all we knew she bumped her head and the entire episode was a hallucination. Perhaps the type of magnetic field used by the rotating rings caused her memory to be distorted and she was just having a psychotic episode.

Science attempts to eliminates the possibly of bias and corruption. Even accidental.

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps

 

Actually is was 18 hours of static

I agree with Trubrit: science, math and the scientific method continue to be our specie's best (and so far only) means of discerning deeper and deeper levels of truth in the world and universe around us.

On a species level, yeah. I agree with you, and I agree with TrueBrit too on that. But if you're searching for truth, a personal truth, if you want answers, if you really want to try and get a better idea of what's out there, you might have to temporarily leave the ability to have it scientifically accepted by others behind to do it.

Listen, science guys, I'm not saying lets all leave science behind. I'm just saying that sometimes it might have to be left behind for a while if you want to take that step further for the time being. I still hope science proves something some day because that's the only way it's going to be fully accepted by the looks of it, but you can still find truth outside of what our science can currently figure out or record, and that's not something you can gloss over because it's a fact. Our science just isn't at the right level yet.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


Actually it was 18 hours but the proof was from the earlier messages they got in the movie. It was how they moved the plot along. The got a signal...then they got the hitler broadcast and within that they got the vegan code. So the had proof all along. That is what bothered me about the movie....they argued that she never went anywhere. Okay got that but the fact was they got the information on how to build this incredible machine. That is what the movie was all about. The latter part of the movie was pure hollywood. I do agree with the OP that many people have their own exp's and strange feeling they can not explain. It is hard to understand it all but many of us are searching for the same thing and that is what is important. We want to know who we are? Who and What are out there? What is the purpose and meaning of it all? We may never really know but searching for the truth through our own dreams and hidden history is important.

Originally posted by Hitoshura

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Actually they DID use Science to prove that Ellie had encountered a possible meeting with Aliens.

SPOILER ALERT FOR THE MOVIE

At the end of the movie they brought up the SCIENTIFIC evidence of the fact that her recorder had taped 8 hours of film in the time frame of only the few seconds that it took for the sphere to fall to the ground.

I am anxiously awaiting your response.

I know, I said that. What I said was that she didn't even know that existed, so she had no way of proving it to anyone else without it. I didn't say science didn't prove it, I said Ellie couldn't prove it to others.

edit on 19-4-2011 by Hitoshura because: (no reason given)

The character Palmer Joss poses the question to Ellie "Did you love your father? Prove it", to which she is at a total loss. That's like asking a dog to fetch the newspaper by driving out to a news stand; it's just silly.

Science will NEVER be capable of proving or disproving a wholly subjective experience, because you'd need to re-create the circumstances for someone else to verify it. In this example, Ellie would have to somehow invite Palmer inside her head and heart so that he could feel what she feels about her father.

I hope the hell we never do run into a civilization that is so cock-sure of their views on God.

Faith & love are in the eyes of the beholder, while science is subject to everyone's objective verification / refinement through experiment and observation.

Its like scientist say black holes do this and that but non have personally tested up close hands on.
They say the universe is 13.5 billion years old but non have seen it created.
They say fluoride is good for the teeth but forget pineal gland influences who cares?
They say Stars they observe are made of all these known materials due to visual reads but not from actual physical data from that exact star, no they say stars all made of certain chems that show color signatures when observed yet non consider chemicals that may not even be know that give of same spectrum reads but its all lumped together.
They say humans have been around for ???? years, I aint even gonna ask how do they know was any there during first create.
They said bp oil sickened food is cool to eat.
They said that they can disprove god with little star makers by proving big bang. Dangerous!!!!!!!
Basically what I am getting at is science does the same thing as those who seek beyond science it provides fragments of data to build off of. Sounds familiar

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by Hitoshura

 

Science is Knowledge.

More specifically, Science is Empirical, Observable Data and Factual evidence on how reality works.

I think that most people are using the word "Science" in a fashion that is contrary to it's actual definition, or purpose.

Science is not about finding the secrets of life, the universe and everything.... Science is about mapping and cataloging WHAT WE OBSERVE about reality, and how it behaves.

Science is not a mystical, Religious, or metaphysical process... it is strictly logical, strictly evidence based, and strictly practical in application.

Science is about KNOWING THINGS.

You cannot find all the answers with our current level of science

Of course not... Science is not about finding the answers that you are referring to; and claiming that science is useless because it CAN'T answer your philosophical questions or quandaries is about as dumb as berating an Umbrella because it makes a poor submarine.

Science is not what you think it is, it's purpose is not what you apparently believe it to be, and its usefulness less "Why am I here, what am I here for?" and it is more "How do I design a communication system that enables me to post my ignorance to a wide audience?" or "What can I add to the soil so that my crops grow larger?"

You know... practical stuff about reality.


P.S. Oh, and what you call "Science", just for the record, is actually known as "Technology"

Yes, it is possible for technology to exist that we don't understand... but to claim that SCIENCE doesn't understand it, is to CLAIM that the Beings that are USING it, don't understand it either.

Technology is a practical application of KNOWLEDGE of how reality works.

And if some entity is building it / operating it... then it KNOWS how it works, and what it does.... which is called "Science"


No, OUR level of scientific understanding might not be up to the task, but to claim that SCIENCE doesn't know... is simply an incorrect statement.

edit on 19-4-2011 by ErtaiNaGia because: (no reason given)

OK, you're right with some of what you've said there and that's really well put. Will re-check my original post and try to clear up problems related to what you've said.

edit : ok, I've gone right through the post and changed several 'science' parts to 'our current scientific understanding', 'technology', etc. Thanks loads for your post.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Science and math is still the only tool man has invented since language that sheds any light on this great big dark place we call the universe.

Religion has consistently fallen far short of the mark when people attempt to use it as a science to describe this place we live within.

That is not the fault of religion, or those of genuine faith.

It is the fault of people who profess to follow a religion, based on faith, yet are such doubting Thomases that they feel the need to "prove" something to others, and therefor themselves.

God obviously thought science and math were good for mankind to know; he or she gave us brains that could invent these tools in the first place, not to replace faith, but to augment it in light of the wonders we have learned.

I think you mix up technology and science.
Science is a way to approach things.Ultimate goal of science is to get the ultimate truth. Sort of philosopher's stone. It is not possible naturally but this is an attempt to move toward truth using available tools and universally accepted concepts.
Scientific approach cannot be applied when nobody can spot the phenomenon due to lack of tools capable of measuring it,true. But if you can use your mind to spot it, you can apply scientific approach - since you have a tool capable of noticing the the thing.
So either our mind is beyond current technological level of other tools we have and can be used in those cases that those tools cannot help , or it cannot do so reliably.
And i do not want to talk about delusions,self hypnosys, self fulfilling proficies or in extreme cases- mental disorders. Excuse my fpelling.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
I think you mix up technology and science.
Science is a way to approach things.Ultimate goal of science is to get the ultimate truth. Sort of philosopher's stone. It is not possible naturally but this is an attempt to move toward truth using available tools and universally accepted concepts.
Scientific approach cannot be applied when nobody can spot the phenomenon due to lack of tools capable of measuring it,true. But if you can use your mind to spot it, you can apply scientific approach - since you have a tool capable of noticing the the thing.
So either our mind is beyond current technological level of other tools we have and can be used in those cases that those tools cannot help , or it cannot do so reliably.
And i do not want to talk about delusions,self hypnosys, self fulfilling proficies or in extreme cases- mental disorders. Excuse my fpelling.

I've just gone back the the original post and cleared most of the problems up I think. Sorry for any problems caused. I'm not trying to create rifts here, I respect science and want to learn more about it, I think it's essential that we use it too, and idiotic not to. What I'm getting at is this :

If you want to push for truth, you might have to leave behind technology, our knowledge of science, and the idea that you can share what you see, hear, experience, etc.

The way some people are going on here you'd think that if they couldn't record it and share it with others they'd rather just leave it.

I did make some mistakes regarding science though so I can accept being attacked for it. Seriously though, the way people go over the top defending science, even though it should be defended and I can see that, you'd think it was a religion in itself. Maybe it's just the nature of Humans to be fanatical about things instead of having a calm conversation.

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
Science and math is still the only tool man has invented since language that sheds any light on this great big dark place we call the universe.

Yeah but you don't have to rely on them both all the time. Your mind shines its own light too and can be used instead sometimes. Maybe even used by others, from millions and millions of miles away in outer space, to communicate with you. To help you understand truth.

reply to post by Hitoshura


I do not wish to attack you. All i say is that scientific approach was "developed" as a way to find truth. And so far it is very competent one. Why using "mind" to reach the truth automatically means you cannot use scientific approach - this i do not understand.