.22 Rimfire Semi Auto's

Definitely, the Ruger.

Push comes to shove, if your field craft is good, you can use that Ruger and go get the long-range shooters weapon.

Nice thing about the .22 that you can't say about the .223, is that you can hold on target and talk about follow-up shots! You never lost your sight picture - not even for a millisecond.

If you expect to be able to have one in a year or so, may I suggest you begin to stock up on ammo - if the laws in Scotland permit.

I have a Remington 597 with a heavy barrel, and the "Hornet" style thumbhole stock. I have a decent little scope on it, and couldn't be happier with the performance. I have a 40 round mag for it, and I can chase a soda can around with it like you wouldn't believe. You can throw a ball in the air and shoot it 5 or 6 times before it hits the ground. I wouldn't underestimate the capabilities of a .22LR in a defense situation. Sure a .30 cal. based rifle is going to transfere a lot more energy in one hit, but you can put 5 .22 rounds in the same spot in the time it takes to put in 2 rounds of a heavier calibre. For the purposes of harassment, and denial of ground, or access, a .22 would be excellent. I don't care how tough you think you are, getting drilled 5 times a second with a .22 is not a sustainable condition, nor condusive with continued living, you are going to vacate the area being targeted quickly.

The little Remington is also fairly quite with moderately powered ammo, so it would be a little difficult to ascertain exactly where you were being shot at from. Also it doesn't tend to scare off everything in the woods for a mile when you shoot it.

reply to post by smokeythabear


Still gotta hunt for food if SHTF.

My vote is a Ruger 10/22.

reply to post by clintdelicious


Yup, it's legal

I'm not a shooter, like the OP I live in the UK, unlike him I live in a city and have never handled a firearm. But one thing puzzles me, it's the vehement anti-22 brigade that come out with arguments such as "it's not gonna put a man down in 1 shot" or "you're dead if he can hit you at 1000 yards and you can't hit back.

I dunno about the U.S, but here, there's precious few places I can think of where you could even get a 1000 yard sight line, let alone a useful 1000 yard field of fire. Very few people own firearms here, and far fewer would have access to anything bigger than a .22 - essentially only military personnel would, so to advise against a .22 as a SHTF weapon for this reason seems a little farcical to me. Especially when .22 is probably going to be the easiest round to scrounge up if everything does go pear shaped. (Reviewing this statement, I'll admit there are plenty of 1000 yard sight lines round here, all of them useful if you want to defend one desolate hilltop from attack from another desolate hilltop.)

As for it not being a man-stopper round, well, thankfully I've never been shot, and fully intend to keep that state of affairs.... However, surely being hit by a .22 even in the muscle of your arm or leg is gonna hurt like a bar*d? Enough to make most people slow down if not stop? Especially, if as other people have pointed out, the round has a tendency to bounce and fragment if it hits bone.

Originally posted by aegis80
I'm not a shooter, like the OP I live in the UK, unlike him I live in a city and have never handled a firearm. But one thing puzzles me, it's the vehement anti-22 brigade that come out with arguments such as "it's not gonna put a man down in 1 shot" or "you're dead if he can hit you at 1000 yards and you can't hit back.

I dunno about the U.S, but here, there's precious few places I can think of where you could even get a 1000 yard sight line, let alone a useful 1000 yard field of fire. Very few people own firearms here, and far fewer would have access to anything bigger than a .22 - essentially only military personnel would, so to advise against a .22 as a SHTF weapon for this reason seems a little farcical to me. Especially when .22 is probably going to be the easiest round to scrounge up if everything does go pear shaped. (Reviewing this statement, I'll admit there are plenty of 1000 yard sight lines round here, all of them useful if you want to defend one desolate hilltop from attack from another desolate hilltop.)

As for it not being a man-stopper round, well, thankfully I've never been shot, and fully intend to keep that state of affairs.... However, surely being hit by a .22 even in the muscle of your arm or leg is gonna hurt like a bar*d? Enough to make most people slow down if not stop? Especially, if as other people have pointed out, the round has a tendency to bounce and fragment if it hits bone.

I don't know how much of this was directed at me, but I'll take a stab at answering it. I'm not anti-22, as I said in earlier post, I shoot my 10-22 more than any other rifle. It is not, however, my first choice for a SHTF scenario. A .22LR simply will not meet my requirements. If it meets your requirements, or is the only thing that you can get, by all means use it.

Do you really want to debate the outcome of "you're dead if he can hit you at 1000 yards and you can't hit back"? I think it is rather self evident. You may plan to never be in that situation, but if you find yourself there you have a big problem. If you plan to survive by stealth and concealment, great. A .22 may be a good choice for that plan. But to ignore the shortcomings of the equipment is a potentially lethal mistake.

You observe about sight lines that "I'll admit there are plenty of 1000 yard sight lines round here, all of them useful if you want to defend one desolate hilltop from attack from another desolate hilltop". Every multi-story building in a city or town has the same tactical advantage of a hilltop in the country. The difference is that many people will be trying to defend buildings.

Common sense would tend to lead us to believe that shooting someone even in a non-vital area will cause them to stop or at least slow down. The reality is that many people who are shot with small caliber low velocity rounds (.22, .25, etc) later report that they did not even know that they had been hit at the time.

The bottom line is that a .22 will not meet my expected requirements, so I will not make it my primary weapon. If it meets your expected requirements, you should consider it for your primary weapon.

Can I just clarify at this point, this would not be the only firearm I would have access to if the SHTF. However it would be my own personal 100% legal firearm in the run up to TSHTF scenario.

reply to post by Doc Gator

It certainly wasn't a direct attack on anyone (I barely read who posted what most of the time, content grabs my attention more than tags - unless it's a brightly coloured one).

I'm not gonna debate that if the other guy has a longer range then he has the advantage. What I had hoped to open to debate is WILL the other guy have longer range / the opportunity to use it. I'm guessing you're a Yank (sorry if that offends, but I wouldn't want to offend any Canadians or Mexicans by calling you American ), from a lovely open country where cities are laid out in orderly grid-like lines, also coincidentally there's probably a large number of guns / shooters that can take advantage of those lines of fire.
Here there's not, you look off the top of the average multi-storey here, and you'll see a concrete wall within 100 yards, roads are laid out according to where a goat wandered 1000 odd years ago, and quite frankly apart from the odd road laid by the Romans, most look as if they were laid out by a planner with Parkinson's.

Also there is (I would imagine) a huge disparity in the number of firearms, the caliber of said firearms and the number of people with firearms training. Here, it is literally a very few sports shooters, with very restrictive laws on the types and calibers of firearms they are allowed to own, and game-keepers / farmers, who also suffer great restrictions on the types of weapons they can own who (apart from military personnel and criminals), will have any access to a firearm or any experience in using one.

As I was trying to point out, the circumstances are quite different over here, and what might be fatal flaws in owning / using a smaller caliber rifle might not be evident in this environment.

My brother once stabbed me in the arm with a knitting needle (which had a diameter smaller than .22") and although it wasn't through and through, it penetrated an inch or more (on my skinny ass frame that's like 1/2 way through the arm), so yes, I'd guess my common sense does indicate something putting holes in me would be immediately and intensely painful, but I guess once you realise someone is shooting at you, endorphines get flowing etc etc.

reply to post by aegis80


You are correct, I am a Yank. I have, however, spent several years living in Europe (mostly on the continent) and Asia, and am very familiar with the goat wander streets. You are also correct that most of the cities here (at least away from the New England area) are laid out in some semblance of order. This does, in fact, provide opportunities for longer shots if one is so inclined.

The important thing to remember is to honestly evaluate the situation you will likely be facing and choose your gear accordingly. If my mission is to harass and demoralize (think sniping) I don't have to worry much about weight because I don't have to move quickly (I walk out before they know where the shots came from). If my mission is to observe and report I am very concerned about weight because I have to move constantly. In the latter case, I would probably consider not even taking a .22 and going with just a pistol since if I have to start shooting I'm screwed. If I'm defending a fixed position, I want the biggest, longest range round I can get. In this case weight is not a concern as I will not be moving it and I want to be able to reach out to them long before they can reach out to me.

So, if you think a .22lr fits your needs, by all means use a .22lr. Just don't expect it to perform beyond it's capabilities.

Originally posted by nuspy
reply to post by Highlandlad

 

You should ashame of yourself.
Do you whant to go hunting with a semi-auto rifle??? Have you ever heard about hunting ethic?
I actually don´t know laws in your country, but as in UK there is a well established hunting tradition I would guess that is forbidden: if it is not for case any colleague hunter you will meet will speet in front of your boots if he see you using a semi-auto rifle for hunting. You are not in the USA that has no hunting cultural background: remember hunting is a privilege, so hunters have to deserve to be that.
I suppose you will fail your hunting test if you won´t deeply modify your mentality. Anyhow hunting courses exist also for that, to let dudes have a possibility to lear hunting culture too.

Now, about the .22 LR.
I have one, I just use it for sessions at shooting center to keep myself in training (responsibility while hunting, to kill with one shot to avoid pain to my prey). I tested it on a roe deer head fawn I shooted with a 7 x 64 mm: ,22 bullets didn´t penetrate the bones of the scull: I was 5 meter away and I tried from more direction with different bullets (Stingers, Yellow Jackets, stb) and no result at all. I think you can´t use for such "big prey". May be can be used for foxes: also in this case the death won´t be immediate and the animal will suffer.
It is for that not ethic and you should avoid it to call yourself hunter.

So you should use also for foxes at least a 6,5 mm.
Hunting ethics (consequentially laws) in europe prescribe shoutguns for rabbits, with lead balls of #4 to #6 measure depending on season and kind.

There are twa sayings about .22 LR.
"If you shot someone with .22 LR and you are not so lucky to kill him in one shot, that man will come to punch you".
"If I shold say if I prefer to be shot by a .22 or a .45 I would say I prefer not to be shot"

edit on 19-4-2011 by nuspy because: (no reason given)

no hunting cultural backround ????? excuse me but do you even know the history of USA.... aside the faults of the fur trade hunting was the most essential aspect of settlement during the expansion of the USA ... native american heritage of many people that live here i am included... hunting cultural back round HA..... hunt to eat... eat to live .... and culture based hunting if you mean by the wealthy getting together to put trophies on there wall or furs in the cabinet you are mistaken of what a real hunter is...... a survivor and person to survive off what they can kill... not what they can buy... oh sport shooting should be target shooing anyway animals are not to be killed and left.... eat it or don't shoot it.......

If you want to do head shots on rabbits at 100 yards, I would suggest on getting a 22 bolt action rifle. I have a tack driving Kimber, but they don't make them anymore. If your well off, I would suggest on getting a Cooper.
The cheaper one, is a fine CZ.
If you prefer a military style Shtf rifle: Go for a dedicated 22 LR. AR-15 upper. Buy a good name AR-15 lower, like Rock River, POV, La Rue, Smith & Wesson, etc etc.

I have a dedicated "Model 1" upper from Texas. Do not buy a conversion bolt for a 223, or a 5.56x45 upper. It's because you have to clean shoot a 223 round after every 30 to 50 22lr rounds. The 22's produce alot of soot, and when you shoot the 223 round, the bolt and charging handle can explode.

Use Black Dog 26 round magazines. You can lubricate the mag's with dry Teflon lube or furniture wax.

I use a degreaser[make sure you wear eye protection,] and lube with dry teflon on the bolt, and a fine gun oil on the trigger group.

After each shoot, make sure you swab the rifle chamber with a oily Q-Tip.

I have approx. 35,000 rounds [+,- 10,000 rds] fired with the 22 upper. You cannot use notched or thin hammers. Use a mil-spec hammer; or else they'll break in half after approx. 3,000 rds.

Keep the bolt clean along with the extractor, and also the trigger group.

Order a free floating forearm for the 22 upper.

For optic's I'm running a Eotech 552 laser hologram 1x sight. It's fast as a rattlesnake and twice as deadly.

Or I can run my Burris Tactical 1 thru 4x, with a Burris Fast Fire 1.75 X Red Dot mounted on top of the scope.

When SHTF happens you can always have a different centerfire upper, like a 5.56X45, 50 Beowolf, or a single shot 50 BMG upper. My 22 upper likes CCI ammo.

Other 22 upper maker's are Spikes Tactical, Olympic Arms, Tactical Solutions.

Enjoy shooting them tasty wabbits.

Erno86

The 22 Savage, is also a fine bolt rifle. You can also get an AR upper in 5.45x39.

Don't know for sure if this has been posted, but there are (or used to be) hollow points for the 22LR, and bird/rat shot shells as well.
It's been a lot of years since I had my 22 semi, but I don't remember it ever jamming with either of these loads, and I know I had them, so that makes it very versatile, whether weapon or all around shooter.
I would recommend it; especially for someone who is just getting their permit, as the OP stated.
Another big plus is the cost of the ammo.

Ruger 10/22 all the way. My favorite .22 rifle ever. They can be kitted out to feel and look like almost any guns out there, are hella accurate, and are darn fun to shoot. Here's a little video of mine (it wears an M4 style kit) while I test out some subsonic rounds, then just play around.


The Ruger 10/22 is probably the best .22 rifle ever made.

My favorite is a Ruger Mark II with a red dot sight on it.

www.hornetproducts.com...

Great for small game or self defence with the right ammo.

You can empty a Ruger a lot faster and more accurate into a target then you can a 45 1911

I have mainly used Ruger 10/22 LR's for hunting many animals like; birds, sea animals, and some others. The Ruger that i owned was completely stock and it survived through salt water exposure and years of abuse. Now, I currently own a Ruger 77/22 all-weather rifle, a .22 magnum, which is a used rifle that is still very accurate and very reliable too! The .22 magnum rifle that I own also has been through the same as my Ruger 10/22...

LOVE .22's. Made some great money as a kid taking out ground hogs for farmers. Got $10 a tail.

I own a single shot Remington, with open sites. Most accurate weapon I own, and it was made in the 30's.

Originally posted by Quickfix
reply to post by smokeythabear

 

I wouldn't know about being shot in the head, that's why i said you have to know where to shoot a hue-man.

There is the Jugular vein in the neck or the heart. And I would of figured a headshot would do enough damage to atleast stop a charging hue-man or knock em on their tucus for a finishing blow.

Just saying.

Dear Quickfix,
Obviously you are a total amateur. I would love to see you hit a charging person in the head with a .22 with out losing your $#!+ for one, and two, getting off a well aimed enough shot. If you have a charging person, you are talking about multiple rounds with at least mostly decent hits, while moving backwards yourself. I am a very experienced shooter, and know my limitations, and what works, and what doesn't. So before you start going off on a rant here about what you think you would do, please stop before you embarrass yourself on this site. And get off Smoky's back about the .22 talk, obviously he knows what he is talking about. and also, when you stated that the Ruger 10/22 is supposed to be a reliable rifle, I am just curious as to know why you stated (supposed)? Makes it sound like you don't know, makes it also sound like you are the amateur I called you out to be. Do some research first on your own before you go spouting off. Any how. A good rifle is a Ruger 10/22, I would swear by it, but as far as (close to immediate) stopping power, you at least want to keep something a little bigger around. At bare minimum a 9mm. I love rimfire .22 for hunting small game. I got a old sears and roebuck .22 bolt single shot I hunt with every year. and dang that thing shoots strait every time.

reply to post by Highlandlad


Stay away from the Walther G22
Had one... hated it... traded it off pretty quickly
read about my experience's with one here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Stick to the Ruger 10/22 that's my advice...

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now!

A good friend of mine has the Sig 522, which he got because he loves Sig's rifles but can't afford the Sig 556.

I've used it a ton when we go out shooting, and hands down it's my favorite .22 I've ever used. It's a great quality firearm, the ONLY problem we have seen with it is the little pinch knob that holds the stock against the receiver when you fold it sideways. The protruding part gets stuck in the little slot, and pulls the whole clip thing out. Not really a big deal, but kind of silly they didn't at least glue that in there (it's just pressed in)

Other than that minor problem, I really loved shooting it. Personally it feels much better to shoot than his 10/22 or my 597. I just prefer the feel of a modern style battle rifle instead of your more traditionally laid out 10/22 or 597.

Accuracy seemed better than the 10/22, but not as good as my 597 with a floated barrel, but otherwise stock. A minor gripe with the 522 is the magazine. It's made well and everything, but only holds around 24 rounds if I remember correctly. Considering the size of the magazine (same size as a real 5.56 mag) they should have been able to fit a lot more in there. I have a magazine for my 597 that holds 40 rounds and is about the same length.

The 522 seemed to fire much more reliably than both my 597 and his 10/22. My 597 is kind of picky on ammo, as is his 10/22 to a lesser extent. But the 522 took absolutely everything we fed it, and we didn't have a single problem the whole time, save a single failure to fire due to a dud primer on one of the rounds.

The only downside is the bulk. It's obviously based off a 5.56 rifle, so the thing is a lot bigger than a 10/22 or 597, and you don't really get anything more because of the size. Magazines are obviously larger too, so you wont be able to fit as many spares in a given space. It's also about twice the price of a 10/22 or 597, at least in my area.

So if you don't mind the increased bulk and price, I see no reason NOT to get the 522. But if you want to save some cash and space I'd suggest either a 10/22 or 597. I really like my 597 more than my buddy's 10/22, but I'll have to admit it takes a bit of work to get it functioning reliably as the 10/22. Make sure you have the 3rd gen magazines, or aftermarket ones. You can get aftermarket extractors that will make it's reliability equal to a 10/22 from what I've heard, but mine works well enough with the proper ammo right now that It's not a big concern. Plus, out of the box I've found the 597 to be far superior to the 10/22 in terms of accuracy.