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Gays adopting and childrens rights

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posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:08 PM
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Mynaeris:

What facts are you talking about?

Please be a bit more specific.

Cheers

JS




posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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If it will give a child a loving home and stability I dont have a problem with it. It beats the hell out of being raised in one foster home after another or in some instituion run by the state. Most of the arguements against it are so lame I dont even need to get into them, but I will say that if you are so homo-phobic that you would rather see a kid raised in a state instituion little better than a prison than see them in a loving home just because you dont like there choice of sex partner than you need to look at your own belief system.

The remarks about animals and kids dont fly either, an animal or child cannot be a consenting adult, unless you are dr dolittle


It is the same as comparing sex with rape because sex with an animal or child is automaticaly rape.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:26 PM
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Lets start with the basics.

Where is your proof of children raised by gay parents choosing to either rebel against or to be pushed into their parents sexuality? Does that happen to straight parents, their children go gay because they feel the need to rebel?

Then the whole story of the boy who became a hairdresser and his voice changed etc. It happens to all kids when they start trying to fit into groups that they identify with. Can you say "Valley Girl"?

The history of gay people objecting to people saying they were born that way? Where did you find that?

With approximately 10% of the worlds population being gay, I feel confident that someone near you probably is. I hope you show him or her more empathy than you are showing on this thread.

Where is any psychological evidence that kids raised by gay parents are any different from others? And don't say this is a new phenomenon, its not many gay parents have raised their biological kids with same sex partners. I don't think more than 10% turned gay by association.

The more you post the more I just see prejudice and drivel supported by NOTHING.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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Amuk:

"If it will give a child a loving home and stability I dont have a problem with it."

Nor do I, but there are MANY heterosexual couples out there for adopting children - there is no need for gay couples to adopt. Gay couples wanting to adopt is based on THEIR needs/desires, not the other way around. If it was the other way around then the gay movement would be campaigning for the child's rights and not the rights of gay couples to adopt.

"...but I will say that if you are so homo-phobic..."

LOL. Why is it that every time somoeone says anything that goes against a "minority group" they are immediately given a "tag" or a ??-phobic status or "you are prejudiced". For the record, I am not afraid of gays - I have a number of gay friends and I love them dearly, although we can have some interesting debates sometimes. Regarding the adoption of children, they have accepted the fact that their choice does not allow them to have children...they even find it amusing how a "small section" of the gay movement are pushing for equal rights regarding marriage and adoption.

I also find it amazing that the gay movement cries out "equal rights for all" but within the gay movement you have MAJOR prejudices etc. For example; the "prejudism" between the rockers and the queenies etc etc.

Anyhow, back to kids; yes, I do agree that a loving family is the best thing for the kids, however just because the gays stand up and say "we want to adopt", doesn't mean we should say; "OK, no worries".

Let's try to stick with the family unit as it should be...and preferably a loving one at that.

Cheers

JS



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by jumpspace
Amuk:

Nor do I, but there are MANY heterosexual couples out there for adopting children - there is no need for gay couples to adopt. Gay couples wanting to adopt is based on THEIR needs/desires, not the other way around. If it was the other way around then the gay movement would be campaigning for the child's rights and not the rights of gay couples to adopt.

Anyhow, back to kids; yes, I do agree that a loving family is the best thing for the kids, however just because the gays stand up and say "we want to adopt", doesn't mean we should say; "OK, no worries".

Let's try to stick with the family unit as it should be...and preferably a loving one at that.

Cheers

JS



There are so many hetro couples they dont need gays adopting??????

I do not have the exact numbers but there are at least tens of thousands of children either in temporary foster homes or state run instituions that will NEVER be placed in a home of ANY kind herto OR homo.

And for the record I do not believe that gays should just be able to "stand up and say I am gay give me a kid" ANY future parents should be carefully screened for things that count like mental illness, criminel records, history of child abbuse, etc.

As for gays adopting "for their needs" why do you think strights adopt? Because they want children and usualy cant have them same reason gays adopt.

By your last statement you seem to say it would be better for them to be in a unloving hetro home than a loving gay home am I mistaking or is that what you meant?

If that is not what you meant I will ask you stright out would you rather see a child in an abusive "normal" home or a loving gay home? And there are lots of BOTH kinds so how about a stright answer if you will parden the pun, not some crap like there are more than enough loving hertro homes so they dont have to.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 05:59 PM
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jumpspace you have no clue what your are talking about, and are obveously coming from a religious perspective. I also don't think it a stretch to say you don't know any, or haven't talked to a homosexual person about this.

I have friends that are gay. One guy played inside linbacker for the University of Tennesse, raised by a strickt father that he spent his life trying to please. This guy went through marrage, girl friends and a child cause thats what he was suppose to do. When his dad died, he came out, I knew he was gay well before that, and no he didn't/doesn't act girly.

My brother is gay, 4 boys in my family and 1 is gay? So how does your enviroment theory work? Your full of crap and you know nothing but the religious agenda propaganda I was talking about.

I got one question, do you know what hermaphrodite is?

Also, you should do some research on Y cromison(sp?) break down over generational decendants.

[edit on 27-7-2004 by Darktalon]



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by jumpspace
Some people are into beastiality...they choose to sleep with animals - it is a choice they make. They make their choice and that's fine but should these people be given the same rights as gay people? Should they be able to adopt? Should they be allowed to marry an animal? You say NO...that's sick! Well, wasn't being gay considered sick at one point...before it was "supposedly accepted" by society? Should society's acceptance of something mean that it's OK? What about the romans and the christians? Society accepted that and now we look back and see it was VERY WRONG.


Comparing Homosexuality and Bestiality once again, heh?!?!? This comes up over and over again regardless of how many times it's shown to be an invalid, illogical and just plain stupid example. But for those who may have missed the previous threads dealing with it, here it is again....

Homosexual activities are between Consenting Adult Human Beings who are willfully choosing to participate in those acts, which is their own right to do so. It doesn't even have to deal with Homosexuals either, but just People in general. People are able to give their consent and establish that their actions are by their own choice and by their own will to do so. So you CAN"T compare ANIMALS & PEOPLE in the same methods, like you are doing above.

As for Society establishing what is 'OK' or not. Like it or not, that is how it is. They are called 'Laws'. Now, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with Societies 'Laws' and/or 'Opinions' of what is 'OK' is up to them to decide for themselves. For example, it used to be 'OK' to own slaves, 'OK' to publicly beat a Black Man for speaking to a white woman unless he was spoken to first and 'OK' to beat your wife for pretty much any reason under the sun. While it's not 'OK' to do those things now, there are still many people who feel that it is 'OK' to do those things. That is how Society functions. Whether it's 'OK' or not is up to each individual to decide for themselves.


This applies when gay couples "push" their beliefs onto their children (and it DOES happen)...much like a KKK based family "pushing" their beliefs onto their children.


Everyone pushes their beliefs on everyone else. Always have always will. It's not just groups like the KKK and so called evil groups or people either. Parent's push their beliefs onto their kids. Religions push theirs on to everyone who will listen, especially kids. Friends push theirs on to their friends. Employers push theirs on to their employees. Governments on to the Governed. So on and so forth. You are pushing your beliefs on to everyone here reading your post, just like I am. So you can't cry foul and start pointing fingers and expect to be viewed as anything but a hypocrite.


Yes, of course it comes down to love but that doesn't mean we should automatically allow gay couples to adopt because they're "loving". Same with single parents that are "loving".

A child is made in a natural state from a male and a female who, naturally, love their offsping (apart from the minority who shouldn't even be allowed to have children). This is how nature works and this is what we should be basing adoption on - the family unit - a heterosexual couple who have the capability to "love". It's the natural order of life.


People that produce children do not automatically 'Love' their kids, nor do they automatically know how to raise them, care for them, etc. Obviously when looking for families to put adopted children with it comes down to finding the best suited environment for each case. If possible, the Race should be a match for example, but that doesn't mean it is a must. It is simply one of the many criteria to look for when matching up a child with a family. If there is a Gay Couple who can provide a healthy, caring, positive environment for a child, they should not be skipped over simply because of their sexual preference.

The divorce rate is over 50% now and the number of Unhealthy 'Traditional' family units probably make up at least half of that other 50% who actually stay married. When a child is raised properly, they are able to establish and live a 'functional' life of their choosing regardless of their past history.

Because a child is raised by homosexual parents doesn't mean they will be homosexual as well. To think that is just dumb. If it worked like that then gay children being raised by straight parents would then be 'Turned Straight' in the same way people assume Homosexual Parents can take a straight child and 'Turn them Gay'. It doesn't work like that, except in the Imaginary World of those who are Paranoid of different people and/or Uneducated about Human Development.


Yes, I agree, some people shouldn't be allowed to have children. It's a shame that we can't "turn off" the ability and when you are ready to have children then that ability is "turned on" (if you are suitable parents of course).


Now this I agree with 100%!!! Fortunately we do actually have Birth Control which makes it possible to 'Turn off/on' the function like you mention. Now if people would just take it and/or take even a tiny bit of responsibility for their actions the world would be so much better off!!


"No matter how often ignorant people say it, being gay will never be contagious" No? What about the high percentage of gays in fashion and hair-dressing? I know of a gentleman who's son went into hair-dressing. He started "talking funny" and was even mimicking his "role models" body language (you know what I mean). On another note, why is it that some (not all) male gays adopt a "girly voice" - this isn't natural, it is learnt. I even remember seing a boy (13) on TV saying that he was gay as far as he could remember...and he had a VERY girly "gay" voice. Further investigation found that his mother/father were not good parents and he used to hang out with another group of people when he was very young - a group of transvestites/gays.


Taking on the mannerisms of people who you are around or influenced by is something that does happen. Acquiring an accent within a language, or using slang, or dressing and/or acting like your peers, etc. However, the influence of one's peers or environment is hardly enough to completely alter someone's sexual preference.

Once again this comes down to whether or not the child is allowed to establish his/her identity on their own. It is possible to confuse and control or alter the development of someone if you try hard enough, sure. But simply being exposed to different lifestyles and cultures will not be enough cause someone to develop in an opposite way then they are naturally.


I agree, it was kept in the bedroom - it's the gays that made it public by wanting "equal rights".


Equal Rights have nothing to do with anyones Sexuality!!! Equal Rights are Equal for all People. Man, Woman, African, Asian, Tall, Fat, Blind, Blond, etc.

All PEOPLE are, Constitutionally, recognized as having Equal Rights. There is no other criteria for these 'Rights' other than being one of the People. That goes for EVERYONE.....ALL PEOPLE.....get it??

Everyone should be fighting for Equal Rights. It's when others try for 'Special Rights' for one group or another that there is a problem. This is why things such as 'Womens Rights', 'Gay Rights', 'Civil Rights', etc. are all B.S. if they are something other than 'Equal Rights'. That is because 'Equal Rights' should already cover anything and everything for all people already, which all people share equally. Do you see the difference???


As far as I'm concerned, if you make a CHOICE regarding your sexuality then you accept what comes along with that choice. What the gays are doing now is trying to change the laws so that "society" is forced to accept them and as such, they can accept themselves.


Well, the specifics of these 'Laws' that you say the 'Gays' are changing first need to be presented individually if you want to really debate them. Otherwise that entire statement is just your very generalized opinion which is also even suggesting something along the lines of proof toward some conspiracy movement by 'Gays' toward their psychological state of well being.

As far as 'Rights' are concerned, ALL PEOPLE are Constitutionally recognized as having the same 'Rights'. There are no special categories for Gays, or Rich, or Dwarfs, etc. So as long as someone who is Homosexual is simply trying to live their life along the same 'Equal Rights' as everyone else, there shouldn't be any problem. In fact, it is more about others trying to make laws against Gays than the other way around, IMO.


As an example, I used to enjoy the program Ellen - a good laugh. Personally, I didn't care whether she was a lesbian or whatever - I simply enjoyed the show for what it was. Then she stood up and used her show to state she was gay...well, I stopped watching the program.

I accept people for who they are. If they tell me they are gay later on then that's fine. If they tell me that I should accept them because they're gay, well...they're no longer a friend.


Well, that is fully within your right to do so too. Nobody is forcing anyone else to watch certain TV programs or even any TV at all for that matter.

You should read your last section there over and over cause you totally contradict yourself. Obviously you don't accept someone for who they are. You accept them for who they are as long as they fit within your parameters, which in this case excludes Gay People.

Also, what in the hell does it mean to accept someone cause they are gay versus just accepting someone for who they are??? If you accept someone for who they are, that would include everything about them. Nobody is saying you have to be friends or anything with people just cause they are gay. All it means is that you don't treat them as if they are somehow sub-human. They are just people like anyone else and should be treated the same.


Keep it in the bedroom by all means...but that comes to another point - what happens when the child "inadvertently" walks in on his/her gay parents? Bit of a mind f#$%? Yes, I do think so.


Well, we could go on all day with the 'What if's', but there is really no point other than to exercise our imagination.

As far as mind f*cks go, there are about a million more harmful events one could use than your example. Things like WAR, Starvation, Disease, Domestic Abuse, Torture, Crime, Gang Violence, Drive-By Shootings, Murder, Rape, Prolonged Severe Drug Addiction, etc. Most of these in fact are seen daily by children either on the News, Cable TV, Movies, Games, or in their local neighborhood, school or homes.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by katt06
to me, it would be a crime allowing a gay couple to adopt a child. The child, growing up in a gay environment, will only breed more gays.


I'm sorry but this is the single most idiotic comment I have read in months.

What exactly is a "Gay Environment" and how is it more damaging to a child then living a life of neglect and abandonment in some government run orphanage??

Give me a break.

I'd hate to see the hate mongers you raise.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:27 PM
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Mynaeris:

"Where is your proof of children raised by gay parents choosing to either rebel against or to be pushed into their parents sexuality?"

That was given as an example based on psychology.

"Does that happen to straight parents, their children go gay because they feel the need to rebel?"

ditto.

I found this:

"Despite their flaws (see next section), pro-gay studies on same-sex parenting still show that between eight per cent56 and 33 per cent57 of children with homosexual parents subsequently embrace a homosexual lifestyle as adults."

That certainly is higher than your 10% isn't it?

"Then the whole story of the boy who became a hairdresser and his voice changed etc."

I was making a simple comment base on your contageous comment.

Your statement:

"It happens to all kids when they start trying to fit into groups that they identify with."

I rest my case.

"The history of gay people objecting to people saying they were born that way? Where did you find that?"

Heard on news reports MANY years ago.

Here's a link for you:

traditionalvalues.org...

10% of people are gay? LOL. Read the following:

www.solidrockfaith.com...

It debunks a few other statements made on this thread.

I have provided another good link for you to read:

www.biblebelievers.com...

Regarding the original post topic, read the following:

www.cwfa.org...

www.christian.org.uk...

Read the info, say sorry for personally attacking me and we can still look at this from a "higher level".

Cheers

JS



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:32 PM
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LOL You are a simpleton, go to anti-gay websites to find out "factual" information about gays? Nice. Try going to some real research sites, not some religious agenda sites.

Still haven't answered my questions...



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:38 PM
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Well at least he used unbiased sites



Do your "dozens" of gay friends know you think they are an abomination before God?

At least you put to rest any questions I had



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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What if a child walks in on his/her parent having sex with partner of same sex?

How do heterosexual parents deal with it?

If the children are old enough, I hope they understand the concept of privacy and I would hope the parent has enough sense to lock their door to insure that privacy.

But lets face it, things do happen, so what if........

Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they are stupid and the well being of the child isn't a high priority. Their preference is just different than mine. That doesn't mean their reaction would be any different than mine in that scenario.

I can think of alot more disturbing things that would be considered a mind f@#k than walking in on two loving people in the act, opposite sex/ same sex-if it is handled appropriately.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:45 PM
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Darktalon:

"jumpspace you have no clue what your are talking about, and are obveously coming from a religious perspective."

LOL. Yeah right - I can tell you one thing for sure; I follow NO religion, religion is absolute CRAP - they distort truths and change their laws depending on how best they can "keep the masses" coming to their chuches and filling the money tin.

"I also don't think it a stretch to say you don't know any, or haven't talked to a homosexual person about this"

If you mus know, one of my best friend is Gay. He is an absolute lovely guy and travels the world as a freelance journo.

"I have friends that are gay. One guy played inside linbacker for the University of Tennesse, raised by a strickt father that he spent his life trying to please. This guy went through marrage, girl friends and a child cause thats what he was suppose to do. When his dad died, he came out, I knew he was gay well before that, and no he didn't/doesn't act girly."

Great. It's good to see he doesn't "mimick" that girlie voice.

"My brother is gay, 4 boys in my family and 1 is gay? So how does your enviroment theory work?"

I don't know what he went thru when he was a kid and I don't know who his friends were or who he associated with.

I'm sure all four of you didn't associate with the same friends etc etc etc...

"Your full of crap..."

Another intelligent comment I see.

"...and you know nothing but the religious agenda propaganda I was talking about."

Read above Darktalon

"I got one question, do you know what hermaphrodite is?"

Yes I do. What's this got to do with the rights of children or gay females/males?

"Also, you should do some research on Y cromison(sp?) break down over generational decendants.."

Yes, the govt. is very worried about this. I suspect it is the female base growth hormones they are putting in food that is causing this problem.

Questions answered...again!

I answer yours but you don't seem to answer mine do you : )

Cheers

JS



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:48 PM
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I noticed you only provided religious organizations to back up your arguments. How about one from an independent study?



"Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents," a summary of research findings to be released this fall by the American Psychological Association states.


Link




In a similar policy statement, the American Academy of Family Physicians said, "There is no evidence to suggest or support that parents with a gay, lesbian, or bisexual orientation are per se different from or deficient in parenting skills ... when compared to parents with a heterosexual orientation."


Both of these very imminent organizations find that a child can grow up - happy, healthy and well-adjusted regardless of the parent sexual orientation.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by jumpspace
Darktalon:

"jumpspace you have no clue what your are talking about, and are obveously coming from a religious perspective."

LOL. Yeah right - I can tell you one thing for sure; I follow NO religion, religion is absolute CRAP - they distort truths and change their laws depending on how best they can "keep the masses" coming to their chuches and filling the money tin.



Then why are the majority of the links you provice to back up your "arguement" religious websites? People who spread hate in the name of god.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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darktalon/Amuk:

Re my links, if you ACTUALLY READ the links you will see they quote INDEPENDENT STUDIES.

Talk about going off without reading anything. Crikey!

Amuk:

"Do your "dozens" of gay friends know you think they are an abomination before God? "

Did I say that did I? Once again, people coming to conculsions based on ASSUMPTIONS. I like them for who they are - what they do in their bedroom is no business of mine. However, if they come out and try to push their beliefs on "society" then I would certainly let them know. Luckily they agree with me on this one...and NO, I haven't had a gay friend in the past that I have become "unfreindly with" due to their pushing it on "society", however my current gay friends seem to live their own lives in harmony and not worry about the "noise" that is happnening out there.

"At least you put to rest any questions I had "

I'm glad : )

Cheers

JS



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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I look down on your reasoning jumpspace
. Anyone who thinks a gay couple with a stable income should not be allowed to adopt is completly without reason. One loving person is enough to take care of a child, two regardless of gender and sexual orientation is even better given they can afford the child finacially and emotionally. Orphaned children deserve better bouncing around foster homes and any willing couple wanting to do good should have full rights to take in a child.

I strongly oppose ANYONE who tries to denounce those of a different sexual orientation than "normal" over an issue like adoption and jumpspace you are doing it.

Your opinions to me sound like you think a child is better off in crackhouse with 2 deadbeat parents than with a homosexual couple.

Let me reiterate this, anyone or couple willing to help a child in need has every right to, regardless of sexual orientation. A child needs love and there are far worse things a child can be exposed to(not than homosexuality is bad to begin with).



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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OK everybody...

To make it simple for you, lets look at the basics shall we:

1) Children need loving parents
2) Children need stability
3) Children need a balanced viewpoint of life.

Now I'm not even going to get into item 1) and 3) as this is going nowhere, however consider item 2).

Do your research and then make some comments.

Please don't comment about anything else as this thread has gone WAY off the intended topic.

Can we even add to the list maybe?

Cheers

JS



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 07:02 PM
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With that list you have made what is your problem with gays adopting? I do not see how they break those rules you have presented.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 07:05 PM
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He's insinuating that gay couples are incapable of living "stable" lives.





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