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Shockingly Awry

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posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 08:38 AM
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This conflict has not gone the way anyone could foresee.In fact it has become apparent that it has gone awry,shockingly awry.I have no doubt that the coalition,with their technological edge,will overcome but at what cost?
I think this is a good time to look at how we have come to this point and what future problems might arise and how those problems may be solved.

It was said,in the past,of the British Army,that they were lions led by donkeys.This analogy was used to describe the relationship between the soldiers and the officers.Today the lions are our brave military but the donkeys are in Washington.

First,before the opening salvos were fired those who wanted this war managed to split the UN and NATO two organisations responsible for keeping world peace and also the EU which has kept Europe peaceful.I don't want to go over ground that I have been over before in the last months.Suffice it to say that Pre-war was a diplomatic disaster.Let us leave that.Historians in future will spend plenty of time analysing that with incredulity.

Onward to the campaign.Rumsfeld's arrogance that the US Army was so superior that 200,000 Allied troops could face 400,000 Iraqis,the assumption being that Iraqis would greet the American with cheers and flowers.The US Generals must be having a fit.It is said that the Allies occupy a lot of desert this in itself is misleading for all that is occupied is a thin coridor of desert.Uum Qasr,just over the Kuwaiti border,has just fallen after 6 days,How long will it take before we hold Nasiriya,Karbala,Najaf all now behind our lines.Most worrying of all what about Basra a city of 2 million people.What is not being reported are the 3 Iraqi Divisions untouched waiting to the South East of Basra if they were to drive west and cut the US supply line there really would be a big problem.

And the weather.I know Estragon(with his knowledge of Attic Greek) will smile if I say that these sandstorms recall the storms faced by the Persians before Thermopyai and Salamis.As Herodotos said then"Heaven itself seemed to be working to reduce the enemy to a strength not excessively greater than the Greeks"
It seems the cruel wind will not join the Coalition of the Willing and has decided to ally itself with the despot.

To the North the Turks,the Kurds.Let's not think about that.We have enough problemsBaghdad

Baghdad the concrete Vietnam.But there is always the Hiroshima Scenario.Is it possible that Bush who deludes himself that he is a modern day Churchill will prove himself a modern day Truman.
It was said that the justification for using the A-bomb was that it saved US troops lives.Could the MOAB be used to shock the Iraqis to their senses?

This does not come close to answering the problems faced with the reconstruction of Iraq.Washington today gave a price tag for this adventure $74 billion many on Capital Hill believe that that figure could be doubled.Invasions are historically paid for by reparations or a dividend.However if the USA take this dividend then they can not expect the International community to pay,via the UN,for reconstruction after a war that the UN did not sanction.All this with a world recession looming.

And the "Arab Street"who have lived in fear of American technology and the supermen that wield it.What will they think now they know that Americans bleed just like they do?

1 or 2 months of extra inspection would of ensured International consensus and these problems would of been overcome with collective responsibility.Now Blair and Bush must meet to resolve all these problems on their own.

And finally justification has still not been proven.No chemicals or bugs have been found.You may not need proof but the world who will pass moral judgement on the USA/UK do need proof.Washington's word is no longer of value.




[Edited on 25-3-2003 by John bull 1]




posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 08:48 AM
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I don't think there has ever been a more successful campaign in military history, so far. C'mon, 7 POWs compared to 3000, a few friendly fire incidents, one downed chopper, and one truck taking a wrong turn, with a few casualties (comparitively). Hardly the "setback" some seem to call it... In just a few days, we've captured a lot of territory, and carved out a good column leading to Baghdad. Sure, there is still some combat going on, but the armor is still moving. Examining the battle so far, the strategy seems simple enough and well-planned. We solidify a supply line, go straight for Baghdad, take out the leadership, and then mop up elements of resistance. So far, it seems like everything is going perfectly according to plan. As for finding WOMD, we're too busy fighting at the moment to start searching, but once areas are secured, I'd expect quite a few discoveries.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 08:49 AM
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Splendid post, J-B (it IS being reported if colleagues do a little looking).
Modesty forbids my mentioning that humble Estragon did quite a bit of "foreseeing" in the old threads. And let me forestall peasants& pedants by pointing out that J-B is fully aware that Thermopylae was on top of a mountain, Salamis a sea-battle, and that Marathon is the battle in question ( he e-mailed me in Homeric Greek on this point): he merely wishes the unbooked to research. And the point is clear enough: God, as Voltaire pointed out, is on the side of the big battalions, and the moral high-ground is where the victor's flag is planted (as Estragon points out).
I have said elsewhere that now that British soldiers are fighting, I am prepared to abandon all semblance of rationality; but this is a MESS: it really is.


dom

posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 08:55 AM
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I think the real failure of this war is becoming apparent right now. And it can be summarised like this...

This is turning into a war of occupation, not a war of liberation.

And it's been presented as a war of liberation for the past few months.

I was reading that the Apache copter shot down was one of a large group of combat helicopters which were forced to retreat due to coming under heavy fire. Nearly every single helicopter had bullet holes in it... apparently the pilots were pretty shocked by that.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 08:55 AM
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Indeed Estragon,The storms only effected the sea battle in the strait of Salamis but the first storm occured before Thermopylae.Also by mentioning the names of both battles I increase the chance that people know what I'm talking about.


Perhaps the Apache Helicopters are the Tiremes of the Desert.

[Edited on 25-3-2003 by John bull 1]



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:01 AM
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Good grief, Gazrok: even your arithmetic is wrong, "friendly fire incidents?!!"- "simple", agreed. "Well-planned"??" and "captured" "territory": this would be "driven over sand". This pushes back the frontiers of gibberish: I urge you to justify a single collocation of words in your post.
Is "Gazrok" Rumsfeld's nom de plume (de guerre)? Anything unsupported is on the edge of drivel, old egg; but this is drivel triple-distilled.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:07 AM
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How can farmers shoot down an apache helicopter?

How many Iraqi soldiers have we gotten?

The media makes it seem as though we are losing...

We still don't have control of Basra and Nirayah.

Maybe this is the plan of the NWO.
The U.S. will lose, the economy will crash because
of no oil. Then the NWO will take away Americas
independence.

Why doesn't the media talk about how many Iraqi
soldiers have been killed or wounded or captured?



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:12 AM
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A gentlemanly response, J-B and let us hope the Apaches are not the triremes of the desert facing (if I may stretch the metaphor) quinquiremes of Nineveh.
But our civilised banter aside -and let Estragon iterate that now it's started, I wince for every coalition casualty, in full suspension of judgement - this is a black day (season?) for Western propaganda.
I can only hope that fellow-posters will shake off a while the fetters of jingoism and address what can be addressed: the difference between Hollywood and reality.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:39 AM
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"Good grief, Gazrok: even your arithmetic is wrong, "friendly fire incidents?!!"- "simple", agreed. "Well-planned"??" and "captured" "territory": this would be "driven over sand". This pushes back the frontiers of gibberish: I urge you to justify a single collocation of words in your post.
Is "Gazrok" Rumsfeld's nom de plume (de guerre)? Anything unsupported is on the edge of drivel, old egg; but this is drivel triple-distilled."

My arithmetic is wrong? Since when is 7 more than 3000? As far as friendly fire incidents, yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty insignificant numbers. Sure, I could go digging for links to exact figures of previous wars, the forces used, and the friendly fire casualties incurred, but I really don't think it's necessary to illustrate my point.

I will grant you that "captured territory" might have been an overstatement, but not much of one.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:43 AM
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Well....let's count helicopters. And "7" and "3,000" whence. the sources, my dear Gazrok.
And your solid structure of past reporting by these sources that will compel us to accept them unquestioningly?
It is a simple invitation. Review your post and "ground" a single statement as of now.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 09:59 AM
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Though, with it being plastered all over the news, I didn't think it necessary...

"The city has been the site of some of the heaviest fighting of the war. U.S. military sources said 10 Marines were killed in action and at least five others taken prisoner Sunday."-CNN (link below if necessary)

www.cnn.com...

Add the two pilots from the Apache...you have 7 POWs confirmed (as of last night from any news source).

Here's more:

" In Qatar, Gen. Tommy Franks, head of U.S. Central Command, said Monday that coalition forces have taken 3,000 enemy prisoners. Coalition officials have said thousands more Iraqi troops have put down their weapons and gone home, following U.S. and British instructions. At least seven members of the U.S. military have been taken prisoner"

www.cnn.com...

And this is just CNN, but in concurs to numbers reported by other sources... If you have some differing figures, by all means, please share... I have heard a rumor of about 16 more missing, but haven't seen confirmation yet.


dom

posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:08 AM
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To be honest with you, I think Gazrok is pretty much correct in the figures he's quoting about POW's. I suspect if we took into account KIA's we'd find a similar ratio (although maybe a few more coalition deaths right now from accidents, friendly-fire, etc.)

The only thing I'd argue about, is whether or not this is all going according to plan...



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by dom
The only thing I'd argue about, is whether or not this is all going according to plan...


I wonder myself but who knows what the plans really are? We sure don't know, if we knew then the Iraqi's would also. It seems to be going relatively smooth but I think they are feeling alot more resistance than they anticipated before reaching Baghdad. I dont think the POW or casualty numbers are that high for fighting on enemy soil, but only time will tell.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:15 AM
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How can you say this war has gone awry for the U.S.?
It seems to be going according to plan.Just because we haven't blown Iraq back to the stone ages,does not mean there have been unforseen problems.I'am surprized that people thought we were just going to walk into Iraq with no problems.

[Edited on 03/17/03 by nyeff]



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:17 AM
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The ratio of friendly fire deaths will likely be high. But that is because, we have taken many, many steps to reduce our casualties. Those same steps however, do not help the friendly fire occurances. So, with less soldiers dying in combat, but the same number dying in friendly fire, the ratio will be higher.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:18 AM
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Can I just say Gazrock that I have no problem with your figures.However that leaves 395,000 Iraqi troops.I think we can dismiss the notion that only the fanatics will fight.It appears to have become a cause for Iraqi Nationalism.The USA have helped Saddam achieve his dream of becoming a great Arab hero like Saladin



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:24 AM
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JB, personally I could care less how they view Saddam as long as we get rid of him and his evil regime. I know what you're saying, though.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:26 AM
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I'll grant you that. But it won't be so after the loss...


As for 395,000 troops left...don't forget those we've already killed (which is currently not stated), and this:

"thousands more Iraqi troops have put down their weapons and gone home, following U.S. and British instructions" Thousands more, you see...


So far, sounds like it's going well to me...



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:29 AM
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Just an aside.I mentioned above that maybe the Apache Helicopter will be the Tiremes of the desert in reference to the storms that Herodotus spoke of.
These Storms now look set in now for the next two or three days.I just heard that one Apache and one Blackhawk have been lost to the weather.



posted on Mar, 25 2003 @ 10:36 AM
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You should worry about how Saddam is perceived in the Arab world.Saddam has tried for a long time to portray himself as the descendant of Saladin.
Now,He at least is standing and fighting the modern crusaders.If the arabs unite behind him then countries such as Jordan,Egypt,Saudi Arabia could all come under threat from their own people.

[Edited on 25-3-2003 by John bull 1]




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