Overpopulation? Elitest Propaganda and Damned Lies Lies Lies!

Originally posted by swordwords
If anyone really believes that there is no need to control the growth of populations, then they should also be promoting a world wide redistribution of wealth to eliminate the poverty that accompanies high population growth.

Well... Turns out that's exactly what I am promoting. Please have a look at my threads, linked in my sig, called The End of Entropy (the foundation - read first) and The Ethical Planetarian Party Platform (the structure).

It's not so much a "redistribution" of wealth so much as a flood of wealth for everyone. I hope you choose to read. If you like what I bring, the ideas I have, please share them widely.

reply to post by spikey


Excellent post!
I shared it with many others.
I may have seen much of this in parts before but you compiled it well.
S&F

reply to post by spikey


Spikey on the whole, nice thread - and yes to a large degree I agree with your points about the focus on resources. That being said, there are a few holes in your argument.

Human waste (urince and faecal) don't just add water back into the equation, urine is full of nitrogen, it's a great fertilizer, but it needs to be mixed with large quantities of water in order to function effectively. Sadly too much nitrogen is added to a system - thus we then create massive blooms of algae or seaweed, which chokes the oxygen from the water, making it useless for drinking and watering plants.

The number twos of human waste not only carry exceptionally dangerous diseases, they smell pretty bad also - and in order to clear those up, resources are needed to break down the waste material into compost. Yes it can be done, but the system takes time to work, all the while releasing other gases into the air which we breathe etc.

As other posters have mentioned, what about the animals? Us humans like to put ourselves at the head of the food chain because we have a voice. If the animals had a voice do you think they would want us clearing more land for us to live nice and comfortably? I doubt it - and it's typically arrogant of us human folk to believe that we are kings of this domain - this year alone we have been shown how many times humans are insignificant compared to the might of mother nature - whatever peoples beliefs, the earth is bloody angry, and it seems directed mainly at us.

The other issue related to food production is trace elements. Properly farmed food accounts for all these things, I don't know if grand scale farming can produce all the elements needed to ensure our bodies function properly. Yes we may be fed, and may not be hungry, but will our systems be strong?

However, that being said, the biggest issue relating to humans especially from a western standpoint, is laziness! How many people today grow their own food? How many people tend to their own crops? How many people recycle food waste, garden waste and dare I say it, human waste? How many of us collect rain water? How many of us recycle waste water (showers, washing etc)?

Excluding those on ATS, I would suggest not a lot of the general populations do any of the above. We have become enslaved to the system, our day to day lives are too busy with work etc to spend the time needed to address the issues above. I know for me, I do not have the funds available to pay for rainwater tanks, solar energy production or solar water heaters. These things are only affordable by those with spare cash (the elite, and the sub elite). Those things would free up more funds for me, but instead I am enslaved to the bills of high resource costs.

In principle, yes the world can handle more humans, and yes in order to do so radical thinking is required. However human populations were never supposed to be as large as they are. We simply do not know what effect we will ultimately have on this planet if populations continue to grow without the right checks being brought in to balance the effect on the environment. Most people do not want a change in lifestyle to accomodate yet more people, and there in lay a large part of the problem - us humans think about one thing, ourselves - anything that might negatively impact our lives is always a bad thing, we fail to understand things on a larger scale - and until humanity can actually grow up and face the issues in a mature manner - the world will continue to degrade as a result of our actions.

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by WhiteHat
At least 80% of humanity live on less than $10/day.
At least 22,000 children DIE EACH DAY due to poverty.
Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
And there is a lot more to talk about that.

If this seems like "there is more than enough for everyone", then I agree with you; overpopulation is not a problem at all. Let's bring some more.

But in the meantime here is a nice video based on reality, about the BIG WORLD, and it's real overpopulation problems.

Economic warfare.
Destruction of the natural environment.
Resource inequality.

None of this proves overpopulation true.

Of course not. As long as we can't perceive something, is not real. Theories, smart words, imaginary solutions to even more imaginary conspiracies, that's our reality.
I'm not trying to prove anything.
The reality is out there, as it is, not as we imagine it.
Wanna see it, take a trip to India, or to Africa, or to China, wherever you want. Walk in their shoes for a while, and maybe after that you'll have a wider perspective.
Or not.
If you want to keep thinking that there are no overpopulation issues, I have no problem with that. I won't argue with you.

reply to post by spikey


I respectfully disagree.
While much of what you say may be true (I did not read the whole post, btw), I am of the opinion that 6.5 billion people is just too damn many; hell, as a self-proclaimed misanthrope, I am tempted to say that one very well may be too many.

Sure, there may be enough resources to support a population our size...
however, almost a billion people continue to starve.

Those who believe the world isn't overpopulated also believe there are enough resources for everyone. Well, I'll be waiting for these individuals to grow up and hopefully realize that nothing lasts forever. This goes for oil, water, and food (especially animals/sea life).

Originally posted by dug88
This is the very topic that made me want to join ATS to begin with. I've been in school for 3 years now and since entering my third year all my teachers have been able to tell us is how now that we're in our third year of university they can teach us to think again. But I digress, I've also been told a lot about the "human population problem" and how we can fix it. I almost got up and walked away in disgust at one of our lectures. I would share the presentation with you guys, I'm just not sure if we're allowed to post other people's power points on ATS.

I would like to see this power-point if you don't mind. Or at least give me a link.

reply to post by spikey

Wow. I can hardly think where to begin. Coal for another 2000 years. Did you forget the oceans are getting more acidic, the krill are disappearing (bottom of the food chain), the mercury in fish, which eventually causes madness and brain destruction in humans, comes from the burning of coal, and that coal plants produce more radioactivity than your average nuke plant. Hmmm what else..... the plastic floating in the ocean is larger than Texas and the fish eat it thinking its food. Um.... The fracking for gas and oil injects poisons into our aquifers so we can drive 500 horsepower Mustangs, etc. when the speed limit is 75. The carbondioxide/oxygen cycle depends on plants to convert the materials yet we are cutting down more and more acres and replacing it with roads and houses and businesses. The topsoil is disappearing. There are dead zones in the ocean. The plants we use for food which had seeds are now being forcefully replaced with genetically modified seeds which grows but is sterile, also forcing a farmer to buy seed each year. The fish stocks in the oceans are being depleted far more rapidly than can be replaced. But.... its okay to multiply the population by 5 or more? Because.... technology will solve all these problems? Riiiiiiiight. You're driving that 500 horsepower car realllllly fast.... down a dead end!

Originally posted by WhiteHat

Originally posted by Jezus
Economic warfare.
Destruction of the natural environment.
Resource inequality.

None of this proves overpopulation true.

Of course not. As long as we can't perceive something, is not real. Theories, smart words, imaginary solutions to even more imaginary conspiracies, that's our reality.
I'm not trying to prove anything.
The reality is out there, as it is, not as we imagine it.
Wanna see it, take a trip to India, or to Africa, or to China, wherever you want. Walk in their shoes for a while, and maybe after that you'll have a wider perspective.
Or not.
If you want to keep thinking that there are no overpopulation issues, I have no problem with that. I won't argue with you.

The problems are real.

The imaginary blameless cause is overpopulation.

In reality decisions are made by people and they cause these problems.

Economic warfare.
Destruction of the natural environment.
Resource inequality.

This is one of the most communist orientated posts i've ever read.

Let's just get all the people in the world together and divide everything up among them. To hell with the natural environment, no more state parks, most of the forest are gonna go or do you plan on keeping all that and still giving everyone a place to live.

Take everything from the rich and let's make everyone on equal footing and everyone needs to work on the farms to produce food whether for themselves or to help the "community". Or work at salinization plants. Do some research on the newest plant in Saudi Arabia and see what it actually took to get that going. The price of building it and running it is astronomical yet you propose thousands of these to meet the global needs?

Who's gonna pay for it or do we just wipe business out and have someone take it over and build all this. Your plan is just going to make a different form of elites.

People need to quit with these dream posts and actually put out plans that will work in the real society we have today.

And also, the world will one day reach critical mass where it can no longer sustain the amount of people on it. It's inevitable. When that day comes I don't know but the earth does have limited resources. You couldn't fit 800 trillion people on it but one day we will reach a mark that the earth can't handle.

reply to post by spikey


Spikey has brought forth several compelling reasons to assert we do not have a problem with over-population. I Disagree on many fronts.

Lets start with floating farms on oceans. While there is ample surface area of the oceans to have many of those floating farms, the biggest and most serious problem are waves. Waves that can reach 60' high during parts of the average season, and storm waves that can be even greater. Those waves would swamp, destroy or even sink any such farming operation. This option is pie in the sky for our Atlantic, Pacific, or similar bodies. While desalination operated with solar is a possibility, a farm that remains floating after being struck by a huge wave will be saturated with salty sea water, and probably have most of the crops destroyed in the process.

On land hydroponic farms are becoming more common and practical. But there is an inherent problem with them as well. If a detrimental bacteria or virus or fungus gets a foot hold in such operations, either drastic measures with chemicals or complete shut-down are inevitable. A restart is not overnight and is very costly. I happen to like hydroponic farming, but it isn't a sure thing, especially on a large scale.

The south-west of the USA has been the breadbasket of the world for decades. Water has been pumped up from wells and irrigation has been widely practices. Unfortunately a recent report highlighted the fact that many irrigation wells are no longer pulling up water. The aquifer that supplied those wells was created over thousands of years, but has been used up in about 100 years. Under the wrong conditions that area will again become another great dust bowl. Yes other countries are beginning to bring up the slack but as population increases there is less wiggle room.

I'm all for wind and solar power, but at present both only supply a drop in the bucket of our power. We do have several thousands of years of soft coal (Bituminous) and yes that can meet our power requirements even without (or preferably without) nuclear.

I suppose if we moved population centers to formerly uninhabitable areas, land that is viable for crops will be sufficient. I don't know, and I don't know if Texas has enough land to house the worlds population.

Fresh oxygenated air is created when air is reprocessed by green trees. We have managed to deforest much of this planet, and while we are still breathing oxygen, we are doing less so than even 50 years ago. A huge replanting of the forests of this planet is needed to ensure the health of our forests.

Finally I question why we need a larger population at all? We are at about 6.8 billion. When I was born some 60+ years ago the population was about 3 Billion. The over doubling of the population has not brought forth any benefit to the planet or mankind. Ultimately what benefit does a large population have for its people and the planet? I can think of no benefit. Our cities are full of ill mannered, dangerous, people that serve no other purpose but to make life in the cities less than desirable.

I live on a farm, surrounded by crops, trees and cows. We don't have to lock our doors, and our biggest danger is falling face first into a cow-pie. We produce milk in vast quantities but are always just a few pennies from bankruptcy because you complain about the cost of milk or beef. So if we farmers quit, who will supply you dairy or meat? Bring our operation into the city and I guarantee everyone will revolt from the odors that are a natural part of farming.

Face it, humans are a species of animal without any predators except themselves. We must learn to control our population to within reasonable limits. The days of 2 or more children is past. This planet will return to a garden of eden with our world population returns to about 500 million. Today is it is a short step from becoming a fetid swamp.

Not to mention the extreme cost it would take to build safe farms in the oceans and housing for everyone who can't afford it and moving them and there stuff. It is just simply not viable. The population is increasing so quickly that you would need a government department of like a million people just to track everyone and make sure they were getting the same as everyone else.

Explain to all the species that are not going to be here, will be extinct, in the next 20/50 years that we need more people on the planet. Do you live in a city? I live in the countryside and I've seen what were once a beautiful, untouched areas turned into smoldering piles of rubbish over the past 20 years, to what end? Progress? The anthropocentric view is that the earth and everything on it is for our benefit, are you religious? The bible teaches the same thing. I disagree. And who is going to 'manage' human expansion, the same people who forewarn a 'new world order' also seem to be the same people talking about a global 'managing' of resources, the very thing they loath, asinine.

Brilliant thread.

I really feel the overpopulation thing is egged on by the elites and the reason it is popular is because people are so cynical and misanthropic these days.

Well .......all I see here is a group of well researched caring and intelligent people debating with a group of brainwashed, self centred, television addicted red necks, sorry for my derogatory manner but it is an obvious observation.
First of all most of you seem to be unaware of the coming earth changes, and no this is most definitely not a myth or some kind of tree hugging thing, at the end of next year all the people here who think we should kill other selves for their own benefit will go into shock when they learn the truth about our existence and they will not be coming back to this planet when this body die's, this is a fact!!!.....the lifting of the veil is very close and this is why the illuminati are stepping up their plans, they already know about this because they have all the original teachings that ALL religions are based upon, they know that when this happens they will have no chance of controlling the masses and want to be in complete control before hand, there is no way they can control 7 billion awakened people and they know it, unfortunately for them the deck is stacked in our favour.

Before someone yells bible basher I have no religious convictions at all, but I can confidently say that I know the truth about religion and where it originates.

Secondly we have more than enough technology and land to sustain far more people than we presently have on this planet, the problem is that the uneducated ones don't know of this technology because it is being suppressed for the benefit of the elite who if it is released will not be able to make money via oil, weapons and mining (their largest money making enterprises) they would lose control of the earth's population (and banking system) because we would not need oil we would no longer need weapons and mining would be negated completely........so what's in it for them then!!.... absolutely nothing, there is technology presently available (not to us) that will give us unlimited power for ever for virtually no cost at all, most of the world's countries already have this technology because the Chinese sent them all a care package last year that contained a working prototype of zero point energy, plus plans to build the modules and many other things including a battery that will power a car to run 1000 miles on 4 litres of water, desalination of ocean water quickly and efficiently as well many other goodies.
So you see we don't need these greedy self inflated pigs any more, all we need now is for people to wake up from their brainwashed lucid states and get with the program of getting this planet back into shape, we have the people, the technology, the land and more than enough water to green our deserts clean up the mess, eradicate decease (including the man made and introduced ones like AIDS and SARS) and feed the planet multiple times over, you non believers just cant see past all the toys they gave you to keep you distracted, past the TV that programs you on a daily basis, the HAARP signatures they fill our ionosphere with to muddle your thought process, the fluoride in your water that inhibits your thyroid functions and reduces cognitive function in effect "dumbing you down", the chemicals they spray into your air.
To break this programming you need will power and faith that what you know is actually true and not what has been placed there for you to believe...............STOP watching commercial TV, STOP drinking tap water and bought processed drinks, don't place so much relevance in mobile phones, and other toys of distraction, start meditating to clear your mind, and most importantly research like there is no tomorrow because if you don't then there may be no tomorrow for you to care about.It might shock you to know that the Vatican is behind this "New World Order" and has been since 1540 learn more about Count Peter Hans Kolvenbach the black pope.

reply to post by spikey


I think that there is enough resources in the world to only comfortably support about 12 billion people, in which we only need 4 billion more people to reach this mark, which at the rate we're going now will be in no time.

wow-look around poster, things would have to change to the max for that to happen. I do believe we could have double the current rate, but we would have to change things drastically. We could if the sheeple got off their butts and started protesting the war-GM food-the federal reserve, etc.
However this will not happen, we are not like our near ancesters who really felt things, and had clearer minds. We are all conditioned to not fake a fuss, to cower down, we are flouride poisoned. prescribed pills that numb most people.we need clear thinking from the masses.
Another thing we should think of is quality of life. Sure we can have a milion chickens on a farm-1000 cattle but do WE want to live in a box?????????????????????? And what about the natural animals we would replace?? the chain of life is connected-links cannot be over run and not have far reaching consquences

Hmmmmm....
I remember watching a science show (twice) and I spoke of many countries that are on the path to start eating red meat on the scale of the Americans. They said it would take 2 more earths to support that livestock. If countries gave billions to some places in Africa, we could make things somewhat better, but unlkely their soil would maintain if even able to make a dent into their hunger problems. Fresh water is already a problem plaguing many third world countries, and the diseases connected to that issue. I see the issues with China and their over population. Even a proud communist country like theirselves saw an issue and limited the amount of children a family can have.
For the area of fertile land, clean water I feel we're doing okay. I for one think the amount of resources we have are currently being stretched.

reply to post by CouncilOfNine


"Well .......all I see here is a group of well researched caring and intelligent people debating with a group of brainwashed, self centred, television addicted red necks"


I see this attitude time and time again, and its why I have little or no faith in a lot of self proclaimed 'awake' people.