Aliens have not contacted us, therefore theres nothing to disclose

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by consigliere

 

Regarding abductions.We "bag and tag" all types of species on this planet,,and really there is no reason besides curiosity or preservation. So to assume that an advanced species isnt doing the same to us, is not an intelligent school of thought.
It is mathematically impossible for there not to be intelligent life in the universe besides ours

But even assuming there exist intelligent aliens out there (and the OP does) that hardly means they're here stealing people at night.

And there would be no need for Aliens to do this en mass like the abuctionists claim, for the same reason we don't need to abduct every tenth organism of a species for bagging and tagging. And considering we're a space faring species, the analogy between man and creature-for-bagging-and-tagging is completely unrealistic. If they wanted to understand us they'd talk to us, just as we would if we could talk with the animals.


But that's all pretty irrelevant when there's no evidence of abductions outside of people's dreams.

dude there are over 6 billion people on the planet.abductions account for a way smaller number than 1/10th.also talking to us,,is ridiculous.who would be the ideal candidate??YOU/ME???or would it make more sense to simply study the species on a whole.now regarding abductions,,,i dont know if its true or not,,,however it is possible givin our behavior

IF there is inteligent life anywhere near are planet. THEY DONT GIVE A # BOUT THIS BACK WATER PLANET and the shurley dont give a # or care bout are puny species who is going to destroy its self. guys stop watching the x-files and the "history" channel and realize that are planet is located in a "deadzone" of the soloar system and def are in a kinda cosmic quarntean. honestly if a race of beings that were superior to us do you think they would even pay us anymind? honestly alien or not i dont think anthing would wanna stick there nose or tentacles in are business. get over it lifes not a movie and there are way worse things to worry about. DISCLOSURE WONT HAPPEN GET OVER IT GUYS

Originally posted by consigliere
dude there are over 6 billion people on the planet.abductions account for a way smaller number than 1/10th.

Well yes, not a tenth, but the proportion of people who report abductions by aliens is ridiculously high. Higher than reasonable for bagging and tagging. B&T is to get a sample of a species, not a whole cross-section.

also talking to us,,is ridiculous.who would be the ideal candidate??YOU/ME???

Why would they be talking to any one individual. If they're going to make contact, they're going to interact with many of us. You'd imagine that a representative team, diplomats would meet with world leaders and leading scientists - maybe they'd heal Hawking in a gesture of good faith. Interfacing with people is the best way to understand them.

or would it make more sense to simply study the species on a whole

Not via abductions it wouldn't.

now regarding abductions,,,i dont know if its true or not,,,however it is possible givin our behavior

What's also possible and must logically account for at least some abduction reports is sleep paralysis. We know it happens, we know it results in hallucinations of horrible creatures or witches because the semi-conscious mind don't know why the body can't move. It's entirely possible that all the reports of abductions bore down to either sleep paralysis, simple delusion & psychosis and lying.

THAT'S more likely than creatures coming across the galaxy just to stick things in my butt- uh.. our butts!

Originally posted by Thundersmurf

Originally posted by Numb2itall
You can ONLY speak for yourself on this topic. For YOU they may have never been here but there are some of us among you who have had contact all through out our lives.
I hope someday you get to meet one of them.
You will be changed forever.

are you seriously suggestign you have met aliens?

Thundersmurf, you are by no means alone here, friend. Met them? I would call that an understatement. This is why I am so hard on those who insist on calling ETs "demons." You are quite right too that you are changed when this happens. You will never think the same again. For those who doubt, may I suggest that you read a thread by one of our own, Sleeper.
Are extraterrestrials real? As real as the nose on your face
Last I knew, Sleeper was active over here.

If you don't want to wade through multiple pages on the thread, may I suggest you read his book? A Day with an Extraterrestrial The book more than details the experience. Sleeper and I share some things about this too, that is why I am supporting him here. It is time for everyone to just wake up to the fact that not only were we seeded here by ET, we have been altered, DNA upgraded, Gene Spliced, up to 18 times since Biblical Times. There was several ET races that bread with humans and produced what could be called "hybrids. This is reality, folks, not science fiction. Haven't you noticed that science fiction become science facts?

Not at all, there's no logical motive aliens would visit us unless we contacted them first.

reply to post by andre18


Actually the humans sent the strongest signal to the outer space in 1945 by the atomic blasts of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Of course, prior to that by the Nevada desert atomic test blasts also.

How did that work?

Atomic chain fission of the Uranium element creates enormous amount of neutrinos but no one knows where they are going. The earth scientists are still struggling to figure out what exactly these neutrinos are.

They measured the mass of the neutrinos and found out that the mass squared value of the neutrinos are negative numbers, meaning that neutrinos have imaginary value for their mass, which the scientists concluded was nonsense.

They are stuck with this dilemma since the Kamiokande and other Russian and European experiments showed the same results.

Now let's assume that the measured value of the neutrino mass is correct and see what will be its consequences.

If a particle has the imaginary value of the mass, according to special relativity, the particle has to be tachyon that travels faster than the speed of light.

If neutrinos are tachyons as the measurements clearly show, the atomic blasts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has already sent tons of neutrinos to the outer space in a matter of a second far greater distance than humans can imagine who still hold the speed of light maximum paradigm which is primitive from the advanced civilization's point of view.

The aliens would be extremely intrigued by this unusual signal and made the decision to visit the earth. They would know by now that the earthlings have just woken up to a new level of civilization though primitive in their perspective. This coincides with the sudden increased reports of the alien craft sightings, contacts and visitations around the same time.

The humans have already sent the strongest signal without knowing what they are doing.

reply to post by andre18


Space Signals only last for 1 light year or so before being too weak to be differentiated from background radiation.

It's not that they don't know about us. It's that they don't hear us. And thus don't care.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by gimmefootball400

 

whether they exist or not.

This text is clearly about contingency plans and doesn't tell us that aliens exist, just that FEMA has contemplated what would need to happen were we to be attacked by Aliens. They wouldn't be talking contingencies if they knew Aliens were here. They'd say "Now the aliens have thus far seemed benign in that they haven't to our knowledge acted with aggression even when shot at by rural yokels, BUT..."


C'mon. If you were in charge of the USA and didn't have reason to believe aliens had communicated, it's still be irresponsible not to consider what would happen in such an event. FEMA is exhibiting common sense.

Someone or something not of this world had caused several nuclear missiles to completely shut down or, in the case of Minot AFB in 1968, caused these missiles to become armed and ready.

These are very indecisive aliens aren't they.

Imagine if you were to reveal that we were being visited by beings from another world.

I'm imagining adulation and celebration like never before - it would be the ultimate external look at ourselves as one people, one species.

Just think of the widespread panic that would occur if that happened. It would make the panic that ensued from the "War of the Worlds" radio show by Orson Wells look like a piece of cake.

You do realise that people were scare in that case because they thought they were being invaded right? Learning simply that aliens exist wouldn't result in that - especially since most people believe aliens exist anyway.

edit on 17-4-2011 by Welfhard because: (no reason given)

The United States Government has been hiding the truth about alien visitation from us for years. Yet other governments have been inclined lately to release their UFO files to the public. If there wasn't anything to the ufo phenomenon and if it could simply be explained away. Then why has our governement been covering it up for the past sixty plus years? If are no such things as ufos, then how do explain the mysterious disappearance of Air Force First Lt. Felix Moncla and his F-89C Scorpion over Lake Superior in November of 1953? The aircraft nor parts from that aircraft have never been found in or around Lake Superior on either the Canadian side or the US side.

C'mon. If you were in charge of the USA and didn't have reason to believe aliens had communicated, it's still be irresponsible not to consider what would happen in such an event. FEMA is exhibiting common sense.

If I was in charge of the United States government, I would most certainly hide the fact that ufos and ETs have been visiting us for decades. Seeing as to how it would be a matter of importance to both "National and Global Security That Would Effect the Outcome of Humanity As A Whole." There is something more to the whole ufo phenomenon than what we have been and are being told. Something more as in what caused a full out air raid warning to be activated over the city of Los Angeles in 1942. This included eyewitness testimony that artillery shells where bursting in the air after bouncing off whatever the object in the sky over the L.A. Mountains was. Files from the Japanese Ministry of Defense at that time show absolutely no records of any aircraft belonging to the Japanese Naval Air Force being involved in any sort of mission in or around the Los Angeles area during the entire war in the Pacific.

You do realise that people were scare in that case because they thought they were being invaded right?

I do realize that people thought that we were being invaded by an army not of this world. However, who is to say that some hard-line religious folk would not go absolutely insane if it were to be revealed. Its not the fact that an alien civilization has visited and is visiting us. It's the fact of knowing whether or not these beings would want to be peacful with us or if they would rather see us annihilated. I believe that there are some civilizations out in the vast "emptiness" of space that would like to see us further ourselves as a society. I also believe that there some alien civilzations out there that would want us extinct. I mean it wouldn't be too hard for an alien civilization thats hell bent on our destruction to come to Earth and make us become extinct.

These are very indecisive aliens aren't they.

To us, nuclear weaponry and the capability to deliver these weapons was a new venture for the horrors of humanity at that time and even now. I mean if it wasn't for the Nazis, we wouldn't have a space program that has become the scum bag of the ufo researcher and debunker to the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. You can thank the Third Reich for their scientists coming over to the United States and helping, or hindering us, by building the NASA program to what it is today. To the ET visiting us though, the thought of of us figuring out how to use nuclear energy both as a power source and as a weapon is ancient technology to them. However, it would make them think that we could be a force to be reckoned with in the distant future.

Originally posted by woodwytch

Congratulations, all you've done is prove that sleeping pills have bad side effects. It's kind of an irrelevant point i didn't think you'd actually chase since it doesn't help your point anyway.....

Your premise is aliens are here abducting people. You know there's this question and this is the reason i bring this up. Everyday it seems there are threads and posts of people who are having difficulties with aliens in their personal lives, people claiming they're aliens etc.

This is a highly emotional issue, if you're talking with the ufo crowd you would think they would in some sense be inline with what scientists are saying because after all they're both trying to find the aliens. They think the aliens are here, while SETI's looking for them out in space, yet it's highly emotional, it's combative and i don't know why that is. However i might speculate a little bit and part of it is that you're challenging someones religion in a way because they believe this and scientists are saying it's not true. Well obviously they're going to get upset and on the other hand from your point of you you're annoyed that these people have the attention of conspiracies and not scientists actually doing the work.

I think there's also something empowering in knowing something that scientists don't know. You know something important and even though they've got a title in front of their names they don't know that and you do....and i think that may be part of it.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by KrypticCriminal

 

I'll make this point, they don't know we're here so they can't be specifically targeting earth with transmissions because they they don't know about our species and well the obvious rejoiner to that is to say well that's ok because they're just broadcasting to the entire galaxy, but that turns out to be expensive, at least if they do so at a level that makes it easy for the kinds of SETI experiments they run to detect.

They would need a omnidirectional broadcast on the order of ten to the 17 watts with the transmitter power. So ten to the 17 watts is a lot, that's kinda earths insulation that's the total sunlight falling on the earth - so if you're going to build an omnidirectional broadcast this is the power requirement for you in order that you make something that would be easily detectable by SETI.

To summaries this little argument here. The idea of looking for always on signals i think founders on the fact that there's no obvious motivation for them to target earth in particular and to target everywhere is very expensive. How deal with this is, is ergo the assumption that they're broadcasting at such a level that SETI's experiments could detect them.

Ten to the 25 watts is our sensitivity but that's only 100 years after Guglielmo Marconi and of course the aliens don't know when we invented radio, maybe they assume we invented radio 100,000 year ago and that we have instruments that are far more sensitive then this.

And a few proposals have been made from what i've researched that what you really want to do is send spacecraft out beyond the sun as a gravitational lens and make that your antenna, at which point you get in the order of 10 to the 11th gain over what ever you put out there, and that's the way to do these searches because with that kind of amplification that would allow you to see our street lights apparently.

So maybe that's what aliens are assuming that we know that we have that capability, because that's not so far into the future. I mean you can't do that today, you can't send a satellite out beyond the sun, but you certainly could in a century. So maybe the aliens are assuming we're a couple of centuries more along then we are and consequently they have very much weaker transmitters then the kinds of things we can find.

First of all how can you say with certainty that no other intelligent lifeforms know we are here (Earth) and that we exist (Humans) Thats a massive assumption right there. If your looking for a solar sytem that supports life then our solar sytem would be a perfect candidate. Based on the age of our sun and the proximity of the planets orbiting it. Which would put Earth in the goldielocks zone to use our scientist terminology. Now if we are smart enough to think of that then why not ET'S.

Now lets say they've got even a thousand years on us technologicaly. Not only could they have already tryed to contact us by whatever means and we missed it because we did'nt have the tech. Although they might even be smart enough not to try and contact other species incase they turned out to be more advanced. They'd have time to send probes which could explain some of the UFO's seen thses days, and if they've mastered some efficient form of interstellar travel visit us.

You should'nt base your entire belief system on the evidence of a single experiment. There are too many different possabilitys to consider which cant just be rejected out of hand. Im not saying you dismiss all other possabilitys but i dont believe you've considered them.

So my advice would be to try and look at it from a different perspective. Assume that aliens are visiting Earth and then try to figure out ways that could be done. Then coupled with what you've learned elsewhere. You'll have a more balanced argument. If your a sceptic through and through then nothing is going to convince you im afraid. You can come on here and have this same argument day in day out and still get the same responses.

Ask yourself why so many people believe were being visited. Even if you dont think so. There must be a reason. All of them cant be crazy.

reply to post by Welfhard


Dont get me wrong. im not saying that ALL abduction cases are "alien" in nature.I can agree with you regarding the whole"sleep" thing you reference.What im saying is,,,if intelligent life exists and have the capacity to travel to our"neck of the woods",,,yes they would study us,,,very similar to the way we study other species on our planet.and in most cases the scientist do their best to not leave an "enviornmental footprint".Possible but not necessarily probable.

Ive never seen a million dollars,,,but does that mean it doesnt exist?

i feel sorry for you, it must be hard living with your head in you a**. as sure as hell you are smart given the fact that you can walk, eat and sh*t in that position!

reply to post by notsoperfect


Atomic shock waves don't propagate without air, and any radiation signature generated would be drowned out by background radiation of deep space. And even if it didn't, they'd not be able to distinguish atomic nutrinos from solar nutrinos anyway.

reply to post by consigliere


I've never seen a Fairy. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No? Does that mean it does exist? No. It means I've never seen a fairy.


We have natural demonstrable explanations for abduction reports. We have no evidence of anything else so its unreasonable to presume there's anything alien going on.

reply to post by KrypticCriminal


Answer this, why would they send probes a hundred thousand or a thousands years ago as man has just started to develop and not hundreds of millions or billions of year ago, it's extremely coincidental that they'd send a probe here just in time to find us. They've had 4.5 billion years and just happened to show up now.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by KrypticCriminal

 

Answer this, why would they send probes a hundred thousand or a thousands years ago as man has just started to develop and not hundreds of millions or billions of year ago, it's extremely coincidental that they'd send a probe here just in time to find us.

edit on 17-4-2011 by andre18 because: (no reason given)

Why do we send probes to the outer reaches of the solar sytem? To find out whats there and do experiments.
Im not saying they expected to find humanoids running about the place. They might have just wanted to know what the Earth was made of or whether theres resources that they can harvest in the future. Finding life here might have been a happy mistake. There plenty of reason why they might have sent probes here. Think about it for a while and you'll realise it.

reply to post by andre18


First off, kudos for starting a lively debate and a mostly interesting thread. That said, the standard view on what and how an alien would seem to us is a little limited. In a Universe this old (or young, all in the perspective), who knows what forms and capabilities an alien intelligence would take? Think God. We could be in simulation created by us in 2090 for all we know, forget aliens.
As far as the millions of sightings and experiences here and now, it seems that some craft from out there are interacting, in whatever capacity. Viewing that possibility from a perspective of the physics we are just taking baby steps in seems incredibly intellectually limited.
As far as abductions and the like, I think it is as likely that some of the "they" come from some extra-dimensional place as it is from another solar system in this frame of reference.
Valee's writing on the subject is worthwhile and provides a rational framework to a subject that is by its nature irrational.
Either way, it seems some of us are lucky enough to have interacted with an alien intelligence, however unbelievable that one (or many) would bother communicating with our primarily backwards, insane species. Whoever "they" are, they must be saintly social worker types... or hungry.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by consigliere

 

I've never seen a Fairy. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No? Does that mean it does exist? No. It means I've never seen a fairy.


We have natural demonstrable explanations for abduction reports. We have no evidence of anything else so its unreasonable to presume there's anything alien going on.

Exactly,,but your quick to dismiss the fact that it could be possible,,,simply because "youve" never experienced it.In a court of law we can convict on "eyewitness" testimony,Yet your dismissing others "testimony",,because its "demonstrable explainable",,,by YOUR standards.Youve completely glossed over anything of relevance ive said,,,in lieu of your stance,,,
now to quote a very intelligent person,,,, "I've never seen a Fairy. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No? Does that mean it does exist? No. It means I've never seen a fairy",,,yet you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt,,,They Dont Exist,,,im done,you win

Space Signals only last for 1 light year or so before being too weak to be differentiated from background radiation.

reply to post by Gorman91


It depends on how sensitive their equipment would be.. The increased frequency of the bursts of the neutrino flux spike from the direction of the Sun would have been enough to arouse their curiosity.

reply to post by gimmefootball400

The United States Government has been hiding the truth about alien visitation from us for years.

But you're privy to this esoteric knowledge? Well they're not doing a very good job of hiding it then are they.

If there wasn't anything to the ufo phenomenon and if it could simply be explained away.

Not all of it can be. There are some reports that defy explanation. That doesn't mean they're alien, it means we don't know what they are.

Then why has our governement been covering it up for the past sixty plus years?

Because that's what governments do when they're investigating something. And then when they're done and find nothing of interest they stop - at which point there's no incentive to declassify anything as much as there is to keep it secret so they follow protocol and wait for it's classification time to expire and then declassify it when they're supposed to. If they had something to hide, they wouldn't be declassifying anything.

then how do explain the mysterious disappearance of Air Force First Lt. Felix Moncla and his F-89C Scorpion over Lake Superior in November of 1953?

Why is explaining it my responsibility? The burden of proof relies on those making the claims. Do you really need to invoke aliens to explain mysterious disappearances? The story isn't much different to those of the Bermuda triangle. Someone in a plane decides to chase after a U- that's unidentified -FO and doesn't come back. In such a case we have nothing to go one to explain what happened. For all I know it could've been Gremlins that made him crash never to be recovered. This isn't evidence of much at all.

If I was in charge of the United States government, I would most certainly hide the fact that ufos and ETs have been visiting us for decades.

You didn't read what I said. I didn't presume in that hypothetical that there were any extraterrestrials and in any case the rational behaviour would be the same as if there were extraterrestrials as perceived by the et believers. If there was no evidence of ETs there's nothing the govt could do to prove to you people that they didn't know anything about ETs - nor would they have the responsibility to.

Files from the Japanese Ministry of Defense at that time show absolutely no records of any aircraft belonging to the Japanese Naval Air Force being involved in any sort of mission in or around the Los Angeles area during the entire war in the Pacific.

So again, lack of evidence IS evidence to you.

However, who is to say that some hard-line religious folk would not go absolutely insane if it were to be revealed.

That's not what you said. YOU said that if it were revealed that aliens had come/communicated that people would react like or even worse than what happened with that radio serial. But that's just bollocks. And so some backwater religious cult commits mass suicide because they think they aliens are demons in disguise - normal people would be over the moon with the discovery including most religious people who'd then feel it their responsibility to inflict the ETs with their religion.

To the ET visiting us though, the thought of of us figuring out how to use nuclear energy both as a power source and as a weapon is ancient technology to them.

Right but presumably the ETs are smart. Presumably they're smart enough to see that the armament of the superpowers of the world with nukes from the perspective of game theory is pretty boring, or even funny. Once armed with nukes, there is no incentive to use them purely because of the massive negative pay off. It's like being in a fist fight one on one each with a grenade - the danger freezes both of you. The nuclear threat kept the cold war cold. From the perspective of the aliens, screwing with our nukes is potentially disastrous because it could set off a war.

The awkwardness of the nuclear ages is growing pains of a technological society and one that no doubt every technological society will face eventually.


And please take note of my Doyle quote in my signature. An absence of evidence is no basis to form a theory.

reply to post by Welfhard


Background noise would not show sudden spikes as the repeated atomic blast would create.