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Make me a believe please.

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posted on Apr, 23 2011 @ 06:29 PM

I just read a very interesting book called The Power of Now. It is actually quite popular for changing your life for the better, getting out of depression, etc. But concerning your concern, the book mentions how you find God. And it's interesting because you don't really have to find him anywhere, because according to the book, he is actually inside you whether your are aware of the fact or not. So you only have to look inside yourself, and you'll find evidence that there is a power there that is greater than time itself. (I mention time because God said in the Bible "I am that I am." There is no was or will be. He is. He exists in present time just as he always has existed in present time with all of eternity in one moment, now. This is the theme of the book, The Power of Now. Living in the now allows you to see life's true beauty and radiance.)

Take in mind this is according to the book, however, I recommend reading it if you have a chance, because it cannot hurt, and it might lead you to your answer. In his book, he tells how you can look inside yourself to see that God, what the author also calls Presence, is in your own body, which also means, you don't have to go to Church to take solace in Presence. You just have to live in the now. One might use Church, however, to more easily access the Now, as being in Church can be a very peaceful experience, especially when you are sitting quietly all by yourself, but also, it is not necessary.

posted on Apr, 23 2011 @ 06:35 PM
reply to post by TheAmused

Oi there mate...

If you want to believe truely.... read this.

and understand, perhaps that will help

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 12:52 PM
reply to post by Akragon

The atonement doctrine

Let me begin with a short discussion of the historical beliefs and attitudes that led to the atonement doctrine. The early Hebrews believed that "without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin." (Heb. 9:22) They accepted the primitive idea that God could not be appeased except through blood sacrifice. Moses made a distinct advance in that he forbade human sacrifice and substituted instead the ceremonial sacrifice of animals.

This concept of ceremonial sacrifice was preserved, in principle, by the apostle Paul as the doctrine of atonement for sin through the sacrificial death of Jesus. Paul, however, went beyond Moses and the Jewish teachers in that he expounded theories of original sin, hereditary guilt, and innate evil. Paul was a great man; he more than anyone else was responsible for bringing Jesus' teachings to the world. But he also injected a number of his own ideas which were not taught by Jesus, and indeed, were at variance with the teachings of his Master.

I emphasize that human teachers such as Paul were not only fallible but made a serious blunder in promoting the atonement doctrine. I believe we need to make a fundamental distinction between the teachings of Jesus and those of the human followers of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God as well as the Son of Man and his life and teachings are a divine revelation. Therefore, I believe that we should look to Jesus first, and judge all other teachings by their harmony with his life and teachings.

Accordingly, the first reason I would cite in defense of my belief that the atonement doctrine is in error is that it is not harmonious with Jesus' revelation of God as our loving heavenly Father. While the ancient Jews taught the necessity of sacrifice, Jesus, in his life and teachings, revealed a God of love, mercy, and forgiveness. The Old Testament prophets and the New Testament teachers recognized God but not with the insight, clarity, and perfection of Jesus. Although Jesus' God is just and righteous, it is love -- the heavenly Father's perfect love for his human children -- that is the defining characteristic of his teachings. This concept of God as our loving heavenly Father was the only concept, besides acknowledging God as a spiritual being, that Jesus ever taught. He said, "God is love," and in his teachings God's love is supreme over justice and all other divine attributes.

The ancient Jews had conceived of God as a harsh king-judge. They believed that the only approach to God was through fasting and sacrifice. They felt that racial guilt had separated them from God and that sacrifice was necessary to appease his divine wrath. Paul's atonement doctrine grew out of these beliefs.

But such a God sounds little like the God of Jesus. He taught that God's attitude toward us is that of a Fatherly affection -- he loves us as his sons and daughters. This fatherly affection is the dominant characteristic of the God revealed by Jesus. God's loving forgiveness is always open to us; we must only seek it and be forgiving of others. Jesus revealed this in the prayer he taught his apostles: "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." God's love is not held hostage to an inflexible justice that cannot forgive until a totally innocent Son is sacrificed in remission of sin.

This brings me to the second problem I find in the atonement doctrine. It assumes a lower conception of God than is presented by Jesus' life and teachings. Indeed, the conception of a father who will not forgive his erring children until an entirely innocent elder brother dies as a human sacrifice sounds barbaric. We would expect more even from a human father. This conception is a relic of ancient times and primitive beliefs, ideas, and practices which Jesus came to free us from. He brought a new and higher revelation of God; and in his life he sought to free believers from the Jewish system of ceremony and sacrifice.

The last argument I would advance in opposition to the atonement doctrine is that it was not taught by Jesus. Isn't it reasonable to assume that if Jesus' purpose in living his bestowal life on our world was to die on the cross for our sins, he would have emphasized this doctrine? But Jesus did not teach the necessity of sacrificing himself for man's sins; instead he consistently focused on the Kingdom of God.

There are other problems with the atonement doctrine. In particular, it tends to mask Jesus' true teachings of the kingdom of heaven. In his message, the gospel of the kingdom, Jesus taught that God is our loving heavenly Father and we are his sons and daughters. We are called to live a life of faith in our Father's love and over-care, to trust in God as Jesus trusted God, to trust Him as a little child trusts his earthly father.

Jesus' emphasis was always on the kingdom of heaven -- the rule of God in the hearts of his sons and daughters. The prayer he taught his apostles reveals this central teaching: "Your kingdom come; your will be done." He identified the kingdom of God with the will of God and taught that we enter the kingdom by the inner submission of our will to God's will. It is this teaching that Jesus held supreme; he did not teach the atonement doctrine.

Paul taught the atonement doctrine to help make Jesus more acceptable to the Jews, and to try to explain the seemingly inexplicable fact that the Creator (John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2) of our universe was killed by his own creatures.

Jesus' death was significant; it was the final act of a life of love and service bestowed upon mortal man. The great thing about Jesus' death was the way he died, the magnificent spirit in which he met that death. His final prayer, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do," is Jesus' final demonstration of the love and forgiveness of our heavenly Father.

In Gethsemane Jesus sought to avoid his death if this choice would be consistent with the Father's will. He prayed, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me." But his purpose was to live the full human life of his earth creatures. And in a human life we cannot usually have our death avoided or taken away. So Jesus submitted himself to death on the cross, a death brought about by men -- not by God. It was God's will that Jesus finish his human bestowal, even though it included "drinking the cup" of death at the hands of his enemies.

Jesus' courage and selfless devotion to the service of man and God in his crucifixion inspires us onward. It was the final act of a life of service. "Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends." Jesus lived a life of service, revealing truth to humankind, and he courageously and selflessly submitted to the death that truth teachers must often face.

After Jesus had asked if the cup might be removed, he finished the prayer with the words, "Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done." This prayer -- not the atonement of Jesus -- is the key to our salvation. We are saved not by Jesus' death on the cross but by our faith submission to God's will. This is evident from the fact that believing in "the blood of Christ" will not save someone who does not faithfully choose to live in accordance with the Father's will. And such a choice of God's will over our own personal will can be made independently of the death of Jesus.

Although I believe it is incorrect to refer to Jesus as our redeemer, he is truly our savior. For even though the way to salvation was open before Jesus lived, he, in his bestowal life, did truly make the way of salvation more clear to humanity. His life and teachings are our lighthouse, our certain and infallible guide to salvation. Certainly we may gain much from the teaching of his well-meaning followers, but we must also recognize that they were human and fallible. Jesus is divine and his teachings are perfect; they are the touchstone by which all other teachings should be judged.

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 01:26 PM
reply to post by UB2120

I thought you said a "short discussion"...

This looks like an essay...

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 01:41 PM
reply to post by Akragon

The narrow columns of this forum make stuff look bigger than it is. I had this in Word first and it was less than a page. How about you comment on what it says instead of the size.

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 01:44 PM
reply to post by TheAmused

First of all, I hope your OP is sincere and true, and not just challenging believers to prove God's existence for the "amusement" of it.

I won't offer proof of anything. All I can tell you is what I would try in your situation.

I love my husband more than ANYTHING and living my life with him is very high on my life priority list. If he became interested in something and really wanted me to try it. I probably would. As I know my husband now, he would NEVER put pressure on me to do something, but he might pressure me to just try it, so I would.

I would find a way to make a compromise so that I would go to church with him sometimes (like twice a month for 6 months) and I would commit to do it for that period of time and then I would reevaluate and decide whether or not I wanted to continue. I would let him know all of this up front. We would have to come to an actual agreement.

I would make it known that I already had my beliefs and had no intention of changing them.
I would make it very clear that I was doing it because he asked and not because I was looking for something.
I would make sure he knew that this was a trial, not a indefinite commitment.

During the 6 months, I would do my best to remain open-minded, and I would probably use my own kind of translations to apply to the preacher's sermon. For example, I would think of "God" in terms of something that was comfortable to me - not necessarily the God of the bible. "Prayer" would be a quiet meditative contemplation, not my own personal communication with the biblical God. I would probably quietly chuckle at some of the translations I was hearing, but there are MANY good lessons and stories in the bible, so listening to someone remind me of them wouldn't be a terrible thing. Of course it all depends on the denomination of the church your wife attends... some are more liberal than others. I wouldn't do so well with the Fire and Brimstone kind.

I would not sell out myself or my beliefs (I'm an atheist), but I would find a way to somewhat mesh or translate my beliefs to the church's for a time, so I could fulfill the commitment to try this for my husband and my marriage. If, after the 6 months, I decided that I no longer wanted to go and he still begged me to go, I would consider that my husband and our marriage was in serious trouble. Because after giving it that honest effort, if he wasn't satisfied and continued to bug me about going, I would consider that very disrespectful of me and somewhat 'cultish' behavior on his part.

Having said all of that, if your wife is going to a fundamental or evangelical church and she got saved and baptized, I gotta say, I doubt that she'd go for the agreement or compromise, but I don't know her and I'm generalizing.

Originally posted by jennybee35
You'll be His this very day.

That creeps me out.
edit on 4/30/2011 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 02:04 PM

Originally posted by UB2120
reply to post by Akragon

The narrow columns of this forum make stuff look bigger than it is. I had this in Word first and it was less than a page. How about you comment on what it says instead of the size.

actually i have no comment other then the length... It seems like you understand, i guess time will tell though...I'll see you around

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 02:06 PM
Beloved, in response to your post, no man can make you a believer; only he that created you can fashion your spirit into believing, and belief comes by experience. In understanding that you do not have the power of life and death, that in itself is reason to believe in a greater in whose power lies your existance.

Belief has nothing to do with religiosity: for religiosity is the death of the soul, faith is the anchor of the soul, love is the light of life, and life is God: for in him all things exist. Religion incites fear, and fear is the power of death: he that incites fear lives by fear, and fear becomes his death. Religious ministers use religion for their personal gain: they incite fear in you so as to exact/extort from you; thus 2nd Corinthians 11 tells you not to marvel: for as Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, so also do his minsters. True ministers of light do not confound light, but expound reflectively the true light of life.

All things became by Life, a phenomena that cannot be perceived through natural human senses, and thus it is commonly debated, qualified and quantified, without yet coming to the full understanding it: thus the many misconceptions. You were created with great intelligence; but that intelligence is for a higher ordination that transcends the natural world: you are still being fashioned for this greater dimension, and you are simply refining your intelligence in your exercises/creativity, in preparation for that transcendent glory: and the phenomena of that glory is the phenomena of his being, hence it might seem veiled, because you cannot now percieve it.

He that is making you is above all things: for in him all things exist; he needs nothing from you: for he knows in time you will glorify him, even as a glorious creature brings glory to its creator. He is light, and light is glorified in that which it manifests; he cannot be quantified, being illimitable, nor qaulified: for no one can know him yet, untill they have been perfected into his glory. He is without a name, in that there was no one before him to give him a name: though man refers to him as God; and man has crowned many gods out of ignorance.

He is the pure Energy/Spirit in whose light all things are glorified, without which nothing can be glorified, yet whom no creature knows as yet to glorify. His very essence permeates love: for in that he is above all things, love became by him; and love is the light of life: therefore you can only see his true light through love and not through religiosity. Everyone is created a vessel of light, and each vessel's light is kindled at its appointed time. You can maintain your marriage by being a light to your wife: for that is your duty to your wife; and if you need to understand these things better, go to and be nourished.

An dear UB2120, there is a divine reason for the atonement; it determines the strength of your faith: for if you are willing to give up something so precious as your life for the love of another without fearing what lies after, inspite of not having seen the after, then you have faith in understanding the divinity of your spirit and the power of love; even Jesus had this fear, though he trusted in love over self, as evidenced in the gospels; and the same test was put before Abraham regarding Isaac. But Christ, having taking on the power of Life/Spirit/God upon his resurrection, guarantees you life eternal when your time comes to transition; but you must complete your refiinement to be perfected; and part of that refinement is the second coming of Christ. Peace be with you!!!

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 03:04 PM
reply to post by Olise

The faith Jesus taught is the belief in the unseen Father, not in the shedding of blood to apease a wrathful God. That is how primitive man saw God and this is not the God Jesus taught. I would like to share a quote from The Urantia Book with you. This is from paper 188:

Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the "World of the Cross."

Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master's death.

Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil-doing of his ancestors. Neither was the Master's death on the cross a sacrifice which consisted in an effort to pay God a debt which the race of mankind had come to owe him.

Before Jesus lived on earth, you might possibly have been justified in believing in such a God, but not since the Master lived and died among your fellow mortals. Moses taught the dignity and justice of a Creator God; but Jesus portrayed the love and mercy of a heavenly Father.

The animal nature—the tendency toward evil-doing—may be hereditary, but sin is not transmitted from parent to child. Sin is the act of conscious and deliberate rebellion against the Father's will and the Sons' laws by an individual will creature.

Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia, it is nevertheless a fact that his bestowal on this world greatly illuminated the way of salvation; his death did much to make forever plain the certainty of mortal survival after death in the flesh.

Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.

When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one's fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer's chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one's fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

The great thing about the death of Jesus, as it is related to the enrichment of human experience and the enlargement of the way of salvation, is not the fact of his death but rather the superb manner and the matchless spirit in which he met death.

This entire idea of the ransom of the atonement places salvation upon a plane of unreality; such a concept is purely philosophic. Human salvation is real; it is based on two realities which may be grasped by the creature's faith and thereby become incorporated into individual human experience: the fact of the fatherhood of God and its correlated truth, the brotherhood of man. It is true, after all, that you are to be "forgiven your debts, even as you forgive your

edit on 30-4-2011 by UB2120 because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 04:04 PM
reply to post by UB2120

Dear UB2120, you have been waiting for the opportunity to spill a tell-tale; go back above to my comment on the subject matter and read it again, comparing it to what you are trying to say, and tell me what has prompted such an outbust and desire to relay a tell-tale; or then again pick up the book that ragards the purpose of the mission of Jesus and discern what it says. It is one thing to present a tell-tale, it is another to know and understand what you are talking about: I do not speak what I read, I speak to you what I KNOW!

If all things exist in God, and he is above all things, he does not need to be appeased: for he is the one doing the work in all his creatures. If you are being refined, then along the way you have to be shown what you are being refined in, about and for; and that example was shown you in Christ: for it is the way your Maker chose to explain to you the very essence of his being, which is love.

posted on Apr, 30 2011 @ 05:00 PM
reply to post by Olise

A tell-tale? Why would you say that? I know exactly what I'm trying to say and that is the idea about a wrathful God is wrong. That he requires sacrifice is wrong and primitive. To teach that Jesus' only purpose was to die on a cross is wrong. If that were the case wouldn't that have been burden of his message? He taught about God and his loving nature. He did not teach about a wrathful God a sacrifice seeking God. Do you consider that a tell-tale?

posted on May, 1 2011 @ 11:26 AM
reply to post by TheAmused

You can't really make yourself believe. Belief is a matter of personal conviction...I personally only try to believe things that I can support with important things like reason and evidence.

posted on May, 2 2011 @ 01:25 PM
reply to post by UB2120

Dear UB2120, you are not far from the truth in your thinking, you just need to uunderstand the purpose of the sacrificial offering and salvation. To start with, you are right regarding God not being a wrathful God, and the sacrifice of Jesus not to appease a wrathful God; but in that you state that Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Uranthia, an inhabited planet of mortals other than earth, is a tell-tale; and if it leads you away from the true purpose of the saccrificial offering, then you are believing in a tell-tale.

Jesus focused on the kingdom of God because he wanted you to understand the workings of the kingdom and the wisdom of God: for that is where you came from and to it shall you return; but to return you must first complete your refinement, for which reason you were birthed into earth in mortal form: thus Leviticus 25: 23, "You are strangers and sojourners with me on earth". The sacrificial offering is a part of your refinement, a lesson in love. The sacrificial offering is not an end of life: for life is an eternal phenomena, and God is life; but the assurance that the death of the flesh is not an end: for the resurrection assures you the beginning of living in a glory you are yet to understand. For the beauty of a creation is not in its making, but in its finished glory.

Its called a sacrificial offering because he sacrificed his life to teach you love, not knowing as of then, being yet in mortal flesh, hence Son of man, if he will actually resurrect, being the first to complete the refining process and be translated into glory. The pioneer is always afraid of the unknown, evidenced in the prayer at Gethsemane (discern John 18: 1, and relate it to 2nd Samuel 15: 23, understanding that Wilderness is the unproven); but having fulfilled this, you also are assured of the same result at the end of your refinement: for as Paul stated to you in Romans 14, God is able to perfect his creation.

You stated, "Jesus' death was significant; it was the final act of a life of love and service bestowed upon mortal man." Exactly; a life offered in love a sacrifice to all, offered an example for others to understand the work their Creator is doing in them; but not only the work, but also the essence of the very nature of their Creator and that which they are being refined into. You are a vessel being refined to bear the light of your Creator: the eye does not see light, it sees that which the light manifests. And thus, as you even acknowledged, Jesus said, Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends: to be a proof for his freinds. That is sacrifice!

And regarding your statement that you are saved only by your faith submission to God's will, know this, you can only submitt to something you know and trust, unless you are forced into submission; this statement insinuates that those who do not know God are damned. God, your Creator, can make of you whatsoever he desires to make you into; he has created you, and now he is fashioning you into the glory of his image, part of which is to be permeated by love, for which reason he fulfilled a pattern for you in Jesus, as the general mind was made to understand patterns, and thus the patterns given in Moses. And all patterns regarding the kingdom of God shall be fulfilled, else he would not have created them. He does not need to force you; he is fulfilling his will in you.

And regarding salvation, you are being saved from the prince of this world and his deceptive and captivating doctrine of religiosity, through which he turns you against each other; and understand that it is in reacting to his divisive force that you find yourself exercising love. Christ overcoming the world manifests victory in love!

Peace be with you: for you are beloved!!!

posted on May, 6 2011 @ 03:44 PM
reply to post by Olise

First off, you misunderstood what I am talking about. Urantia is simply a name for Earth. So I am not sure what you meant by saying: "but in that you state that Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Uranthia, an inhabited planet of mortals other than earth, is a tell-tale".

As I said before: When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

Sacrifice is an ancient belief that has hung on the coat tails of different religions for thousands of years. It is based on a religion of fear. Do this or else, give this up or else. It's time we got beyond that. No loving, caring human father would require that one child pay for the wrongs of another child. If a human father can show that kind of love, how much more love would God the Father show? I understand why you cling to those beliefs, they are the core of Paul's Christianity. It's time for the world to practice Jesus' religion. The fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. When did Jesus teach about scarifice? That's right he didn't.

posted on May, 6 2011 @ 05:32 PM
reply to post by TheAmused

So, OP, post a Thread, then disappear? Was it fun?

posted on May, 7 2011 @ 07:05 AM
This is how I came to Christianity - through the works of the Virgin Mary.

And before I start a tirade of Mary is a false prophet, hear my words, my story. Mary proved to me that everything in the bible is true. Every little thing. Jesus really did die. He really did rise again. He really is the saviour of mankind.

By knowing the mother of Jesus is real and cares about the human race I have realised that the son she bore is far greater. I understand that Jesus is the way the light and the truth and that no-one comes to the father except through him. I do not see her as a God or place higher importance upon her. I see her as a heavenly ambassador delivering a message from the almighty just like the angels in the biblical days of old.

I experienced the presence of Mary at an even in New Zealand that was attended by at least 2000 people. She spoke to me and she said 3 very simple sentences that changed my life: "My child, you are loved. Turn to my son, Jesus. He will show you the way"

Watch this video and see how Mary through the grace of God stopped a massacre in Egypt and know that God's love is real.

edit on 7-5-2011 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 7 2011 @ 04:00 PM
reply to post by markosity1973

This is nonsense, conjecture and subjective opinion.

We can't prove the immaculate conception either - perhaps the "Virgin" Mary really was a Jewish minx that told a lie.

posted on May, 8 2011 @ 01:28 AM
reply to post by awake_and_aware

Maybe you are correct. But there are literally millions of people around the world who have seen and experienced in mass events like this one. If you watch the video you will see that even the former Egyptian president and many government officials witnessed this event. The government even released a statement declaring this event to have actually happened.

If you are interested in debunking Mary and her appearances there is a good thread on it here that questions if they are a part of project blue beam. So far noone has been able to come up with any rational supporting evidence of the project blue beam theory. I would actually be genuinely interested to see some solid scientific and rational data that supports it if there is any to be found and revealed. The blue beam theory is a very interesting one that is worthy of consideration if it can be taken from the pages of crazy conspiracy tinfoil theory and proven to be at least plausible.

posted on May, 8 2011 @ 02:59 AM
Wait for a clear Moonless night, find some place very dark and very quiet, go there later in the evening when it's very quiet, sit down in an open field and close your eyes. Ask yourself what is there to believe in. What is there that speaks to something devine. Open your eyes, look up, and tell me what you see, and what that makes you feel.

posted on May, 8 2011 @ 06:02 AM
reply to post by markosity1973

Again, you highlight a lack of credibility in your own post.

-People could have been mistaken (drugs, mistaken for natural phenomenon, alcohol)
-It could have been a holographic trick used to gain a certain type of reaction (bluebook)
-Multiple people may be lying to fulfil a type of agenda (political/social/religious)

Another important points:-

-can't prove Mary existed
-can't prove immaculate conception (although it is possible, patheogenesis isn't unheard of)
-can't prove she gave birth to the Son of God.
-even if the immaculate conception is true, it doesn't verify that Jesus was any holier than you and i.

Subjective experience is not verifiable conviction for any given theory. Perhaps if i was present, i might have concluded something different.

I'm not about proving Mary didn't exist, she may have, i just don't buy the supernatural/miracle claims of dogma.

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