Creation & Evolution Both Partly True - Linked Together

Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe. Together they provide a total unified answer to everything.

Note: Im not religious. I am attempting to convey the logical understanding i have of God. The God i believe in does not watch over us, or intervene given prayer, or create life as we know it in an instant. My idea of God is the intelligent design behind the universe, where life is left to fend for itself within that design.

If we simply believe creation, then we subject ourselves to a narrow minded viewpoint, one which by many beliefs denounces clear and proven evidence for evolution as a key factor for life on earth. Someone i know who is Christian believes for instance that Dinosaurs came into existance around 6000 years ago and co-existed with man, but were wiped from the earth by God. Arguing against science he claims that carbon dating does not measure the age of fossils properly and is 100% wrong. He also believes that no life exists anywhere other than earth, that the universe is simply a 'light show' for mankind, to display God's power. And that the earth and all life was created instantly by a concious God. With Creation understood in this current form it fails to provide a logical answer and relies on people to push logic aside.

On the other side of the arguement, Evolution has one goal and that is to proove beyond a doubt that what Religion teaches about life's beginnings is false through utilisation of scientific measurement, theory and observation. Evolution is primarily geared to explain how life began to change at the begining, how species were able to adapt and result in what we see on earth when we observe the 100,000's of species. Evolution by itself can never accept Creation from the Religious view.

If we remove Religion from the equation for a moment and simply focus on Creation in its raw element, we can understand that the true God is the universe entirely. Our universe exists inside an infinite vast emptiness, endless and desolate void. The universe in its physical form is God and is also the design of God inside and out. The stars, our planet, life itself.. Is the embodiment of God's design.

How does this tie into Evolution? Well my belief is simply that God is the logical source of everything. God is the platform for the universe to exist, which is designed to flow through time and through this understanding we can see that the universe is capable of producing life in the rarest of circumstances. Life is an integral part of God's purpose, but God does not choose when and where life starts, God does not directly influence or control anything on earth, does not decide when mankind will perish and ultimately does not have a direct concious real time connection to life on earth. Time only exists within the physical universe.. Outside of which where time is not present, God gave design to the universe so that it already encorporated what is neccessary for life to begin and grow. We are merely a result of this design having worked as planned.

The concious intelligence of God is represented by the harmony and brilliance of our universe, everything we understand can be viewed as one of many functions/aspects of what/who God is.

1) You need to let go of the idea that God can directly influence life on earth.
2) It is the idea that God acts like an overseer for his creation that is wrong.
3) The design is God at the begining and the end, so any idea of an overseer is simply the ability to recognise the design flowing with the dimension of time.

Without evolution in the picture the world would only contain the most basic form of micro-organism. Life seeded without the capability to grow, expand, change and evolve, would not be life at all, it would not be anything as humans would not have come into being. Theorised by the representation of organisms stepping from one form to another due to neccessity caused by localised changes and other variables, evolution is the growth of this universal gem, into something ultimately brilliant.

Arguements against this idea:

Evolution is true but God does not have a role to play? Evolution can be prooven through observation, clearly there is truth behind the theory. But claiming Evolution is possible because the Universe let it happen, not God, is like saying the Universe has always been, the laws of physics are permanently embeded and the Big Bang simply released it all into a flurry of expanding gas, matter and energy, creating space and time and the universe we witness today. This is wrong because in a void it is impossible for a singularity to be present without purpose or origin. Beyond our universe is a void, subtract the current universe and you are left with nothing, for anything to begin you need a source and you need purpose.

If we follow evolution in its current form, we blindly believe that the Big Bang was present in a void with no reason or purpose. Essentially by that token we say the Big Bang originates from no where other than itself. This is an illogical loop of a belief, one which claims the Big Bang is the beginning and the Big Bang is the source of its own being. This is wrong, this can not be true, this is impossible.

To sumarise, Evolution alone accounts for the life on earth in its superb variety, but fails to address the origin of the universe which set the foundation for life to even be possible. Creation is not logical from the Religious viewpoint, it is only logical when God is understood to be the universe itself, which at its beginning had already set in place the design which allows for the seeding of life at a point in time when life supporting conditions are achieved.

I also believe in a little of both....not just one or the other...as evolution can not stop my car from going over a 100 ft. drop off at 50 mph and turn my car around, put it back on the highway, going the right way, in the right lane and leaving no tracks after seeing I was going to die and yelling "Dear God, Help Me".....So, here is where I have inserted a God of some kind....as some force that "Knows" did this for me...

Originally posted by sharpy777
Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe.

I stopped reading right there.

Evolution isn't about answering every question about the origin of this universe.

Originally posted by sharpy777
Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe. Together they provide a total unified answer to everything.

Note: Im not religious. I am attempting to convey the logical understanding i have of God. The God i believe in does not watch over us, or intervene given prayer, or create life as we know it in an instant. My idea of God is the intelligent design behind the universe, where life is left to fend for itself within that design.

If we simply believe creation, then we subject ourselves to a narrow minded viewpoint, one which by many beliefs denounces clear and proven evidence for evolution as a key factor for life on earth. Someone i know who is Christian believes for instance that Dinosaurs came into existance around 6000 years ago and co-existed with man, but were wiped from the earth by God. Arguing against science he claims that carbon dating does not measure the age of fossils properly and is 100% wrong. He also believes that no life exists anywhere other than earth, that the universe is simply a 'light show' for mankind, to display God's power. And that the earth and all life was created instantly by a concious God. With Creation understood in this current form it fails to provide a logical answer and relies on people to push logic aside.

On the other side of the arguement, Evolution has one goal and that is to proove beyond a doubt that what Religion teaches about life's beginnings is false through utilisation of scientific measurement, theory and observation. Evolution is primarily geared to explain how life began to change at the begining, how species were able to adapt and result in what we see on earth when we observe the 100,000's of species. Evolution by itself can never accept Creation from the Religious view.

If we remove Religion from the equation for a moment and simply focus on Creation in its raw element, we can understand that the true God is the universe entirely. Our universe exists inside an infinite vast emptiness, endless and desolate void. The universe in its physical form is God and is also the design of God inside and out. The stars, our planet, life itself.. Is the embodiment of God's design.

How does this tie into Evolution? Well my belief is simply that God is the logical source of everything. God is the platform for the universe to exist, which is designed to flow through time and through this understanding we can see that the universe is capable of producing life in the rarest of circumstances. Life is an integral part of God's purpose, but God does not choose when and where life starts, God does not directly influence or control anything on earth, does not decide when mankind will perish and ultimately does not have a direct concious real time connection to life on earth. Time only exists within the physical universe.. Outside of which where time is not present, God gave design to the universe so that it already encorporated what is neccessary for life to begin and grow. We are merely a result of this design having worked as planned.

The concious intelligence of God is represented by the harmony and brilliance of our universe, everything we understand can be viewed as one of many functions/aspects of what/who God is.

1) You need to let go of the idea that God can directly influence life on earth.
2) It is the idea that God acts like an overseer for his creation that is wrong.
3) The design is God at the begining and the end, so any idea of an overseer is simply the ability to recognise the design flowing with the dimension of time.

Without evolution in the picture the world would only contain the most basic form of micro-organism. Life seeded without the capability to grow, expand, change and evolve, would not be life at all, it would not be anything as humans would not have come into being. Theorised by the representation of organisms stepping from one form to another due to neccessity caused by localised changes and other variables, evolution is the growth of this universal gem, into something ultimately brilliant.

Arguements against this idea:

Evolution is true but God does not have a role to play? Evolution can be prooven through observation, clearly there is truth behind the theory. But claiming Evolution is possible because the Universe let it happen, not God, is like saying the Universe has always been, the laws of physics are permanently embeded and the Big Bang simply released it all into a flurry of expanding gas, matter and energy, creating space and time and the universe we witness today. This is wrong because in a void it is impossible for a singularity to be present without purpose or origin. Beyond our universe is a void, subtract the current universe and you are left with nothing, for anything to begin you need a source and you need purpose.

If we follow evolution in its current form, we blindly believe that the Big Bang was present in a void with no reason or purpose. Essentially by that token we say the Big Bang originates from no where other than itself. This is an illogical loop of a belief, one which claims the Big Bang is the beginning and the Big Bang is the source of its own being. This is wrong, this can not be true, this is impossible.

To sumarise, Evolution alone accounts for the life on earth in its superb variety, but fails to address the origin of the universe which set the foundation for life to even be possible. Creation is not logical from the Religious viewpoint, it is only logical when God is understood to be the universe itself, which at its beginning had already set in place the design which allows for the seeding of life at a point in time when life supporting conditions are achieved.

I ask you to do only one thing, physically pinch yourself and ask yourself, where did we come from?

The story of us evolving from apes is absured.

Our whole human history has been covered up, the evidence of a superior race is all over this planet, and still people want to be believe that we either evolved or were created, I just dont get it???????

Thank you! It appears that at least a few people get it. I've been saying essentially the same thing for years. It tends to tick off the hardcore believer on either side of the middle.

Originally posted by sharpy777
Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe. Together they provide a total unified answer to everything.

Evolution has nothing to do with trying to "answer every question about the origin of our universe". Any conversation which poses this as the purpose of the theory of evolution is going to automatically devolve into non sequitur almost instantly. The theory of evolution doesn't even speak to the origin of life, even though it's often accused of not answering the question of how life came to be. The theory of evolution is pertinent to one thing - changes in allele frequency over successive generations within a given population. It has nothing to do with the origin of the universe.

I believe in both as well..

The Ancient Alien Theory

It explains that yes, evolution can occur, but that it does not answer how mankind came on the scene

It explains that beings called 'gods' did in fact visit our planet and created us, but not in the hocus-pocus fashion taught by religious dogma

It states that the gods who came here (on a Earth mission) genetically engineered slaves (us) from the primate which had already evolved and their own DNA

Both evolution and creation are true

Originally posted by downunderET
The story of us evolving from apes is absured.

Actually it's very logical and backed up by a mountain of evidence.

Nice picture

Skulls are:
A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
(B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
(C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
(D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
(E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
(F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
(G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
(H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
(I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
(J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
(K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
(L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
(M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
(N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

To an objective mind it's easy to conclude that we were not created from dirt by some beard cloud guy who hates gays and people who don't have perfect visual perception.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
The Ancient Alien Theory

If it's a theory it should 1: make predictions, and 2: be falsifiable.

So what does it predict, and how can we test it?

reply to post by sharpy777
Sure it would be nice if God created a universe to circuitously appropriate itself through 14.5 billion years of historical contingency resulting in a charming little home for humans. These words you use, "mind", "design", "consciousness", only exist because we are here. I'm assuming your god is a source of mind. A mind so powerful and beyond comprehension, a mind sophisticated enough to create an impenetrable algorithm of design and diversity, where not even the slightest bit of randomness can invade. A grand assumption.

Our existence is a probability distribution, whose parameters involve all the cohort of possible pathways that life histories could emerge. The myriad mutations that could have arisen in all living things acting as a part of the local ecosystem, each having possible positions in design space that are currently not being expressed, yet filled with alternatives of sufficient "fitness." The vanishing probability of the mass extinctions occurring in sequence, attributing to all major life changes and events. Climate changes, solar and planetary activity, the behavior of distant nebulae. All attribute to the evolution of human consciousness. And God planned it the entire way?

This psychological need to grasp at the idea of something greater is ironically a necessary quality for those species burdened with the capacities of mind, foresight, and abstraction. Though knowing what we do know, all the evidence, and the rigorous science attached to the rich accretion of data accumulated over the last 2 million years of a mind, has rendered the notion of god superfluous, a viral meme that is only good at making copies of itself. A meme that serves nothing to promote our reproductive fitness.

Originally posted by AxlJones

Originally posted by sharpy777
Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe.

I stopped reading right there.

Evolution isn't about answering every question about the origin of this universe.

Apologies, i was in a rush to leave towards the end of my thread so i didnt have time to read over it.

The point i am trying to make is, that if Evolution is proven to be the true answer to why life exists in its current state, then it would mean Religion as we understand from the Bible, is false. So Evolution essentially provides half of the puzzle and by being correct makes Religion false, therefore removing any form of Creation from the equation.

At the present time Creation has no place next to Evolution when you guage peoples opinions.

I guess what im saying is, i think Evolution should not provide a static framework that teaches people, that if Evolution is correct, no form of Creation can also be correct.

I challenge this idea and argue that Creation is indeed the source which made Evolution possible.

I ask you to do only one thing, physically pinch yourself and ask yourself, where did we come from?

The story of us evolving from apes is absured.

Our whole human history has been covered up, the evidence of a superior race is all over this planet, and still people want to be believe that we either evolved or were created, I just dont get it???????

Is your reply serious or just another subtle joke?

Right.. Ok this superior race how did they come into being? I guess they were just superior in the first instance when they drew breath for the first time? Superior races arent born superior, they work towards it and by that arguement they must have started out less superior and before being less superior they were probably of average intelligence and so forth, you work your way back to a time when this race you speak of was nothing more than primitive.

Originally posted by iterationzero

Originally posted by sharpy777
Creation is true but Religion has corrupted the logical truth of creation. Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe. Together they provide a total unified answer to everything.

Evolution has nothing to do with trying to "answer every question about the origin of our universe". Any conversation which poses this as the purpose of the theory of evolution is going to automatically devolve into non sequitur almost instantly. The theory of evolution doesn't even speak to the origin of life, even though it's often accused of not answering the question of how life came to be. The theory of evolution is pertinent to one thing - changes in allele frequency over successive generations within a given population. It has nothing to do with the origin of the universe.

I cant edit my thread for some reason.. Think i should have proof read what i wrote before submiting it, there's a couple errors i see.

But in response to your comment, my point is to do away with this idea that a lot of people have which goes, if Evolution is correct, Creation is wrong.

I probably should have worded my thread so that it was based around the above point.

Originally posted by uva3021
reply to post by sharpy777

 

Sure it would be nice if God created a universe to circuitously appropriate itself through 14.5 billion years of historical contingency resulting in a charming little home for humans. These words you use, "mind", "design", "consciousness", only exist because we are here. I'm assuming your god is a source of mind. A mind so powerful and beyond comprehension, a mind sophisticated enough to create an impenetrable algorithm of design and diversity, where not even the slightest bit of randomness can invade. A grand assumption.

Our existence is a probability distribution, whose parameters involve all the cohort of possible pathways that life histories could emerge. The myriad mutations that could have arisen in all living things acting as a part of the local ecosystem, each having possible positions in design space that are currently not being expressed, yet filled with alternatives of sufficient "fitness." The vanishing probability of the mass extinctions occurring in sequence, attributing to all major life changes and events. Climate changes, solar and planetary activity, the behavior of distant nebulae. All attribute to the evolution of human consciousness. And God planned it the entire way?

This psychological need to grasp at the idea of something greater is ironically a necessary quality for those species burdened with the capacities of mind, foresight, and abstraction. Though knowing what we do know, all the evidence, and the rigorous science attached to the rich accretion of data accumulated over the last 2 million years of a mind, has rendered the notion of god superfluous, a viral meme that is only good at making copies of itself. A meme that serves nothing to promote our reproductive fitness.

edit on 15-4-2011 by uva3021 because: (no reason given)

First point I did not say that the universe was designed with a pre-configured birth of the planet Earth and the human race at 14.5 billion years. On the second point i never said this design was impenetrable and did not allow random events to occur. Your interpretation is another viewpoint for Religious based Creationism, where everything is set and was set by God.

You completely misunderstood me.

God is the universe, but has no active presence here. God merely created the universe, mass, energy and the framework which we interpret through scientific study, which results in the understanding of Physics etc.

This design was completed outside the dimension of time and was therefore set before the universe burst into light, you might argue the design has always been set.

Does this design have scheduled plans? NO it definately does not have any planned events, planned intelligent beings or anything along those lines. Saying things were planned is Religious ho-ha. My entire thread and point of opinion was to highlight how this idea is absurd and illogical.

You want to know how i believe we ended up here? The universe design allows for life anywhere, at any time, given the optimal set of conditions. Earth is simply one of these moments in time where the universe by its design allowed life to begin as a result of all conditions being met. This was not planned, it was random, the fact we exist 14.5 billion years after the Big Bang is random, everything about our time, place and who we are is random, but the universe which was designed in such a way, was not random, in fact it was designed to allow for life anywhere, at any time, only if the conditions are met.

Is that to say, the design accross the board only forms life on planets with oceans, land mass covered by vegetation, oxygen and blue skys? Definately not, but it so happens thats what go us here, it doesnt mean the design restircts life to the conditions preseted on Earth. It just prooves that Earth was one of those capable designs.

Originally posted by sharpy777
I cant edit my thread for some reason.. Think i should have proof read what i wrote before submiting it, there's a couple errors i see.

I believe that there's a time limit on editing posts. Once you cross it, you can't go back.

But in response to your comment, my point is to do away with this idea that a lot of people have which goes, if Evolution is correct, Creation is wrong.

Two points to raise here:

First, "creation" covers a very broad spectrum of beliefs. Everything from a creator that just kick-started the universe and walked away all the way up to young Earth creationists who feel that they're interpretation of a literal reading of Genesis is the only possible truth. I don't think a proponent of evolution would argue against the former as a function of the theory of evolution (they may well argue against it for other reasons, but there's no need to conflate the two). On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that proponents of evolution would argue against the latter end of the spectrum because there is an enormous amount of evidence that conflicts with young Earth creationism.

Second, I think it's more a matter of educating people on what the limits of the theory of evolution are in terms of subject matter. I'd argue, anecdotally, that proponents of evolution understand those limits. From my experience, even back when I was theistic, people who feel strongly that the Biblical account of creation is literally correct feel that the theory of evolution is an affront to their beliefs. They're arguments typically take the form of trying to poke holes in the theory of evolution as a means of proving their belief to be correct, which is a false duality. Also keep in mind that are a significant number of theists that have no issue with the theory of evolution.

reply to post by sharpy777

Sorry if I misinterpreted your OP, but if you are saying some entity, obviously infinitely more complex than the universe, set things in motion, and we are the by-product, then such a statement seems like a view for the desirable rather than drawn from thoughtful and sensible deliberation. It sounds like, because you understand how life works, you are simply trying not to offend others by reconciling the existence of god with a possible set of scenarios that involve "seed planting", or something similar. In other words, you're just trying to be nice. Nothing wrong with agree-ability, probably can make a lot of friends that way.

But in reality, there is absolutely no reason to believe there was a first cause of life that possessed a conscious quality, especially since consciousness was essentially a side consequence of a larger brain, and has no Darwinian features applied to its development (by Darwinian I don't mean evolution, I mean gradual accumulation of fitness).

There is no answer for either end. You can try as hard as you want but you will never get the answers you want while you are still alive. Be proud of whatever side you believe in and live right.

I have read Darwin and the entire Bible, and many other things on these topics when I was in the phase of trying to find a answer or a side to try an find the correct answers.

I will not get into deep discussion, but from what I have learned I decided in the end to believe in an actual intelligent design, or God.

Although I respect the works of many who disagree, they live what they believe and I live what I believe. And just because we disagree doesn't make either side more right or wrong.

reply to post by sharpy777

Evolution is also true, but due to narrow minded views fails to answer every question about the origin of our universe.

Why would a theory about genetic change within populations have anything at all to do with the Big Bang and the origin of our Universe? You are aware that the planet formed about 4.5 Billion years ago right? That was about 10 billion years AFTER the Big Bang. Also, it is entirely unrealistic to think that we're ever going to answer every question. This is precisely the reasoning behind most fallacious attempts to shoehorn a God into our origin and the Universe, they're just sloppy attempts to fill a gap in our knowledge.

Arguing against science he claims that carbon dating does not measure the age of fossils properly and is 100% wrong.

Actually it quite depends on the fossil being worked with. Carbon dating generally can only date things about 60,000 years old with any accuracy. For most things that are older there are other radiometric dating methods. The idea that it's just carbon dating and nothing else is a misconception held by people on both sides of this debate.

On the other side of the arguement, Evolution has one goal and that is to proove beyond a doubt that what Religion teaches about life's beginnings is false through utilisation of scientific measurement, theory and observation.

No. This is absolutely wrong. Evolution did not set out to prove religion wrong it set out to find the truth, as all scientific endeavors do. Evolution is not anti-religious it is PRO-Evidence and pro-reality. If the evidence pointed toward Creation than Evolution would have never gotten off the ground. Instead the evidence points toward Evolution and continues to validate it consistently.

The universe in its physical form is God and is also the design of God inside and out.

I once had very similar ideas, that the Universe might itself be God. The issue with this is that its meaningless. It's just a renaming of the Universe for no reason. Arbitrarily calling the Universe God does no one any good.

The concious intelligence of God is represented by the harmony and brilliance of our universe, everything we understand can be viewed as one of many functions/aspects of what/who God is.

You mean what you PERCEIVE as harmony and brilliance. Why does there need to be something SUPERNATURAL for there to be NATURAL order? The Laws of Nature are simply descriptions of how things are observed to work, stating that they work this way only because of some unseen supernatural force tells us nothing.

But claiming Evolution is possible because the Universe let it happen, not God, is like saying the Universe has always been, the laws of physics are permanently embeded and the Big Bang simply released it all into a flurry of expanding gas, matter and energy, creating space and time and the universe we witness today.

The Universe didn't let anything happen, it has no WILL as far as we can tell. The Universe hasn't always been, at least not the way we know it today. I see no issue with thinking the Universe could come into being without a supernatural element at work and that order and natural law can exist in the Universe due to how physics works. There is no need to throw in an arbitrary supernatural being for which we have no evidence. It is much more honest to admit that there are things about the Universe we don't know rather than fallaciously fill that gap with a God.

To sumarise, Evolution alone accounts for the life on earth in its superb variety, but fails to address the origin of the universe which set the foundation for life to even be possible.

:bnghd:

Evolution doesn't have to explain anything beyond bio-diversity.

reply to post by SoulDominion
Darwin's book is 150+ years old. Reading Darwin's book is barely even an introduction into Darwinian science anymore, ironically enough. Read one modern thesis on the topic, one of the about 10 million publications, and your views would change.

You seem like a well-intended mind though, just a little undereducated on matters of evolution.

From what I understand you're ignoring the fact, either deliberately or accidentally, that there is an entire field of science dedicated to explaining the origins of the universe (cosmology). Evolution is wholly accurate. The mechanism by which it occurs is understood to enough of a degree in which it can be said to be true. Evolution isn't half of the puzzle either. Chemistry becomes Biology; the later includes evolution in explaining variation between life forms. Evolution only explains why there is variation and how that variation is achieved. Nothing else. When you want to know about the origins of life, google abiogenesis.

Why would you postulate that something that you can't explain (god) can explain something (the universe's existence) that can otherwise be explained through natural means? It's more likely that we're the energy from a match being struck in another universe than a deliberate creation by some super being.