Let's Get Biblical! Why doesn't Judaism accept the Christian Messiah?

reply to post by FeraVerto


So during the Passover seder, when the door is opened for Elijah, are you saying the physical Elijah is supposed to walk in or is it actually his presence in spirit only?

Same question for your circumcision ceremony - when a chair is in place for Elijah is he there physically or spiritually?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


So, you're trying to make a metaphorical Elijah? Go back and read my first post. Elijah in person will return; physical.

reply to post by FeraVerto


No, I'm trying to show you that his return can be in spirit form too. Just like he can show up at a circumcision ceremony, he can show up other places in spirit also.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Well we're not seeing eye to eye with the return of Elijah. Traditional Judaism has always stated Elijah will return in physical form. Like how he departed from the Earth. What do you get from my first post?

reply to post by FeraVerto


I know we are not and I just want you to give me a fair chance. I know you don't know me but I really am a good person and I wouldn't misguide you. I went back and looked at your first post, you quoted Malachi. It does not say he will return physically it just says he will come to "pave the way."

Can we at least agree that it could possibly be either way?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I guess so. I'm not trying to bully into a corner. It is really difficult trying to understand where you're coming from. Life is good I guess.

reply to post by FeraVerto


I know you are not. Okay if the Messiah is here in spirit and and he is supposed to come and dwell inside us, I'm going to have to come up with a really good explanation for not only Elijah but John the Baptist as well. I'm talking a return in spirit form only.

Would you agree with that?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Something tells me I already know where you're going to come from with John the Baptist and Elijah. In my view John the Baptist denied being Elijah in Christian text. John 1:21 And they asked him (John), "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you that prophet?" and he answered them, "no."

Matthew 11:11-14
"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist...14: And if you are will to accept it, he is the Elijah to come.

In Malachi it mentions G-d will Elijah which sounds like he will be hear Physical. I do not see John the Baptist as Elijah reincarnated. Since Elijah went up to heaven or to be with G-d in the past.

reply to post by FeraVerto


Exactly. The christian text says a couple other things about it as well. I just want to get to the point and give you some things to ponder tonight.

Can I send you a u2u? I've never shared these things with anyone but my family. Would that be okay?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


You're welcome anytime!
I have a lot of time on my hands.

Who is the Suffering Servant?
I'm writing this ti give a detail view on the differences between the Jewish and Christian view of the Suffering Servant. A quick general summery. For people who do not care about reading a lot.
Source
Who is the suffering servant of the Lord?

"And he said to me,'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.'" Isaiah 49:3 (NRS)

The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant. Moreover, the history of Israel, down through the ages shows that the servant is, none other than Israel personified. Chapter 53 reiterates this fact by providing an historic overview of the tragedies and triumphs of the servant, Israel, throughout its history. Who would believe that this exiled nation, this humiliated loathsome Jewish people would be fated to survive the vicissitudes of its historical sufferings to once more have a future entailing prominence, hope, and joy.

Jewish tradition views Israel (The Jewish People) as the Suffering Servant of the Lord. Because of all the hardships we endure.
Jews for Judaism articles
Outreach Judaism article on the Suffering Servant
Messiah Truth: Suffering Servant part 1
Suffering Servant overview
Suffering Servant another link

The first century Jewish clergy rejected Jesus Christ, and then people followed there lead. And it has never really changed. It was more than rejection, they incited the Romans to kill the Messiah. And the people even willing accepted the blood guilt.

Matthew 27: 22-25

Pilate said to them, Then what shall I do with Jesus Who is called Christ?
23They all replied, Let Him be crucified! And he said, Why? What has He done that is evil? But they shouted all the louder, Let Him be crucified!
24So when Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but rather that a riot was about to break out, he took water and washed his hands in the presence of the crowd, saying, I am not guilty of nor responsible for this righteous Man's blood; see to it yourselves.
25And all the people answered, Let His blood be on us and on our children!

And that blood did come upon their children as the Jewish seat of worship was eradicated by the Romans in
70 AD By General Titus, Finally the last vestiges of Jewish independence was wiped out in 73 AD at Masada of the 960 that died mostly by mass suicide, it is likely that the last blood of the children was spilt and the price of the blood oath was paid and ended.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Well Jesus wasn't the Messiah so, who killed Jesus? The Jews or the Romans?
Who killed Jesus?
Read this link to read an interesting article on who killed Jesus?
So, are you bringing up that Jews should feel guilty about Jesus in any shape or forum? The death of Jesus in the Christian faith goes against every teaching of G-d.
Could Jesus death atone for any sin?
You need to state your sources. Because you'll be surprised what you don't know.

reply to post by FeraVerto


Christ was/is the Messiah, I have studied this very thoroughly, and you my friend have been blinded by sources that are interested in keeping you in the dark. My source is the Jewish Torah( old testament) for prophesy.
And the new testament for confirmation of that same same prophesy. Have you even studied or know about the prophesy of 70 weeks?
I will post this picture so that it easy for you to understand.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8685b9cdfd36.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I always get this from Christians. How can you not see Jesus is the Messiah? We have your holy book. Which is the OT in Christian text. You'll be surprised how different the translations are between Jewish and Christian text.
This link offers where I'm coming from on the differences between Jewish and Christian scripture. Hopefully this gives a good example how we see the scripture differently. I wanted to get the general information out. You can read the entire article if you want to.
Psalm discussion

To understand the extent and the manner in which the church tampered with the Jewish scriptures, let's examine the verse that you insist "proves" that Jesus is the messiah. Psalm 22:16 in the King James Version (KJV) reads, Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. It isn't difficult to understand why Christians are so confident that this verse contains a clear reference to Jesus' crucifixion. Of whom, missionaries ask, other than Jesus, could the Psalmist be speaking? To which other individual in history, whose hands and feet were pierced, could the Bible be referring?

Apparently, you were so impressed by this argument that you wondered how a rabbi like myself could miss this obvious reference to Jesus' crucifixion. Paradoxically, well-educated Jews are utterly repelled by the manner in which the church rendered the words of Psalm 22:17.

Although in a Jewish Bible this verse appears as Psalm 22:17, in a Christian Bible it appears as 22:16. So as not to create confusion, I refer to this controversial verse as Psalm 22:17 throughout this article.

To understand how Christian translators rewrote the words of King David, let's examine the original Hebrew words of this verse with a proper translation. Dogs have encompassed me. A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

Notice that when the original words of the Psalmist are read, any allusion to a crucifixion disappears. The insertion of the word "pierced" into the last clause of this verse is a not-too-ingenious Christian interpolation that was created by deliberately mistranslating the Hebrew word kaari as "pierced." The word kaari, however, does not mean "pierced," it means "like a lion." The end of Psalm 22:17, therefore, properly reads "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet." Had King David wished to write the word "pierced," he would never use the Hebrew word kaari. Instead, he would have written either daqar or ratza, which are common Hebrew words in the Jewish scriptures. Needless to say, the phrase "they pierced my hands and my feet" is a Christian contrivance that appears nowhere in the Jewish scriptures. Bear in mind, this stunning mistranslation in the 22nd Psalm did not occur because Christian translators were unaware of the correct meaning of this Hebrew word. Clearly, this was not the case. The word kaari can be found in a number of other places in the Jewish scriptures. Yet predictably, the same Christian translators who rendered kaari as "pierced" in Psalm 22 correctly translated it "like a lion" in all other places in the Hebrew Bible where this word appears.

For example, the word kaari is also found in Isaiah 38:13. In the immediate context of this verse Hezekiah, the king of Judah, is singing a song for deliverance from his grave illness. In the midst of his supplication he exclaims in Hebrew Notice that the last word in this phrase (moving from right to left) is the same Hebrew word kaari that appears in Psalm 22:17. In this Isaiah text, the King James Version correctly translates these words "I reckoned till morning that, as a lion . . . ." As I mentioned above, Psalm 22:17 is the only place in all of the Jewish scriptures that any Christian Bible translates kaari as "pierced."

It must be noted that the authors of the New Testament were not responsible for inserting the word "pierced" into the text of Psalm 22:17. This verse was undoubtedly tampered with years after the Christian canon was completed. Bear in mind, during the latter half of the first century, when the New Testament writers were compiling their Greek manuscripts, Psalm 22:17 was still in pristine condition; thus, when the authors of the New Testament read this verse, they found nothing in the phrase "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet" that would advance their teachings. As a result, Psalm 22:17 is never quoted in the New Testament. Missionaries, who insist that the Christian translation of this verse reflects the original words of King David, must wonder why there was not one New Testament author who deemed this supposed allusion to the crucifixion worthy of being mentioned in his writings.

The Bible tampering that has occurred in this verse becomes especially obvious with only a cursory reading of the entire 22nd Psalm. Throughout this chapter, King David is using an animal motif to describe his enemies. His poignant references to the "dog" and "lion" are, therefore, not foreign to this author. In fact, David repeatedly makes reference to the "dog" and "lion" both before and after Psalm 22:17. For the Psalmist, these menacing beasts symbolize his bitter foes who continuously sought to destroy him. This metaphor, therefore, sets the stage for the moving theme of this chapter. Although David's predicament at times seems hopeless, this faithful king of the Jewish people relied on God for his deliverance. As the Psalmist eagerly looks to God for deliverance from his adversaries, he conveys the timeless message that it is the Almighty alone who can save man in times of tribulation. Let's examine a number of verses in this chapter that surround Psalm 22:17 as they appear in the King James Version.

Psalm 22:12-13 (KJV)

Many bulls have compassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me around. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravenous and a roaring lion.

Psalm 22:20-21 (KJV)

Deliver my soul from the sword, my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth; for thou hast heard me from horns of the wild oxen.

As mentioned above, it is obvious when reading this larger section of the 22nd Psalm that King David is using an animal motif -- most commonly lions -- as an animated literary device, in order to describe his pursuers and tormentors. This striking style is pervasive in this section of the Bible. In fact, each and every time the word "lion" appears in the Book of Psalms, King David is referring to a metaphoric lion, rather than a literal animal.

For example, in the 17th Psalm King David appeals to the Almighty to rescue him from the hands of his enemies, the "lion." Bear in mind, an examination of the 17th Psalm is of great relevance to our study because in many respects Psalm 17 and 22 are identical, both with regard to their literary motif and driving theme. In the 17th Psalm, King David is looking for deliverance from his adversaries as in Psalm 22. In Psalm 17:8-12, the Psalmist pleads with God for deliverance from the "lion," as he cries out, Hide me under the shadow of Your wings, from the wicked who oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about. They are enclosed in their own fat; with their mouths they speak proudly. They have now compassed us in our steps; they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth, like a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.

Again, in Psalm 35:17, in a similar supplication, King David entreats the Almighty for salvation from "lions" as he exclaims, Lord, how long wilt thou look on? Rescue my soul from their destruction, my darling from the lions. Moreover, missionaries are confronted with another remarkable problem as they seek to project the words of this Psalm into a first century crucifixion story. In the simplest terms, this text that Christians eagerly quote is not a prophecy, nor does it speak of any future event. This entire Psalm, as well as the celebrated Psalm that follows it, contains a dramatic monologue in which King David cried out to God from the depths of his personal pain, anguish, and longing as he remained a fugitive from his enemies. Accordingly, the stirring monologue in this chapter is all in the first person. The author himself is crying out to God, and there is no doubt who the faithful speaker is in this Psalm; the very first verse in this chapter explicitly identifies this person as King David.

reply to post by FeraVerto


Actually you are denying you own scriptures found in the Torah because of emotionalism and centuries of
cultural influences. Take the time to read them yourself.

Prophecy Event Fulfillment
Ge 49:10 Born of the tribe Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14
of Judah
Ps 132:11; From the family of Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23;
Isa 9:7; David the son of Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12
11:1, Jesse
11:10
Mic 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42
Isa 7:14 Born of a virgin Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35
Jer 31:15 Babes killed after Mt 2:16-18
his birth
Ho 11:1 Called out of Mt 2:15
Egypt
Mal 3:1; Way prepared Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14;
4:5; before 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76;
Isa 40:3 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23;
3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4
Isa 61:1, 2 Commissioned Lu 4:18-21
Isa 9:1, 2 Ministry caused Mt 4:13-16
people in Naphtali
and Zebulun to see
great light
Ps 78:2 Spoke with Mt 13:11-13, 31-35
illustrations
Isa 53:4 Carried our Mt 8:16, 17
sicknesses
Ps 69:9 Zealous for Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17
God's house
Isa 42:1-4 As God’s Mt 12:14-21
servant, would not
wrangle in streets
Isa 53:1 Not believed in Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16
Zec 9:9; Entry into Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11;
Ps 118:26 Jerusalem on colt Lu 19:28-38;
of an ass; hailed Joh 12:12-15
as king and one
coming in God’s
name
Isa 28:16; Rejected but Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14;
53:3; becomes chief 4:11; 1Pe 2:7
Ps 69:8; cornerstone
118:22, 23
Isa 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33
stumbling
Ps 41:9; One apostle Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30;
109:8 unfaithful, betrays Ac 1:16-20
him
Zec 11:12 Betrayed for 30 Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11
pieces of silver
Zec 13:7 Disciples scatter Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32
Ps 2:1, 2 Roman powers and Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15;
leaders of Israel Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28
act together against
anointed of God
Isa 53:8 Tried and condemned Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26;
Joh 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40;
19:1-16
Ps 27:12 Use of false Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59
witnesses
Isa 53:7 Silent before Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61;
accusers 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9
Ps 69:4 Hated without cause Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25
Isa 50:6; Struck, spit on Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3
Mic 5:1
Ps 22:16, ftn
Impaled Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25;
Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23;
20:25, 27
Ps 22:18 Lots cast for Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24
garments
Isa 53:12 Numbered with Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38;
sinners Lu 22:37
Ps 22:7, 8 Reviled while on Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32
stake
Ps 69:21 Given vinegar and Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36
gall
Ps 22:1 Forsaken by God to Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34
enemies
Ps 34:20; No bones broken Joh 19:33, 36
Ex 12:46
Isa 53:5; Pierced Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37;
Zec 12:10 Re 1:7
Isa 53:5, Dies sacrificial Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29;
8, death to carry away Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3;
11, sins and open way Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24;
12 to righteous 1Jo 2:2
standing with God
Isa 53:9 Buried with the Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42
rich
Jon 1:17; In grave parts of Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23;
2:10 three days, then 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40;
resurrected 1Co 15:3-8
Ps 16:8-11, ftn
Raised before Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37
corruption
Ps 2:7 God declares Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11;
him His Son by Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33;
spirit begetting Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5
and by resurrection

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Trust me! I believe I know my faith enough to understand the differences. If you give it time to read the sources since they already have all the information detailing why Jesus cannot be prophesied by verses that have nothing to do with Jesus.
Did you read my post on the Suffering Servant is Israel? If you didn't I can understand why.
Let's go over the birth or virgin birth of Jesus. See how the scripture says other wise in my view.
Christians have longed viewed Isaiah 7:14 as talking about Jesus virgin birth being prophesied in the book of Isaiah.
Let's go over this; shall we? Source

For nearly two millennia the church has insisted that the Hebrew word alma can only mean “virgin.” The church must hold this position because Matthew 1:22-23 translates alma in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin.” The first Gospel quotes this well-known verse to provide the only “Old Testament” proof text for the supposed virgin birth of Jesus. The stakes are high for Christendom, because if the Hebrew word alma does not mean virgin, Matthew is misquoting the prophet Isaiah, and both a key tenet of Christianity and the credibility of the first Gospel collapses.

How accurate is this Christian claim? The place to explore this issue is in the Jewish scriptures. If the Hebrew word alma means virgin then each usage in the Bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at least be ambiguous. The word alma appears in the Jewish scriptures seven times. If even one reference clearly refers to a woman who is not a virgin, then Matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable.

One of the places where the uncommon Hebrew word alma appears in the Bible is in Proverbs 30:18-20 which reads, There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea. What do these three things all have in common? They leave no trace. After the eagle has flown across the sky, determining that the eagle had ever flown there is impossible. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship has moved across the sea, the water comes together behind it and there is no way to tell that a ship had ever passed through there. Similarly, King Solomon informs us that once a man has been with an alma there is also no trace of the fornication that had occurred between them. Therefore, in the following verse (verse 20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman has eaten (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual activity by exclaiming, “I have done no wrong.” The word alma clearly does not mean virgin.

In the same way that in the English language the words “young woman” have no bearing on whether virginity is present or not, in the Hebrew language there is no relationship between the words alma and virgin. On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin birth, he would have used the word betulah1 not alma. Betulah is a common word in the Jewish scriptures, and can only mean “virgin.”

1 In fact, although Isaiah used the Hebrew word alma only one time in his entire corpus (7:14), the prophet uses this word virgin (betulah) five times throughout the book of Isaiah (23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5).

As you can see I do not see Jesus in this verse or any other text. You have to understand we do not follow the same scripture.

You have to understand we do not follow the same scripture.

So ALL the Old Testament Prophesies are ALL irrelevant to you?
Or is the problem with interpretation of language of over 300 old testament scriptures pointing to the Messiah?
If it is, I would question the credibility of that line of reasoning, as I can easily post the Hebrew to English text exposing that as bogus and false.

For example here is the first scripture on that list I posted early.
Genesis 49:10

The rod of authority will not be taken from Judah, and he will not be without a law-giver, till he comes who has the right to it, and the peoples will put themselves under his rule.

biblos.com...

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


You can paint Jesus in any forum you want. I see the verses differently then you do. I do not see Jesus as being prophesied in the verses Christians use to support Jesus. Now, I can tell it is going to be fun talking about this. But I can already tell you we're at a stalemate. We can not change each other's faith and view on the text. Would you still be interested in going over different verses and seeing how we view the verses?

reply to post by FeraVerto

I see the verses differently then you do.

Ok, is it more when that who? Just asking?
Is your disagreement with the timeline then?