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Let's Get Biblical! Why doesn't Judaism accept the Christian Messiah?

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posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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It is difficult trying to discuss Judaism and Jewish tradition without Christians bringing Jesus in the picture. I'm not angry just annoyed. So, I decided to bring this all under one thread to discuss the Jewish Messiah concept (in detail) and why many Jews are not following Jesus or any other individual as the Messiah. Everyone has their views on this or that. I'm going to start with my input and go on from there. I would use my sources from books and the internet. One of the major points in understanding of the Jewish Messiah is what is the Jewish Messiah and how Jews from the past to today view the Jewish Messiah.
Understanding the Messiah concept in Judaism and how it differs from Christian and Islamic faiths:

1:1. Seed of David through Solomon
The Messiah will be a biological descendant of King David from the branch
that goes through Solomon, since Solomon is the one who built the Temple
(highlighting added for emphasis throughout this document unless otherwise
noted):
2Samuel 7:12-16 – (12) When your days will be completed and you will lie with your
forefathers, then I shall raise up your seed after you, that which will issue from your loins, and I shall establish his kingdom. (13)He shall build a Temple for My sake, and I shall make firm the throne of his kingdom forever. (14) I shall be to him
a Father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chastise
him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings. (15) But My mercy
shall not move away from him as I removed [it] from Saul, whom I removed from
before you. (16) And your dynasty and your kingdom shall be confirmed before
you forever; your throne will remain firm forever. [See also Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah
23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25.]
1Chronicles 22:9-10 – (9) Behold a son will be born to you; he will be a man of
peace, and I shall give him peace from all his enemies around about, for Solomon will be his name, and I shall give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. (10) He shall build a House in My Name, and he shall be to Me as a son, and I to him as a Father,
and I shall prepare the throne of his kingdom forever. [See also 1Kings 8:15-20;
1Chronicles 17:11-15, 28:3-7.]

2. Spiritual and Political/Military Leader of Israel
The Messiah will be steeped in Torah, an authority who will influence all of
Israel to follow Torah in an environment created by his spiritual leadership:
Isaiah 2:3 - And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to
the Lord's mount, to the House of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His
ways, and we will go in His paths;" for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 11:2 - And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and
understanding, a spirit of counsel and heroism, a spirit of knowledge and fear of
the Lord
The Messiah will defeat and conquer the enemies surrounding Israel. As an
ordinary mortal, a "flesh & blood" human being, he lives/will live in a world of 4
recognizable realities of military requirements and political alignments. He
will have to deal with these realities, and emerge victorious within the
constraints that they engender. Nevertheless, his political leadership will be
well recognized throughout the world, and his political influence will manifest
itself in a universal peace, as is suggested by Isaiah in this metaphorical
allusion:
Isaiah 11:6 - And a wolf shall live with a lamb, and a leopard shall lie with a kid; and
a calf and a lion cub and a fatling [shall lie] together, and a small child shall lead
them.
Daniel 7:14 -He has been given dominion, honor, and kingship, so that all peoples, nations, and tongues will serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion that will
never be removed, and his kingship will not be destroyed.

3. Married with Children
Although marriage and children are not stated pre-requisites for being the
Messiah, there is a clear indication that the Prince, who is the Messiah/King,
[see Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24]
4
will have children (via marriage) at some point
in time during his reign, and they will be entitled to inherit his property:
Ezekiel 46:16-17 – (16) Thus says the Lord God: "If the Prince gives a gift to any of his sons, it is his inheritance to remain in their possession; it is their property by inheritance. (17) But if he gives a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then
it shall be his [the servant's] until the year of liberty, and then it returns to the
Prince; only to his sons shall his inheritance belong.

4:The Coming of Elijah to Herald the Messiah’s Arrival
Elijah the prophet will precede the Messiah and "pave the way" for his arrival,
heralding the commencement of the messianic era:
Malachi 3:23[4:5] – Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of
the great and awesome day of the Lord

5: Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem
The Third Temple will be built by the Messiah; perhaps he may not literally do
the brick and mortar work, but it will be done when he begins his reign on the
throne of David. The presence of the Third Temple is envisioned in what is,
perhaps, one of the most detailed and vivid descriptions of the messianic era
to be found in the Hebrew Bible - Chapter 37 in the Book of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 37:26-28 – (26) And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting
covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them, and I will multiply them, and
I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. (27) And My dwelling place shall
be over them; and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
(28) And the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever. [See also Isaiah 33:20; Ezekiel Chapters 40-48.]
Later on, in Chapters 40-48, Ezekiel provides detailed descriptions of the
Third Temple and the ritual services to be held within its walls

6: In-Gathering of the Jewish Exiles to the Promised Land
The Messiah will repatriate the Jewish people from the Diaspora to the
promised land of Israel in preparation for the repair of the schism that
followed Solomon's reign:
Isaiah 11:12 - And he [Messiah] shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. [See also Isaiah 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Ezekiel 37:21-22;
Zechariah 10:6-10.]

7: Reunifying Judah and Israel into One People
The messianic agenda calls for the restoration of a unified kingdom for the
people of Israel:
Ezekiel 37:22 - And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be as
two nations, and they shall not be divided into two kingdoms anymore. [See also
the "lead-in" to the above verse - Ezekiel 37:16-21; Isaiah 11:13.]
The Messiah will accomplish this and reign over a reunified Kingdom of Israel:
Ezekiel 37:24 – And My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd; and they shall follow My ordinances, and observe My statutes,
and do them.

8: Establishing World Peace
The Messiah will be recognized as a fair judge and peacemaker, and in the
messianic era, disputes between countries will be settled through peaceful
means and not by war:
Isaiah 2:4 - And he [the Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and he shall
reprove many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, and they shall not learn war anymore. [See also Isaiah 11:6-8; Micah 4:3-4.]

9: Bringing about the Universal Knowledge of God
A universal knowledge of God will prevail, and this will put an end to
destruction and violence:
Isaiah 11:9 - They shall not harm and not destroy on all of My holy mountain; for the land shall be as filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea bed. [See also Jeremiah 31:33[34]; Zechariah 14:9.]

10: Realizing the Resurrection of the Dead
This is foretold in Ezekiel’s vision of the “dry bones”:
Ezekiel 37:12-13 – (12) Therefore, prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord
God: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. (13) Then you shall know that I
am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people. [See also Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2.]
Though, according to Daniel’s vision (12:2), most of the dead, but not all, will
come back to life. The righteous will live in bliss, and the wicked will live in
misery.
Source link

I will go into more detail how Jesus or any other figure failed to pass one of these requirements later. As you can see Jews and Christians do not see eye to eye on the Messiah concept. Christians mention we wanted a king. While Jews see Christians as wanting a godlike figure. More with the differences of the concept of G-d and Jesus later as well. Now this is the thread to discuss why Jews and Christians do not see eye to eye on the Messiah concept. Christians are welcome to ask questions and share their verses. Hopefully we can learn from one another without hitting a stalemate like the creation vs. evolution threads.




posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:24 PM
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WOW! You are blind my fellow virus. Why can't you see your GOD does not EXIST?



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:24 PM
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Why do you ask such? This never ends good.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by karileigh77
 


Because I'm bored and like to hear from Christians on my faith. See what they think overall on the Jewish Messiah concept. Others can see how Jews and Christians differ on the Messiah.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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do u ever read post on religon if so u know what im talking about. No offense to u.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by karileigh77
 


Yes, I do! I'm another gladiator going . to . with another one. I do agree we need to respect one another. But it's faith in the line. I like to rant and do it to much. I always feel I'm correct. But I'm solid on my views of my faith.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:37 PM
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Your going to get eat by others. But if thats your thing good luck. Its my thought that most dont beleive in god neither do i . But if you like arguing go for it.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by karileigh77
 


As long they eat Kosher food then I'm o.k.
I could never imagine how I taste. Maybe I should eat something sweet?



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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One question to begin. What was the revelation Israel received 2000 years ago from the prophets? Apart from the New Testament, you would need to say there was none. Is this like God to leave you 20 generations without a prophecy?

It was obvious that the Jews 2000 years ago were looking for a military leader. All that transpired in 70 AD would have been overcome by Christ had the fig tree been in season for figs. It was not. Why? 4 days had past since Adam, not 6. Christ would have overcome Rome if this was God's plan. Israel always seeks a king among men, and God provided one. God always has a plan and every 2000 years we see the results. It all depends on the nation and their heart. Just look at your evidence in the Old Testament. Each time, God worked it from another perspective. Ultimately, the entire narrative is a picture of his overall plan of salvation for mankind through Israel. Christ is the central piece of this puzzle.

Matthew 11:12
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it."

Romans 11

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Grace is unmerited favor. You can not do it yourself. God realizes this and send a Shepherd. Every 2000 years Israel has had one.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]


In 1948, the fig tree once again blossomed. The church bears fruit as Israel takes its place in new testament prophecy. Matthew 24 represents your proof of this. The mirror reflection is your verification from history, current events, and earth changes. Christ called it and now you know he was true to what he said. His fruit reveals itself as accurate revelation.

Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Israel will wake up. It is in the prophecies. God will not fail.

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

God is the root of all the nations. The plan has always been to save the world. Israel is the light unto the nations so that the nations may seek God from the reflection.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.


Watch your words. God has offered this to you 2000 years ago. Now is the time of the fulfillment and fullness of the Gentile nations. Some branches are grafted and some are thrown away to be burned. But, with God, nothing is lost. He is capable.


22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Faith, Hope and LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13. It's the entire point. I learned this from Israel.

All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]


Apart from this hardness, I likely would never have become a believer. God knew that Israel would need to be blind so that other nations would partake in the gift of faith, hope and love. Apart from this, I would likely be a pagan.


28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We can't have the keys to the kingdom until we are prepared.

Our inheritance is the universe (Heaven). Ephesians 1-3 contains the revealed mystery.

Deuteronomy 4:19 is the first hint.

"And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."

Our Exodus is off this planet after we shed the flesh and blood. Our guidebook to the stars is the Torah. We rule with Christ in the Kingdom of God. This has been God's plan from the beginning.

In Genesis, God gave us a choice for our education in good and evil. Walk with Him and never work, or Go it alone. We choose Satan as our prince and teacher. In return, God gave us toil for our knowledge. Nevertheless, God has always been there guiding us. All knowledge worth anything has come from Hebrew scientists. Ultimately, we received our education form God anyway.

Israel is his chosen mirror to reflect His image. God is the light. Christ is the Word. Together, they are both particle and wave. The duality of light. Wave creates form by the light of God. This is all of physics in Genesis 1 and John 1. You have your proof of Christ in this.






edit on 14-4-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-4-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


This is the huge (umbrella) factor with the differences between Judaism and Christian faiths. Judaism has tradition base while Christianity has evolved since the beginning of the faith. I do not hate Christians I just find it difficult explaining my views of my faith to them. I would like to explain the differences with this users last two paragraphs.


In Genesis, God gave us a choice for our education in good and evil. Walk with Him and never work, or Go it alone. We choose Satan as our prince and teacher. In return, God gave us toil for our knowledge. Nevertheless, God has always been there guiding us. All knowledge worth anything has come from Hebrew scientists. Ultimately, we received our education form God anyway. Israel is his chosen mirror to reflect His image. God is the light. Christ is the Word. Together, they are both particle and wave. The duality of light. Wave creates form by the light of God. This is all of physics in Genesis 1 and John 1. You have your proof of Christ in this.


In Judaism G-d gave us the ability of free will. Being able to chose Good or Evil. Satan in Jewish tradition is an Angel. Like all Angels they have no free will. Only doing work of G-d. Basically messengers. I would disagree Hebrew scientist are the ones with the knowledge of Jewish faith. G-d inspired the Jews and he still does today. We have an eternal covenant with G-d. I can understand this user believes in the Trinity. Which Jews do not believe in the Trinity. We view were made in G-d's image which is the ability to have free will. Do you agree with my reply?



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by ReaPErofSIN
 


Because I'm a mutant virus who loves to have faith!



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by FeraVerto
 


I once watched a great video series on this subject, basically it has to do with the New Testament authors adding in supposed "fulfilled" Messianic prophecies to the Jesus story. Such as the unnecessary flight to Egypt that appears in only one Gospel narrative while in the other Jesus is born and they . straight to Nazareth.










posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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There can only be one choice with free will. Faith or disbelief. Faith expresses itself in love for others. Disbelief expresses itself in pride. This is your only free will.

Let me explain. The future is possibility. We are affected by three things in life. Choice, chance and the actions of others. Chance is not probability, it is the providence of God's law. You reap what you sow. This is not punishment, it is law. All choices you can possibly make, according to what you perceive as free will, are merely reaping and sowing from the law. For every choice, the law has a consequence that has been written by God in advance. This means you only have one real choice. Faith or disbelief. The results of the law of the torah express themselves accordingly. You reveal yourself to God by choosing to eat the fruit of unrighteousness or walking with God for the supreme good.

Apart from faith, it becomes pride and selfishness. Duplicity is the result. If you seek reward, you are seeking reward and not the supreme good. If you seek to avoid punishment, you are again duplicitous. God does not punish, he merely provides the law that governs reaping and sowing. It's all according to our choice how the law reacts.

Here's the problem. The Hebrew believes that by manipulating the tree of life (10 Sefirot), he can be good enough to demonstrate faith to God. This is not possible, because man cannot separate himself from duplicity. Isaiah 64:6. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. Man either seeks reward or avoids the law (perceived punishment). Not by works, lest anyone should boast. God will not allow pride. There will be no boasting in Heaven apart form the praise we give Him.

This is where Christ comes in. Christ offers atonement. This is At-One-Ment with God. All degrees of difference are merely one thing. It's like temperature. Temperature is not hot and cold, it's both in one. Good and evil, sharp and flat, high and low, up and down. These are all degrees of difference.

How does a good musician get the performance right? Not too loud and not too soft. Not sharp and not flat. Not too fast and not too slow. It's about balance. Being at one with the requirements of the symphony.

In this case, God is the conductor who has written a beautiful symphony. The symphony does not change. God scored it from beginning to end. Nevertheless, the musician is the performer. God is the piano tuner as well. The quality of the performance can only happen if the instrument is in tune.

In this life, you are not a fish swimming, you are swum. You are not a bird flying, you are flown. Your only choice is faith or disbelief. Duplicity is always there. Christ atoned for this flaw.







Originally posted by FeraVerto
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


This is the huge (umbrella) factor with the differences between Judaism and Christian faiths. Judaism has tradition base while Christianity has evolved since the beginning of the faith. I do not hate Christians I just find it difficult explaining my views of my faith to them. I would like to explain the differences with this users last two paragraphs.


In Genesis, God gave us a choice for our education in good and evil. Walk with Him and never work, or Go it alone. We choose Satan as our prince and teacher. In return, God gave us toil for our knowledge. Nevertheless, God has always been there guiding us. All knowledge worth anything has come from Hebrew scientists. Ultimately, we received our education form God anyway. Israel is his chosen mirror to reflect His image. God is the light. Christ is the Word. Together, they are both particle and wave. The duality of light. Wave creates form by the light of God. This is all of physics in Genesis 1 and John 1. You have your proof of Christ in this.


In Judaism G-d gave us the ability of free will. Being able to chose Good or Evil. Satan in Jewish tradition is an Angel. Like all Angels they have no free will. Only doing work of G-d. Basically messengers. I would disagree Hebrew scientist are the ones with the knowledge of Jewish faith. G-d inspired the Jews and he still does today. We have an eternal covenant with G-d. I can understand this user believes in the Trinity. Which Jews do not believe in the Trinity. We view were made in G-d's image which is the ability to have free will. Do you agree with my reply?

edit on 14-4-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-4-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:19 PM
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The flaming sword that protects the tree of life (salvation) is bias. Your bias will blind you.


Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by FeraVerto
 


I once watched a great video series on this subject, basically it has to do with the New Testament authors adding in supposed "fulfilled" Messianic prophecies to the Jesus story. Such as the unnecessary flight to Egypt that appears in only one Gospel narrative while in the other Jesus is born and they . straight to Nazareth.










posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


I will continue to have to disagree with your views. G-d gave mankind; every-person the ability of free will. Doesn't mean everyone has to be Jewish or follow the Seven Laws of Noah. I will also have to disagree with Jesus being offered for atonement. This is where Christians always see people as not being close enough to G-d because they do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. This is like Muslims telling everyone they are lost for not accepting Muhammad as a prophet. I will go into detail why the death of Jesus cannot be a way to atone for sin or be used as a stepping stool to get to g-d.

There are a number of requirements for a sacrifice to be valid or it is completely disqualified and will be an abomination to G-d. These requirements are as follows:
1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest.
2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death.
3. The offering must be physically unblemished.
4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old.
5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud.
6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple
7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar.
8. The sacrifice must be salted.

MT source

Missionaries contend that the blood sacrificial system is man's only conduit to atonement and insist that there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. They maintain that the Bible sets forth only blood atonement to expiate sin. Evangelical Christians assert that for the past nineteen centuries, since the destruction of the second Temple in 70 C.E., Jews have lacked the essential and indispensable animal sacrificial system for atonement. Consequently, they maintain, God must have provided a blood atonement in place of the animal sacrifices of the past. This sacrifice, they insist, is the death of Jesus on the cross. In support of their claim that atonement can only be achieved through the shedding of blood, missionaries cite Leviticus 17:11, which reads, This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. They conclude from this verse that only by being covered in the blood of the cross can man have any hope of being forgiven by God for his sins. In response to this argument, I have explained that contrary to the missionary claim that blood sacrifice is the only method of atonement in the Bible, there are three methods of atonement clearly defined in the Jewish scriptures: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice (known in the Jewish scriptures as korban chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man's most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was barred from the sanctuary, and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellious intent to sin against God. The Torah teaches this fundamental principle in Numbers 15:27-31. If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . . The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him. Your question is excellent: "If the sin sacrifice was necessary in order to atone for unintentional sin, didn't Jesus then have to die for those sins committed unwittingly?"

More through the link provided.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:37 PM
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1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest.

.....Christ sacrifice was in place of this offering. Salvation has come to men. Works are not sufficient. The law is there to demonstrate this.

2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death.

.....Christ is the WORD. The Word is the two edged sword.

3. The offering must be physically unblemished.

.....He is the perfect lamb of God. He lived as the fulfillment of the word. The Bible is God's word as a reflection of God and man. Christ was the Word (Logos) as a reflection of the perfect word in the form of man.

4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old.

.....1000 years is as a day to God.

5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud.

Aleph is the Ox. Christ is God as man, come to offer atonement for sin.

6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple

.....Your heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit of God. The veil has been torn.

7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar.

.....Amos 9:11-12 "On that day [at the return of Messiah Yahshua] I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old; that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name," says YHWH who does this thing."

8. The sacrifice must be salted.

....Salt is the symbol of purity, in Jesus day it was precious, and most of all, it is for preservation.





Originally posted by FeraVerto
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


I will continue to have to disagree with your views. G-d gave mankind; every-person the ability of free will. Doesn't mean everyone has to be Jewish or follow the Seven Laws of Noah. I will also have to disagree with Jesus being offered for atonement. This is where Christians always see people as not being close enough to G-d because they do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. This is like Muslims telling everyone they are lost for not accepting Muhammad as a prophet. I will go into detail why the death of Jesus cannot be a way to atone for sin or be used as a stepping stool to get to g-d.

There are a number of requirements for a sacrifice to be valid or it is completely disqualified and will be an abomination to G-d. These requirements are as follows:
1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest.

2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death.
3. The offering must be physically unblemished.
4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old.
5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud.
6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple
7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar.
8. The sacrifice must be salted.

MT source

Missionaries contend that the blood sacrificial system is man's only conduit to atonement and insist that there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. They maintain that the Bible sets forth only blood atonement to expiate sin. Evangelical Christians assert that for the past nineteen centuries, since the destruction of the second Temple in 70 C.E., Jews have lacked the essential and indispensable animal sacrificial system for atonement. Consequently, they maintain, God must have provided a blood atonement in place of the animal sacrifices of the past. This sacrifice, they insist, is the death of Jesus on the cross. In support of their claim that atonement can only be achieved through the shedding of blood, missionaries cite Leviticus 17:11, which reads, This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. They conclude from this verse that only by being covered in the blood of the cross can man have any hope of being forgiven by God for his sins. In response to this argument, I have explained that contrary to the missionary claim that blood sacrifice is the only method of atonement in the Bible, there are three methods of atonement clearly defined in the Jewish scriptures: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice (known in the Jewish scriptures as korban chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man's most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was barred from the sanctuary, and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellious intent to sin against God. The Torah teaches this fundamental principle in Numbers 15:27-31. If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . . The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him. Your question is excellent: "If the sin sacrifice was necessary in order to atone for unintentional sin, didn't Jesus then have to die for those sins committed unwittingly?"

More through the link provided.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


These are your views and I respect that; I just do not agree with your views. Having Jesus as this perfect godlike being goes against traditional Judaism.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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Hebrew morphology is a fascinating subject. It's sad the books are so expensive. Good thing I like books. I posted this earlier in another thread.

The root Maiden creates:

Mystery, secret, eternity, horizon.

If you know anything about Hebrew weddings, these words paint a picture of a bride (Maiden) waiting for the return of her betrothed. It was a secret when he would return for his bride (usually after a year). The bride would search the horizon each day. The horizon represents eternity and our dimly lit view of the eternity on the horizon of time can only see so much through our mind's eye. Ultimately, this represents a picture of the return of Christ for his bride. It's amazing that a Jewish person can miss this fact in their own language, let alone the trinity in the triune nature of God in Kaballah. Nearly all the branches of the Hebrew roots point back to the story of salvation and the arrival of the messiah. There are many parables in the Midrash that draw my attention to the Christian salvation story with clarity. God is Amazing!!

Ephesians 5:15-32
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the . of the wife, even as Christ is the . of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:46 PM
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Doesn't Isaiah say you will be blinded until the cities are laid waste? And exactly how long has it been since Judaism has had a major or even a minor prophet raised up?

You know he spoke to people in the past and had a working relationship with them. They wrote the stories and talked from experience because they knew him. They would probably stick their nose up at you for copying and paisting in order to relate something.

I guess what I'm asking you is - did they have a better relationship with God than yourself?

I'm really curious.
edit on 14-4-2011 by Myrtales Instinct because: Jesus (no pun intended) it's late and I'm full of typos.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Again, I would have to disagree with the Trinity or view of multiple God's in Judaism and teachings. Let's go over some verses and words to see if they explain the Trinity. I'm using sources from Outreach Judaism which already have the answers for the questions.

Did Somebody Find the Trinity in the Name of God? Question

Dear Rabbi Singer, Yesterday, a Christian business associate made a point that in the very first verse of Genesis G-d is referred to as "Elohim" which is plural. She also said that it is a plural form of three (something I have never heard before). That, she concludes, is proof of the Trinity! Why is G-d's name plural in this verse?


Answer---Read the source to finish the question and Answer.

The question with which you were confronted by your business associate is one of the more well-known arguments used by missionaries to defend their most untenable creed, the doctrine of the Trinity. It is difficult to imagine a notion more hostile to the pure monotheism preached in the Jewish scriptures than the Christian teaching that there is a plurality within the divine nature of God. Yet, with limited knowledge of the Jewish Bible and the language in which it was written, many Trinitarians brazenly refer to the name of God as it appears in the first verse in the Bible to advance their contention that there are three persons sharing in the god.. More specifically, missionaries point to the plural form of the Hebrew word Elohim,1 which is one of the names of God frequently used in the Torah. They insist that in scripture the use of the Hebrew letters yod and mem (pronounced "im"), at the end of the word Elohim as a plural suffix, provides ample evidence from Tanach that there is a plurality within the nature of God. Your business associate went out on an even more fragile limb when she proclaimed that this plural syntax is somehow indicative of the "plural form of three." I will begin by saying that you can rest assured that the Hebrew tongue is a foreign language to your business associate, and both of her contentions are erroneous. While her first assertion can be easily explained away by her lack of familiarity with the biblical language, her second point cannot. Her latter comment that the plural suffix in Elohim is indicative of "a plural form of three" is particularly preposterous, and underscores how frustrated Trinitarians can become in their rash effort to somehow shore up this alien church doctrine. While I too have never heard any missionary make the astounding claim that plurals somehow mean "a plural form of three," I could sense from where this irresponsible contrivance is coming. If you examine the few verses evangelicals use from the Jewish scriptures as they seek to buttress the doctrine of the Trinity, you will notice that none of them, even in Christian terms, speaks of three persons. In essence, her flawed declaration was born out of a desperate desire to weave the Trinity out of whole Jewish cloth. This is an impossible task.

Source 1

Did Somebody Find the Trinity in the First Chapter of the Bible? To Whom Was God Speaking to When He Said, "Let Us Make Man in Our Image"?

Dear Rabbi Singer, A Messianic Jew is working overtime to try to convince me that I need JC. She recently showed me Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image,” stating that JC was part of creation with G-d, plural Us and Our being the proof. Can you explain the plural in this verse to me? I want to have an intelligent answer. I am trying very hard to learn more of my Jewish religion, as I was raised in a non-religious home. The only Bible I own is the one she gave me and it is a King James.


Continue reading at the source

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune god. than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the god.. Because the prophets relayed their divine message on the nature of God with such timeless clarity, few texts in Tanach could hold any promise for the church to raise up as a support for their teachings on the Trinity. Understandably, though, the defenders of Christendom flaunted the very few verses that they managed to somehow skew into a supposed support for this alien doctrine. One of the most popular verses used by missionaries as a proof text for the Trinity is Genesis 1:26. This verse appears in missionary literature quite often in spite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries. Let’s examine Genesis 1:26. And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and they shall rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Source 2

I am about to begin a conversion process. My boyfriend is Jewish and I wish to convert before we marry. I have believed for many years that this is the way for me and will be the way in which I bring up my children. I have a born-again Christian friend coming to visit me next weekend. She has been very involved in Messianic Judaism (even though she is a gentile) and I know she is going to have a big talk with me. I want to be able to answer her intelligently. I know exactly the one she is going to throw at me and I would like some help with the answer. She is going to talk about the time in the bible (can't remember where it is) when they bought back a sample of the fruits of the promised land. Apparently it says that they bought "echad" grapes. The word "echad," although it refers to ONE, is talking about a BUNCH of grapes. Therefore, when we talk about "Adonai Echad," we can be talking about three gods in one. None of this rings true for me, but I want to be well thought out on all of this. Would you please help ASAP. (She is arriving next weekend!)


Continue reading through source. Source 3

I am very pleased that you have asked this question because I am certain that some of our Jewish readers will be quite taken aback by your dilemma. How can I be so sure that they will be stunned by simply reading your question? Try to imagine the astonished reaction of a Jew (who has his monotheism intact) as he discovers from your question that missionaries use his cherished national creed, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one" (Hebrew: echad), to prove the doctrine of the Trinity. To the surprise of many, Trinitarians will often use this celebrated verse to support their belief in a triune nature of God. Let's examine this missionary argument more closely. To support their claim that there are multiple persons within the god., missionaries insist that the Hebrew word echad (one) at the end of Deuteronomy 6:4 does not mean an absolute one, but rather it can only signify a compound unity, or many things in one. They will often cite two verses to support this assertion. The first is the one you have mentioned, Numbers 13:23 reads, Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one (echad) cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole. They also brought some of the pomegranates and figs.

JFJ Trinity?
Trinity in the Torah?
Is Jesus really G-d?

My sources and links explain in detail my views on G-d and why I do not believe in the Trinity and how I view the nature of G-d.




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