This is how John McCarthy Roll died (Tuscon Shooting)

He suffered internal bleeding, he was left at the scene, hence he was left at the scene with internal bleeding. No where in the report does it say he died immediately as no time of death was given. If a hospital paramedic declared then it should be on record somewhere.

A Paramedic cannot declare a time of death. More than likely they observed the obvous signs of death--lack of spontaneous respirations, no pulse, no BP, etc.--and moved on to the next victim. Only a doctor or Coroner can declare a time of death.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1


Looks like his liver or spleen was punctured and once that happens it's lights out as you are dead within seconds. Those that survived were able to be transported to the hospital.

Liver has intact, smooth capsule.

Spleen has intact, smooth capsule.

Once again, you are speculating as to what happened.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

He suffered internal bleeding, he was left at the scene, hence he was left at the scene with internal bleeding. No where in the report does it say he died immediately as no time of death was given. If a hospital paramedic declared then it should be on record somewhere.

A Paramedic cannot declare a time of death. More than likely they observed the obvous signs of death--lack of spontaneous respirations, no pulse, no BP, etc.--and moved on to the next victim. Only a doctor or Coroner can declare a time of death.

all the more reason why this should be investigated. Who declared Roll and the other victims dead? The FBI was there, did they do it? No one has offered any evidence as to who declared Roll dead.

Originally posted by filosophia

Once again, you are speculating as to what happened.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are saying they left him to die for eight hours....where exactly does it say that? You are also saying he was shot, then hit in the head...where does it say that? You are just making wild claims...and are also disrespecting a dead man by including him in your fantasy(conspiracy) .

Originally posted by kerazeesicko

Originally posted by filosophia

Once again, you are speculating as to what happened.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are saying they left him to die for eight hours....where exactly does it say that? You are also saying he was shot, then hit in the head...where does it say that? You are just making wild claims...and are also disrespecting a dead man by including him in your fantasy(conspiracy) .

Autopsy report, if you read my first post you would have noticed that, I also put pictures up. So no, I am not speculating, I'm reading the facts. Other posters are speculating that his spleen or liver was punctured but I proved that wrong as well.

Originally posted by kerazeesicko

You are saying they left him to die for eight hours....where exactly does it say that?

The shooting happened at 10:10 AM and the pathologist did not arrive at the scene until 5:45 PM where the victim was still there full rigor mortis. This means he was NOT taken to the hospital for about 8 hours. (about 7 1/2 hours to be precise).

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by kerazeesicko

Originally posted by filosophia

Once again, you are speculating as to what happened.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are saying they left him to die for eight hours....where exactly does it say that? You are also saying he was shot, then hit in the head...where does it say that? You are just making wild claims...and are also disrespecting a dead man by including him in your fantasy(conspiracy) .

Autopsy report, if you read my first post you would have noticed that, I also put pictures up. So no, I am not speculating, I'm reading the facts. Other posters are speculating that his spleen or liver was punctured but I proved that wrong as well.

edit on 14-4-2011 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

Yes, you did prove that his liver and spleen were intact. But you also posted a screen shot that says his aorta may have been hit, with resultant hemoperitoneum. This does not mean he laid there bleeding to death. It simply means that as a result of the aorta being ruptured the blood collected in the peritoneal area. That's where it would naturally pool, as there would have been a hole for the blood to pass through and collect between the two layers.

As far as a conspiracy concerning who pronounced this man dead, I don't think there is one. As a Paramedic I could not legally "pronounce" someone dead, but I could recognize the obvious signs of death, in which case I am not going to rush them to the hospital. The Paramedics may very well have attempted to revive this man, unsuccessfully. They would have then moved on to the next victim.

As you can see, it states that approximately 1.5-2 liters of blood in the abdominal cavity--that's internal bleeding.

This chart shows how much blood loss is significant:



www.spiritwoodambulance.ca...

Since 1 liter of blood loss is significant, 1.5-2 liters will kill someone, which means if he didn't die immediately, he died of internal bleeding.

So, while it is possible he was killed immediately, who decided that? As someone already said, paramedics usually do not pronounce time of death. He wasn't taken to the hospital, so who else was there? The Pima County Sherriff's office and the FBI, but of course I'm sure people will just say "if he was alive the FBI would have treated him." Sure, but show me proof. I showed you proof, the least you can do is offer the same to me, rather than accusing me of speculating when I'm showing the information to you.

The shooting happened at 10:10 AM and the pathologist did not arrive at the scene until 5:45 PM where the victim was still there full rigor mortis. This means he was NOT taken to the hospital for about 8 hours. (about 7 1/2 hours to be precise).

Again, they would not move the body until the investigation was complete. In no way does this mean that someone left this man there to die.

reply to post by filosophia


Gunshot was the fatal injury and that is what Loughner is being charged with.

The severing of any aorta will kill in seconds.

A Forensic Investigator working for The FBI more then has the authourity and license to declare someone dead and since the FBI took the lead on the case near instantly superceedes all Local, County and State police/investigatory units.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
This does not mean he laid there bleeding to death. It simply means that as a result of the aorta being ruptured the blood collected in the peritoneal area. That's where it would naturally pool,

It is not natural for 2 liters to pool in the abdomen, that results in death. I don't see how you can say the aorta was ruptured and blood collected in the abdomen yet he didn't bleed to death. Show me evidence that a doctor determined him dead at the scene. I've given you nothing but documented evidence, the least you can do is the same for me and not speculation that he died immediately.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by filosophia

 

Gunshot was the fatal injury and that is what Loughner is being charged with.

The severing of any aorta will kill in seconds.

A Forensic Investigator working for The FBI more then has the authourity and license to declare someone dead and since the FBI took the lead on the case near instantly superceedes all Local, County and State police/investigatory units.

edit on 14-4-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

Care to tell me then who on the FBI declared him dead? You can't, you're just assuming they did.

Originally posted by filosophia

As you can see, it states that approximately 1.5-2 liters of blood in the abdominal cavity--that's internal bleeding.

This chart shows how much blood loss is significant:

www.spiritwoodambulance.ca...

Since 1 liter of blood loss is significant, 1.5-2 liters will kill someone, which means if he didn't die immediately, he died of internal bleeding.

So, while it is possible he was killed immediately, who decided that? As someone already said, paramedics usually do not pronounce time of death. He wasn't taken to the hospital, so who else was there? The Pima County Sherriff's office and the FBI, but of course I'm sure people will just say "if he was alive the FBI would have treated him." Sure, but show me proof. I showed you proof, the least you can do is offer the same to me, rather than accusing me of speculating when I'm showing the information to you.

Right there in the second paragraph from the bottom you can see, right where you conveniently cut the picture off, that it states the entire posterior aspect of the descending aorta was pierced. This man was dead within seconds. Even if Paramedics had attempted to save him their efforts would have been all for nothing. This hemoperitineum that you refer to would cause death if left untreated, if it were a SLOW bleed. You rupture or pierce the aorta and it's lights out within seconds.

The aorta is the main artery that supplies blood to the entire body. Naturally, even after death the blood is going to collect in the space between the abdominal linings because there is already a hole there from the bullet wound. There is no conspiracy here. The man was shot and died.

reply to post by IamAbeliever


reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


This is to both of you: I've given documented evidence to back up all of my claims, many of which proved your speculations to be wrong, so I will no longer respond to what you say until you give me documented evidence that an FBI agent or a doctor pronounced him dead shortly after the shooting and thus no need for medical intervention.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by filosophia

 

Gunshot was the fatal injury and that is what Loughner is being charged with.

The severing of any aorta will kill in seconds.

A Forensic Investigator working for The FBI more then has the authourity and license to declare someone dead and since the FBI took the lead on the case near instantly superceedes all Local, County and State police/investigatory units.

edit on 14-4-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

Care to tell me then who on the FBI declared him dead? You can't, you're just assuming they did.

I am not assuming a thing and quit with this, this was declared a Federal matter by 12p the day it occured allowing and clearing The FBI to take over the case.

The local chapter of The Federal Bureau Of Investigation's Laboratory Services took charge of the forensic aspect.
www.fbi.gov...

A forensic pathologist working for The FBI (yes, they've got like 1,000+ on staff at any given point in time) declared him dead.

The incident popped off at what, 1030a local local arrived on scene by 1045a and The FBI arrived on scene around 1230p after Obama ordered The FBI to take lead, and guess what happens after that? The FBI is now in charge and command of the operation.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
that it states the entire posterior aspect of the descending aorta was pierced. This man was dead within seconds.

Thank you for at least quoting the report and not just speculation, and you may be right, but just so I know for sure, can you give me some documentation from an outside source that this would result in death in seconds? If it is so easily known (and it may be, I'm not in the medical profession) then surely you can back it up for me.

Edit: You are basically saying that the aorta was punctured, thus, automatic death. Okay, plausible, but it's also plausible to have automatic death from a gunshot point blank to the face, like in the case of Gabrielle Giffords, but she didn't die immediately. So I need more than just speculation and some actual proof. Who is the FBI pathologist that declared him dead?

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1

www.fbi.gov...

Okay this proves the FBI has a lab but nowhere does it mention the Tucson shooting. This is just a front page of an FBI site, there is no pertinent information whatsoever to the Tucson shooting.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1


A forensic pathologist working for The FBI (yes, they've got like 1,000+ on staff at any given point in time) declared him dead.

Where are you getting this information from? It's not on your link. What was the pathologist's name?

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by IamAbeliever

 

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

 

This is to both of you: I've given documented evidence to back up all of my claims, many of which proved your speculations to be wrong, so I will no longer respond to what you say until you give me documented evidence that an FBI agent or a doctor pronounced him dead shortly after the shooting and thus no need for medical intervention.

Well I truly believe that you are looking for a conspiravy where none exists, at least as it pertains to this man's death. And further, unless you are the poster on GLP then your entire thread was stolen from this site.
www.godlikeproductions.com...

Originally posted by IamAbeliever

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by IamAbeliever

 

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

 

This is to both of you: I've given documented evidence to back up all of my claims, many of which proved your speculations to be wrong, so I will no longer respond to what you say until you give me documented evidence that an FBI agent or a doctor pronounced him dead shortly after the shooting and thus no need for medical intervention.

Well I truly believe that you are looking for a conspiravy where none exists, at least as it pertains to this man's death. And further, unless you are the poster on GLP then your entire thread was stolen from this site.
www.godlikeproductions.com...

I did not once mention conspiracy! I'm stating the facts as it is shown on the autopsy report, I am merely stressing that this man was not taken to the hospital yet had internal bleeding. I am even willing to believe you that an FBI pathologist declared him dead, I'm just asking for proof. I was starting to get hopeful with you two again but now that you are resorting to the conspiracy card I guess I have no more to gain from you.

oh and that post was mine. I am the original author Funny how you don't like the content of the thread but are willing to defend the original author just so you can call plagiarism against me. I'd like to thank you, while I did not get the information I needed, this has been a rather amusing time. And thank you for defending my work against possible plaigarists, I thank you for that.