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The big scientific problem with the idea of Creationism

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posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by meeneecat
 


your very first response (avoiding quoting it just to save space in the thread) where you linked me to this (here), is just factually inaccurate. You constantly reminded me and the poster before about our misunderstandings of evolution, and then there is this statement from the link:



A true faith implies acceptance and trust; it is the feeling that whatever happens, things will somehow be okay. Such faith is not compatible with most creationism. Creationism usually demands that God acts according to peoples' set beliefs, and anything else is simply wrong (e.g., ICR 2000). It cannot accept that whatever God has done is okay.


This is a patently absurd understanding of creation teachings, and smacks of the continued condescending attitude so common among those who support evolutionism - certainly not everyone but easily the majority. The idea is sort of like "we know ALL about your religion AND our evolution, because we are smarter than you."

So, maybe YOU should try avoiding a pro-origins website as your only source of knowledge for understanding not only creation teachings, but what christian faith is.

edit on 14/4/11 by TrailGator because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion

Originally posted by freedish
I believe the the bible is the word of God when understood correctly. And when things are understood through the holy spirit that is given to all who accept Jesus as savior.


Seems you are quite fortunate to have been born in a western society where you had access to the teachings of Jesus, eh? Imagine how much it would have sucked if you had been born into a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist family or an Aboriginal tribe?

Have you fully thought through this as it relates to others?

I wish to suggest some readings from the Nag Hammadi... especially the Gospel of Thomas. Just as a starting point. And comparing them to teachings from other cultures around the world. Jesus as written about in those texts doesn't want your undying devotion... he wants you to discover and be your own true self. He was trying to tell you how to look within yourself by leading by example. Later revisions by people with political motivations made it look like you had to look to an external authority to reach understanding.

Namaste
edit on 13-4-2011 by ErgoTheConfusion because: Added the Nag Hammadi section and changed it to be more polite.



Fortunate to be born in western society? Well first of all Christianity started in Israel. Second, Christianity is spread all throughout the world.

And you are wrong. Jesus does not want us to find our own true selves. Because our own true selves are evil sinful creatures. By believing Jesus died for us we receive a new spirit, His spirit. And the old sinful creature is dead. I'm sorry but anything else that is taught other than that is wrong.


Now if you want to talk salvation, yes if you are born in a society that hasn't heard of Jesus you can still be saved. God is a fair judge, and since He created that person He does not want them to perish. But damn, it is a pleasure to know Jesus. And I feel bad for people who go their whole lives without knowing Him.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by arcanewings
 


...evolutionist is a stupid word, scientific 'belief' is based on testing and retesting rather than faith, and science is actually something very important. This isn't some out there philosophical problem with no impact on lives. The creationist movement is trying to steadily defeat the progress of science in many countries, the sort of science that saves lives by curing diseases and feeding people. Evolution has direct and useful implications.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by mbaca3570
 


Um...and none of this actually has to do with anything in the OP and many people (including myself) have refuted those arguments so many times...whatever, I'll do it again.


Originally posted by mbaca3570
What I am wondering though if "evolution and the big bang" is the explanation for all life then how did the point of singularity get there?


...the big bang explains how the universe formed in its infancy and evolution describes how life diversified...there are quite a few steps in between. As for where the 'stuff' that preceded the big bang came from, nobody is sure...yet. We might not know for a while, but that doesn't make the scientific position any weaker.



also look around you the shirt you are wearing was made by an intelligent designer your house was made by an intelligent designer everything around was made by something else but yet the fabric of life was by accident?


The rocks on my desk wasn't made by someone. The bamboo stick that I use to hold hats? The only intelligent interference was in me picking it up and cleaning it off of a beach one day. And it's a false comparison. All of the things that I know were made in my room are things that I have knowledge of being man-made. I don't have any knowledge that would lend me to believe that the things in nature are made.



Evolution also doesn't allow room for morals because it is survival of the fittest this will sound bad but stealing should be okay and murder and rape should all be acceptable you need to do what you need to do to produce offspring and pass on your DNA. (I DO NOT THINK ANY OF THAT WAS OKAY IT WAS TO MAKE A POINT)


Theories of biology aren't supposed to have any grounding in morals. And it does allow for morals....you have a better chance of surviving through cooperation. Not being a jerk to everyone allows of social interactions that benefit you.



and also have we ever seen any genetic jumps the answer is no.


What is a 'genetic jump'?



Micro-evolution is correct however which is small changes in the gene population like the peppered moths for instance but no animal has ever gone from one species to the next it is impossible.


Then it seems that the impossible has been seen repeatedly. That is a link to the thread 'observed instances of speciation'.



and one final thought according to the cell theory it states LIFE CAN NOT ARISE FROM NON LIFE.


...that has nothing to do with cell theory. Cell theory states that organisms consist of microscopic cells.



and all scientist believe in the cell theory


Which is that organisms are made of cells. And there are more scientists that are named 'Steve' (or some variation thereof) that accept evolution than there are total scientists that reject it.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by freedish
Fortunate to be born in western society? Well first of all Christianity started in Israel. Second, Christianity is spread all throughout the world.

Now if you want to talk salvation, yes if you are born in a society that hasn't heard of Jesus you can still be saved. God is a fair judge, and since He created that person He does not want them to perish. But damn, it is a pleasure to know Jesus. And I feel bad for people who go their whole lives without knowing Him.


It has spread through the world *now*... but I guess you covered that in your second part.


I know him. I also know Buddha. I also know myself. I also know Lao Tzu. I also know Nietzsche. I also know Lucifer. I also know The Law of One. I also know Kant. I also know Aristotle. I also know Socrates. I also know Moses. I also know Zhuangzi. I also know Shiva. I also know Einstein. I also know Ghandi. I also know Ra. I also know Zeus. I also know Shakespeare. I also know Mary. I also know...

And damn it is a pleasure to know them all and see how they are all working together to raise our consciousness and awareness of the world around us and ourselves.


Originally posted by freedish
And you are wrong. Jesus does not want us to find our own true selves. Because our own true selves are evil sinful creatures. By believing Jesus died for us we receive a new spirit, His spirit. And the old sinful creature is dead. I'm sorry but anything else that is taught other than that is wrong.


So I guess the answer is no... you will not be reading the items I suggested? Your choice!

Peace be with you.

Namaste.
edit on 14-4-2011 by ErgoTheConfusion because: Spelling errors.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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It's clear by the posts the OP has chosen to respond to as well as one of his most recent threads that he isn't actually interested in trying to genuinely learn... but instead wants to prop up the *easiest target possible* and punch it over and over.

C'mon, you're like an adult trying to feel good for making fun of kids playing cowboys and indians. Get over them. Battle them in the political arena, but you're picking the absolute easiest version of the target you can and feeling awesome about yourself.

I've tried to offer you bits of perspectives that demonstrate consciousness being the creator along with scientific inquiry into it with a theory proposed by the guy who is one of the key people responsible for our being able to grow eye tissue from stem-cells and backed up by physicists neck deep in Quantum Mechanics research... coming to the same conclusion that your mind is the creator.

Namaste.
edit on 14-4-2011 by ErgoTheConfusion because: Changed the link to go directly to Richard Conn Henry's site.



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Friend I see you on the religious forums often. You are extraordinarily intelligent and analytical. I admire your tenacity for seeking answers. So far, it seems nobody has been able to give you adequate answers to disprove your observations and ideas. I strongly urge you to read a book called "Secrets of a Supernatural World" written by Buck Stevens. Maybe it will give you the answers you're looking for. It is written in a scientific way to explain Genesis and creation.

here's a link- please, I strongly urge you to read this book

Secrest of a Supernatural World



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 


I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Are you saying God is inside all of us? If so then how can that be when man is so wretched?



posted on Apr, 14 2011 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 


I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Are you saying God is inside all of us? If so then how can that be when man is so wretched?



Whew that's a tall order! It's a challenging idea to express if you have it in your heart that you and the rest of us are innately wretched, heh. I will continue in private messages to not detract this thread too much, and also because I feel like we can have a positive and uplifting conversation together sharing each other's views in a way that would likely get easily derailed in here.

Namaste



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 06:26 AM
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reply to post by freedish
 


I think man is so wretched because he has forgotten that god is inside himself. Man believes that what he is looking for can be found out there, out side of himself.
The truth is not out there in the many things, this is where we get fragmented. Everything that you can possibly think of, anything you can name, is not what is going to fulfill us.
The un-namable is within. Some call it god.
When we look for completeness from without (others) it will never be found, all that results is stealing and guilt.
We are already complete and if we knew this we could only ever give and receive.
edit on 15-4-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by Aggie Man
If a creator created the universe, then who created the creator? If the creator spontaneously came to be, then why is it not possible that the universe spontaneously came to be? If both options are equally as probable, then I will go with the universe spontaneously coming to be, as there is absolute evidence of the universe, but zero evidence of a creator.

my 2-cents


I beg to differ.

The creator "God if you like" is infinite. Within math and science infinite is depicted in many ways with symbols and graphs. But never as a human.

The creator is not a human. The creator is a infinite dimension.

A infinite dimension is a constant that always is and always was. A constant can never change unless it wants to. So, our existence is a choice, not a random cause.

Because a constant (infinite) can't change randomly.

Existence must exist within the infinite there is no other place it can be. So existence can't be random or spontaneous.

The expansion of our finite universe and existence is proof of that.






edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


Alright, let me try and explain this again (like so many others have tried in this thread) because it obviously isn't going in.

The word 'theory' in the common use of the word is just an idea. For example "I have a theory about why Chelsea lost on Tuesday". In science the word 'theory' means an entirely different thing. A scientific theory has been rigorously tested and peer reviewed and is accepted as fact.

Evolution is a fact until someone comes along with evidence to the contrary. This has not happened yet.



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by Griffo
 


The word theory means a story about something that can't be called a fact. A scientific theory is not fact until proved wrong, it is a work in progress until a more convincing story comes along.
No one knows, that's why people are still looking. There is no authority on the truth.
edit on 15-4-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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Science will never be able to disprove creation. Because science can never reach beyond the expansion of finite matter and energies. Science deals in facts it can observe, prove and test.

Science can't look beyond the expansion of finite existence. The creator is infinite; not observable for science. So relaying on science to explain existence is a dead end.



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by arcanewings
 


...evolutionist is a stupid word, scientific 'belief' is based on testing and retesting rather than faith, and science is actually something very important. This isn't some out there philosophical problem with no impact on lives. The creationist movement is trying to steadily defeat the progress of science in many countries, the sort of science that saves lives by curing diseases and feeding people. Evolution has direct and useful implications.


An example of an individual so enthralled in the battle he can't see anything other than the enemy. Your argument stinks of scoring points using sympathy and relativity. In doing so you have completely missed the point I made considering creationism and evolution. They are both ideals based on nothing more than our desire to defend an opinion. Maybe when people stop having a pissing match over what and how we should conduct our belief systems, we can begin to work in harmony.

In addition:

You make good points about science being useful, it does save lives and it does make us understand more about our physical universe. It also falls down with the simple assertion of..."Okay, explain how to make matter". You can't, and that is no reason for science to be disregarded. But it is not concrete, and any theories created from science regarding the origins of our existence are strictly theoretical. Which means you believe it based on faith, because you cannot yet prove it is the case.

faith/fāTH/Noun
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.


Now before you go screaming "CREATIONIST".
Creationism provides no proof or anything of tangible result. However, creationism gives people a sense of wonder about the world around them and where they came from. It may not be based on anything relative but it does give some people comfort for those questions and living with those questions. They too have to learn to allow other avenues of discovery to flourish. If you are content with where you are in your belief, then allow others to search in peace for their own truth. Creationist need to smarten up and stop imposing their beliefs on others, it is not your right to conform all to your way of thinking.

In conclusion:

BOTH are speculative in regards to the origin of man. BOTH are based on individual perception. BOTH are at the mercy of the truth that does exist, since clearly we exist. So everyone needs to stop pointing fingers, and fighting on both sides. We need to work together to continue our search instead of fighting over whose got the best guess on our origin.

We all have our own perspectives and knowledge. Open your minds.



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posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


The bottom line! "Broad is the way to destruction, And many are on this life path"

"Narrow is the way to Life = (Eternal Life)

Satan is the god of this world's system of belief's... (Fallen Evil World's Nature of Perception)

Only Those People Who Have A Spiritual Connection To GOD / CREATOR, Can Even Begin To Understand (Creation) But there is hope, Many have left the idea of evolution and Now believe in The Creator!

Faith... makes us certain of realities we do not see.



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by Faith2011
 




Many have left the idea of evolution and Now believe in The Creator!


You just loooove making crap up, lol!






The Discovery Institute has gathered over 600 scientists since 2001 to sign "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" in order to show that there are a number of scientists who dispute what they refer to as "Darwinian evolution". This statement did not profess outright disbelief in evolution, but expressed skepticism as to the ability of "random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life." Several counter-petitions have been launched in turn, including A Scientific Support for Darwinism, which gathered over 7,000 signatures in four days, and Project Steve, a tongue-in-cheek petition that has gathered 1,151 (as of January 18, 2011) evolution-supporting scientists named "Steve".





Some random facts about the acceptance of evolution:

"[A]dults with some understanding of genetics are more likely to have a positive attitude toward evolution."

97.3% of Biological Sciences department heads accept there is no scientific controversy over evolution.

Only 700 out of 480,000 earth and life scientists (00.14%) subscribe to literal biblical creationism.

Acceptance of evolution tends to increase with level of education.

It's not limited to the non-religious, see Theistic evolution. Over 12,000 U.S. Christian clergy accept evolution.

The first known case of science-based evolution acceptance dates back to Charles Darwin's explication of natural selection in 1837.

Basically, anyone who has really looked at the evidence for evolution, including the fossil record and DNA is likely to disbelieve any religious tradition regarding the origin of species and life.


Source

But who cares about facts, right?



edit on 15-4-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by Faith2011
Many have left the idea of evolution and Now believe in The Creator!


Or... kept the theory of evolution in its current form because we understand what it really says... then also came around to absorb the idea of creation (not fundie children's story creationism)... because we understand what all those ancient texts combined with current scientific understanding really say.

The war between the two is an illusion. Like time and matter.

Namaste.



posted on Apr, 15 2011 @ 09:55 PM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 
God can retroactively apply the policies and procedures of the latest Bible translation, so all those not privy to the notion of a Jesuit God will be saved, obviously



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