Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality! -- Part II

Note:
I was planning on adding the rest of Creation facts to the original thread (here) but decided not to as it will make that thread longer and the message might get buried in the pages. Instead I made a decision to make another thread and called it: Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality! -- Part II/Part III(pending). So I would like to suggest that you take a look at the first Part of this thread to see first sets of facts already posted.

OK...

So why is Biblical Creation factually accurate – the Reality! Because the evidence are indisputable and undeniable!

A short note (from Part I):

I don't know about you or your particular sets of belief but to me it is truly awe inspiring, the more I look into it the more I'm convinced of how *Biblical Creation fits the facts of life and the reason why it came to. It's the most amazing thing that happens when one opens his mind to the reality of Biblical Creation. It clears up many of the unknowns. Amazing thing also is that it doesn't even require an advance knowledge of mathematics, physics and science to be able to see the the overwhelming evidence of Creation (although it's good to have one). But with an eye of honest curiosity, awe and humility one can clearly see the Creator's fingerprints all over it. There’s no doubt about it, that life and the Universe are of Divine Origin - as the following evidence will prove. Thus I’m fully convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that life, nature and the universe are products of an intelligent all powerful and loving Creator. This conclusion is not based on conjecture, emotional revelation, credulity or blind faith as some might accused me of but based on honest study and researched of factual evidence – biblical, historical and scientific evidence.

It's also not just me but many experts in various scientific fields see and perceive intelligent design** in nature. Like me they also find it highly illogical to think that the intricate complexity of life on earth and the universe for that matter came about by chance , accident or by an unguided process. Hence, a number of scientists and researchers believe in a Creator.

And it is on these basis that I stand by the FACT that the Bible although penned by men, is Divinely Inspired. As such it agrees with true (verifiable) scientific facts, undeniable, indisputable facts - which confirms *Creation. In addition, it's the ONLY BOOK in existence that explains why we are here and why Creation is factually accurate and contains a reliable satisfactory explanation to the meaning of life. To quote the Scriptures:

“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God . . .” “For with you is the source of life” (2 Timothy 3:16, Psalm 36:9)

Allow me please to present just a few examples (eight facts for now - out of hundreds - just to keep the OP short as possible – I'll post them in sets so that you can take your pick – as it is already extensive).

Continuing …:

Fact 4) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah wrote of God “dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

“the globe of the earth” (Douay Version), and “the round earth.” (Moffatt)

Evidence: false vs. facts

The Encyclopedia Americana says:

“The earliest known image that men had of the earth was that it was a flat, rigid platform at the center of the universe. . . . The concept of a spherical earth was not widely accepted until the Renaissance.”

Funny thing is, some early navigators feared sailing off the edge of the flat earth! Then all of these misconceptions disappeared when the compass and other navigational instruments were introduced. These improvements made possible longer ocean voyages. From these early “voyages of discovery, ...showed that the world was round, not flat as most people had believed.”

Remember Columbus who set sail? Well he was not the first voyager who proved that the earth was “round”.

Notice:

Irving Robbin wrote:

“To believe that one could sail to the East by sailing west, one must also believe that the earth is a sphere. A Genoese sea captain named Christopher Columbus believed this, but he was not alone. He was not alone by many centuries, for as far back as 500 B.C., a Greek scholar, Pythagoras, asserted that the earth was round. A Norwegian textbook written in 1250 not only said the same thing, but also gave the reasons for the varying climates of the earth, the angle of the sun at different times of the year and the prevailing winds. Not all the ancient knowledge had been lost it— was just out of favor for a while.”—The How and Why Wonder Book of Explorations and Discoveries.

Through the use of satellites and space travel – this fact is not debatable - unless you're still a "flat earth" believer.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07d1241f92f5.jpg[/atsimg]

www.youtube.com...

Here again the Bible was not influenced by the erroneous, flat-earth view prevalent when it was written. It was accurate – scientifically accurate that is.

So where did the prophet Isaiah get his information 2700 years ago? Long before Pythagoras and Columbus? Long before we sent satellites into outer space, long before we sent men to the moon? Any idea?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck or did he copied it from other writings as some may say?

All or any of the above? In any case whatever your answer is, one thing is clear Isaiah got it right, do you agree? If so what about the rest of his statements? Are they all wild guesses too?

Whether you admit it or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

Isaiah got the information from someone who has knowledge of time and space. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Isaiah was divinely inspired by someone beyond space and time – by the Almighty God , the Creator of heaven and earth. To which he says:

“. . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth. . .” (Isaiah 40:22)

What say you?

Next evidence:

Fact 5) The Bible states: “Star differs from star in glory.” —1 Cor. 15:41.

Evidence:

Science now knows that there are blue stars, yellow ones, white dwarfs and many other differences.

To quote:

Why are the stars different colors?
At first glance, the stars may appear to all be white, but if you look at them from dark skies for any amount of time, you will see they are a diverse variety of colors,red, yellow, white, and blue.
Why should this be? Why should the stars come in so many colors? Why not just white?
It turns out the answer is because they are hot. All matter emits radiation, peaking at a wavelength (which can sometimes be seen as a color) which is dependent solely on the temperature of the body. This is known as Wein's law (pronounced Veen's law).

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57323ee26113.jpg[/atsimg]

www.universetoday.com...
www.tmclark.com...
Also: www.nasa.gov...
www.youtube.com...

Again - this is a established very well known fact!

So how could the apostle Paul have written scientific truths when he did not even have an instrument as crude as Galileo’s to inform him? Again Divine inspiration is the logical answer!

Next:

Fact 6) Of constellations Job was asked by God: “Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation, or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38:31-33.

www.astro.wisc.edu...

Are these statements from God Himself, the Creator of the heavens and earth factually accurate?

What does the evidence show:

According to 1001 Questions Answered About Astronomy. James S. Pickering said the following:

“There are 88 recognized constellations in the heavens now,” Constellations should be considered in the same light as geographical entities. They designate specific areas on the celestial sphere, and are the addresses of all stars and other objects permanently within their borders and of planets, comets, meteors, the Sun, Moon and other temporary visitors to their areas. Constellations are infinite in depth.”

How could a *"goat and sheep herder” like Job be able to comprehend such an awesome heavenly bodies (constellations) if not made aware of it? And where did the writer of Job (Moses) get this information 3400 years ago? Way before the advent of modern astronomy?

Coincidence, lucky guess or Divine inspiration – the later is the obvious and the only logical answer. That is, from someone who has knowledge of space and time and above the heavenly bodies – the Creator Jehovah God (Isa 40:26).

*(as Bible writers are known here on ATS)

>> As for the “the statutes of the heavens” or “the laws of nature on earth” (Job 38:33, The New English Bible/ see also Jeremiah 33:25) - is this statement scientifically accurate?

Notice what “Our Astonishing Atmosphere” says:

“The dark patches on the sun which we call sunspots are believed to be areas of intense activity. Great surges of atomic upheaval boil up from inside the sun. Accompanying these solar eruptions are huge flares that can be seen sweeping out from the sun’s surface into space. And associated with the flares are streams of electrically charged atomic particles that are spewed out from the sun like water from a hose. . . . When sunspots are active the earth’s magnetism is disturbed. Compass needles misbehave, and the earth acts as though it were a magnet influenced by tremendous electric currents passing near to it. Immediately after a sunspot flare is seen there is a disturbance of radio communications over the sunlit area of the earth. And a day later comes the magnetic storm, the aurora, and a further disturbance of radio communications, less severe than the first but affecting the entire world. Electric currents set up in the earth’s crust can be powerful enough to upset telephone communications as well.”

Consider also the Weak and Strong Forces that govern the Universe. These forces are so intricately FINE TUNED that the universe maintain its balance. Are there "bonds" (forces) that hold these stellar constellations together? And what accounts for the fine-tuning of the these physical forces, the “the statutes of the heavens”?

Absolutely!

Consider:

1) ELECTROMAGNETISM
2) STRONG NUCLEAR FORCE
3) GRAVITY
4) WEAK NUCLEAR FORCE

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...
imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Consider also Newton's Laws of Motion and Kepler's Laws of Planetary motion. Do they show a superb organization?

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...'s_laws_of_planetary_motion

So how did the writer of the Bible knew that such laws or “statutes of the heavens” exist?

Lucky guess, coincidence or Divine inspiration? The logical and obvious answer is Divine inspiration from the Creator Himself! To which the question was asked:

“Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38: 33.

What say you ATS?


Note: see Part I for **Supplemental Information:
T
Bible Books:
Genesis
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1513 B.C.E.
Time Covered: “In the beginning” to 1657 B.C.E.
(3524 ya)

Job
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: c. 1473 B.C.E.
Time Covered: Over 140 years between 1657 and 1473 B.C.E.
(3484 ya)

Isaiah
Writer: Isaiah
Place Written: Jerusalem
Writing Completed: After 732 B.C.E.
Time Covered: c. 778–after 732 B.C.E.
(2743)

1 Corinthians
Writer: Paul
Place Written: Ephesus
Writing Completed: c. 55 C.E
(2066 ya)

======
Note: Correction on Part I: the biggest KNOWN star in the universe so far according to some is “Eta Carinae” with a radius of 400 times the size of the Sun but others say VY Canis Majoris with the size past the orbit of Mars (not the Milky Way Galaxy) - but still being debated as the universe is so huge.
======

--- end transmission –

Next Part III:

Please sum up some points that aren't completely ridiculous. I don't have time to read through everything as I'm too busy working in the field of actual science. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the ancient Greek Eratosthenes who first deduced that the world was spherical? And who is to say that others before him hadn't already reached this conclusion? A lot of history has been lost in the dusts of time. So the bible referring to the Earth as a globe isn't that exciting, and does not offer any evidence whatsoever for creationism.


As for the difference of size between stars, well, you can actually see on a clear night, that stars do seem to differ in apparent size - the ones further away will appear smaller and duller. Or was that line referring to the more 'important' stars, as in those used in navigation such as Polaris? Or did it mean those that formed constellations? I really see nothing here suggesting a factual basis for creationism.

If there are any other points you feel will 'prove' creationism, then please feel free to let me know so I can illuminate you and introduce you to the world of rationality. I want to hear your 'proof' of a god creating life and sidestepping natural biological (and geological.. and chemical... and astrophysical) evolution.

Edit: one more thing: it's all based on interpretation. You can twist anyone's words to suit your own purpose. I think the original meaning of those quotes have been lost in your desperation to find support for your agenda.

reply to post by DeepThoughtCriminal

If there are any other points you feel will 'prove' creationism, then please feel free to let me know so I can illuminate you and introduce you to the world of rationality. I want to hear your 'proof' of a god creating life and sidestepping natural biological (and geological.. and chemical... and astrophysical) evolution.

OK - but tell me this please, do you agree that the evidence presented above are scientifically accurate?

If so - then the Bible is accurate when put against these established facts - unless you disagree.

ty,
edmc2

...anyway I'd like converse more...but need to hit the sack..

The facts you posted along with the scientific explanations are unrelated to each other, except perhaps fact 4. You have taken a giant leap of interpretation and are connecting things that are unrelated, desperately.

For example: "Star differs from star in glory." . How can you assume that this statement is referring to colour? For all you know it is referring to the magnitude..

reply to post by edmc^2


Not necessarily. They can be interpreted as being scientifically accurate if that's the way you choose to comprehend it. Show me some mathematics and I'll get back to you. Oh wait, no mathematics? Just words written by unidentified people? Hrmm...

I don't mean to be disrespectful to your beliefs, but please don't disrespect science by claiming to have evidence for creationism. As I said, there is every chance that the ancients knew a lot more about the nature of the Earth and universe than we gave them credit for, therefore this could easily have been based on discoveries previously made and since lost for a long time. What you have is not evidence. Interesting in an historical perspective, but not evidence for a divine creator.

forr every thing that the bible states that has been proven a fact, there will probably be atleast 10 things that have been proven to be utter bollocks.
you might aswell go read a few xmen comics as you are bound to find a similar level of factual stuff in there.

Here is the document I referenced in part 1:

It is titled: "The Law of Everything as Derived From the Noble Quran" by Dr. Zaid Ghazzawi PhD in Biomedical Engineering.

Here is the link for the 168pg Scribd document for anybody interesting in reading it.

www.scribd.com...

In it he is very scientific and backs it all up with verses from the Quran and hard scientific evidence and graphics/images. As a non-muslim but as somebody who has read the Quran (along with numerous other sacred texts as part of my cross-religious studies) I had no investment on the "rightness" of his writings but found it to be accurate nonetheless. Here we have another sacred text, like the Bible that addresses scientific phenomenon that we are just coming to understand more deeply in this day and age. How scientific does it get? Here's the Table of Contents. I highly recommend it for anybody who is interested in connecting spirituality with science.

Table of contents.............................................................................................. 2 Introduction...................................................................................................... 5

Energy mechanics of water.............................................................................. 7
1. Propagation of energy in water..................................................................................... 7
2. Structural arrangement of water................................................................................... 9
3. Water waves................................................................................................................ 12
4. The basic unit of the structure of energy.................................................................... 14
5. Discrete structure of energy........................................................................................ 15
6. Structural organization of energy weaved ropes in space........................................... 15
7. Vibratory state of energy weaved ropes...................................................................... 17
8. Modes of Vibrations of energy weaved ropes............................................................. 18
9. The function of energy weaved ropes......................................................................... 19
10. Propagation of energy................................................................................... . . . . . . . . . . . 20
11. The interaction of energy weaved ropes with matter................................................ 26
12 The amount of energy experienced by an object....................................................... 28
13. Optimal ratio of the magnitude of energy and the area experiencing this energy.... 28
14. The fabric of energy.......................................................................................... . . . . . . . 30
15 Interaction of water waves......................................................................................... 33

.......................................................................................................................................40
1. Structure of matter...................................................................................................... 41
2. Structure of the atom.................................................................................................. 42
3. Objects in the seven heavens of the atom................................................................... 43
4. Structure of the objects in the seven heavens of the atom.......................................... 43
5. Motion of the objects in the seven heavens of the atom............................................. 44
6. Shape of the nucleus of the atom................................................................................ 45
7. Status of the nucleus of the atom................................................................................ 45
8. Number of objects in the heavens of the atom........................................................... 47
9. Energy within the seven heavens of the atom............................................................. 48
10. Stability of the atom.................................................................................................. 48
11. Absorption of energy by matter................................................................................ 50
12. The energy that drives the objects in the heavens of the atom................................. 51
13. Radial movement of the objects in the heavens of the atom.................................... 53
14. Are the objects in the heavens of the atom matter or energy?.................................. 54
15. Stable configuration of the atom.............................................................................. 54
16. The orbiting speed of the objects in the heavens of the atom................................... 55
17. The importance of the weight of the atom................................................................ 56
1. Stability of the atom:.............................................................................................. 57
2. Atomic bonding:..................................................................................................... 57
3. The amount and rate of energy flow from and to the atom.................................... 59
18. The flow of matter.................................................................................................... 59
19. How to derive the laws that govern energy and matter in the creation of Allah (God) Almighty from the Noble Qur’an................................................................................... 64
20. The concept of a constant and variable energy fields............................................... 67
21. Why atoms take in and give off energy (thermal, electrical, acoustic, etc.)?........... 68
22. Balance of the lattice structure of materials............................................................. 71

The ability of the law of everything as derived from the Noble Qur’an to
explain and predict the outcome of observed phenomena............................. 73

Gravitation ((هيبذاجل......................................................................................................... 73
1. Understanding how gravitational energy interacts with matter (i.e. the phenomenon of gravity)......................................................................................... . . . . . 73
2.The relationship between mass and shape............................................................... 79
3.Perfect match between the stability of the earth and that of the atom..................... 81
4.The concept of the center of gravity........................................................................ 84 ٍ

Structural ((تآشنمل.......................................................................................... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 87
1. Various types of atomic bonds................................................................................ 87
2. The concept of stress............................................................................................... 87
3. Density of materials................................................................................................ 89
4. Stiffness of materials.............................................................................................. 90
5. Fatigue of materials................................................................................................ 92
6. Strength of matter................................................................................................... 96
7. Stress concentration phenomena............................................................................. 96
8. Prediction of material behavior under load............................................................ 98
9. Phenomenon of friction........................................................................................ 101

Fluidic ((عئومل............................................................................................................... 103
1. Fluid flow in conduits.......................................................................................... 103
2. Resistance of conduits to fluid flow..................................................................... 104
3. Diffusion of matter................................................................................................ 106
4. Evaporation and condensation of water................................................................ 112

Electricity and magnetism ( (ةيسيطانغمل  ةيئابركل.......................................................... 115
1. The nature of the electron..................................................................................... 115
2. The concept of an electric current......................................................................... 116
3. The phenomenon of superconductivity................................................................. 118
4. Production of a magnetic field.............................................................................. 119
5. Classification of materials according to their magnetic properties...................... 121
6. The concept of light.............................................................................................. 122
7. Production of light by the sun............................................................................... 124
8. Optical properties of materials.............................................................................. 125

Thermal Energy ( (ةرحل ةقال..................................................................................... 127
1. The concept of thermal energy............................................................................. 127
2. Modes of transport of thermal energy................................................................. . 128
3. Speed of heat transport in matter.......................................................................... 133
4. The concept of heat capacity of materials............................................................ 134
5. Thermal induced displacements in materials........................................................ 135
5.1 The relationship between the weight of the atom and the amount of thermally induced mechanical displacements........................................................................... 137
6. Behavior of materials upon heating and cooling.................................................. 139

Biomedical Engineering ( (ةويحل ةيل ةدنل................................................................ 141
1. Biocompatibility ((ويحل بال............................................................................ 141

Applications from the law of everything as derived from the Noble Qur’an ......................................................................................................................150
Structural applications................................................................................. . 150
Application (1): The design of load handling structures from the Noble Qur’an:....... 150
Application (2) How to reduce friction? as derived from the Noble Qur’an............... 152

Fluidic applications...................................................................................... 153
Application (1): Comparing the difference between the behavior of cold and hot water ......................................................................................................................................153
Electrical and magnetic applications............................................................ 154
Application (1): Achieving superconductivity at temperatures above room temperature
(i.e. above 25 degrees centigrade)................................................................................ 154

Mathematical applications........................................................................... 156
Application (1): The main function describing the form of energy and matter.... . . . . . . . 156

Biological applications............................................................................ . . . . . 162
Application (1): A new testing medium for biological experimentation...................... 162
....................................................................................................................................167

Originally posted by edmc^2
...anyway I'd like converse more...but need to hit the sack..

edit on 10-4-2011 by edmc^2 because: ...

And I just hit my monitor - now I have a sore hand and a bung monitor.

God.....

Originally posted by edmc^2

Continuing …:

Fact 4) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah wrote of God “dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

“the globe of the earth” (Douay Version), and “the round earth.” (Moffatt)


So where did the prophet Isaiah get his information 2700 years ago? Long before Pythagoras and Columbus? Long before we sent satellites into outer space, long before we sent men to the moon? Any idea?


“. . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth. . .” (Isaiah 40:22)

...................................................................................................................................................... .
Next evidence:

Fact 5) The Bible states: “Star differs from star in glory.” —1 Cor. 15:41.

Evidence:

Science now knows that there are blue stars, yellow ones, white dwarfs and many other differences.

To quote:

Why are the stars different colors?
At first glance, the stars may appear to all be white, but if you look at them from dark skies for any amount of time, you will see they are a diverse variety of colors,red, yellow, white, and blue.
Why should this be? Why should the stars come in so many colors? Why not just white?
It turns out the answer is because they are hot. All matter emits radiation, peaking at a wavelength (which can sometimes be seen as a color) which is dependent solely on the temperature of the body. This is known as Wein's law (pronounced Veen's law).

...................................................................................................................................................... .............................

Fact 6) Of constellations Job was asked by God: “Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation, or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38:31-33.

www.astro.wisc.edu...

Are these statements from God Himself, the Creator of the heavens and earth factually accurate?

What does the evidence show:

According to 1001 Questions Answered About Astronomy. James S. Pickering said the following:

“There are 88 recognized constellations in the heavens now,” Constellations should be considered in the same light as geographical entities. They designate specific areas on the celestial sphere, and are the addresses of all stars and other objects permanently within their borders and of planets, comets, meteors, the Sun, Moon and other temporary visitors to their areas. Constellations are infinite in depth.”

How could a *"goat and sheep herder” like Job be able to comprehend such an awesome heavenly bodies (constellations) if not made aware of it? And where did the writer of Job (Moses) get this information 3400 years ago? Way before the advent of modern astronomy?

...................................................................................................................................................... ...........

>> As for the “the statutes of the heavens” or “the laws of nature on earth” (Job 38:33, The New English Bible/ see also Jeremiah 33:25) - is this statement scientifically accurate?

Notice what “Our Astonishing Atmosphere” says:

“The dark patches on the sun which we call sunspots are believed to be areas of intense activity. Great surges of atomic upheaval boil up from inside the sun. Accompanying these solar eruptions are huge flares that can be seen sweeping out from the sun’s surface into space. And associated with the flares are streams of electrically charged atomic particles that are spewed out from the sun like water from a hose. . . . When sunspots are active the earth’s magnetism is disturbed. Compass needles misbehave, and the earth acts as though it were a magnet influenced by tremendous electric currents passing near to it. Immediately after a sunspot flare is seen there is a disturbance of radio communications over the sunlit area of the earth. And a day later comes the magnetic storm, the aurora, and a further disturbance of radio communications, less severe than the first but affecting the entire world. Electric currents set up in the earth’s crust can be powerful enough to upset telephone communications as well.”

Consider also the Weak and Strong Forces that govern the Universe. These forces are so intricately FINE TUNED that the universe maintain its balance. Are there "bonds" (forces) that hold these stellar constellations together? And what accounts for the fine-tuning of the these physical forces, the “the statutes of the heavens”?

Absolutely!

Consider:

1) ELECTROMAGNETISM
2) STRONG NUCLEAR FORCE
3) GRAVITY
4) WEAK NUCLEAR FORCE

edit on 10-4-2011 by edmc^2 because: added constellation link/list/moved note at the end

First Point.....Flat Earth.
If you read these verses carefully and are careful to use the most precise translation (which is not "globe" but circle) they say nothing of a spherical earth, but a disc shaped earth. This was EXACTLY the common conception of the shape of the Earth back then in that area of the world. In early Mesopotamian mythology, the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean and surrounded by a spherical sky, and this forms the premise for early world maps like those of Anaximander and Hecataeus of Miletus.

Second Point......Knowledge of the "Glory" of the Stars
Without a definition of "glory" one would assume what is meant is size, brightness and perhaps color....all of these things can easily be made out with the naked eye, especially considering astronomy was such a powerful motivator to the peoples of that era. Throughout history pretty much every halfway advanced (and many downright primitive) cultures had a vast knowledge of the comings and goings of the stars.....look at the Mayans. They were in many respects at a similiar point to the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians of that era. An extensive knowledge of the stars were recorded in even the most ancient civilizations known to us today.

Third Point....Knowledge of Constellations
Yeah....see my answer above. One need not a telescope or even scientific instrument to view the stars above and find the Constellations.....not really sure where you are even going with this one. You do realize how extensive the knowledge was of the heavens even back to Babylonia the most ancient civilization in the area (and one of the most ancient known to us today) do you not? I'd read a bit on this.....you seem to have some extraordinary misconceptions......all of this is common knowledge to anyone who even watches the Discovery Channel. I'd start with your local library though.

Fourth Point.....the laws of nature
HUH? I couldn't even begin to follow your logic here.....do you think that ancient people had no clue that the world was governed by Laws of Nature?! You do realize that you need a working Idea of some of these laws to.....oh I dunno.....build Pyramids, or Boats, or even tend to your animals correctly. Simply because they knew the universe had laws.......why do you....I mean....what are you even suggesting?!?! You go on to talk about sunspots and Newton!!! SAY WHAT?!?! Sorry my friend but you are just coming off as a bit delusional here.....I can't even begin to follow your logic. How does knowing that there are laws such as how a lever works, or a correctly built combination of reeds and wood will float on the water translate in your mind to Sunspots and The Strong Nuclear Force??? LMAO!!!! Wow...there is stretching then there is STREEEEEETTTTTCCCCHHHIIIIINNNNGGGG!

To add to the OP, as clear as the bible is in describing the things written in OP it is also very reliable on a much smaller scale. The bible hints at deeper knowledge of our microcosmos here on earth, giving detailed instructions aimed at keeping humans healthy. Sanitary practices, foods wich are safe as opposed to foods from wich we now know that they are infested with bacteria and parasites.

One can say that there were clever minds who figured out that the earth was a sphere before the bible spoke of it but its strecting it when you'd say they had microscopes iin those times...

Originally posted by edmc^2
Fact 4) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah wrote of God “dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

“the globe of the earth” (Douay Version), and “the round earth.” (Moffatt)

Evidence: false vs. facts

The Encyclopedia Americana says:

“The earliest known image that men had of the earth was that it was a flat, rigid platform at the center of the universe. . . . The concept of a spherical earth was not widely accepted until the Renaissance.”

Funny thing is, some early navigators feared sailing off the edge of the flat earth! Then all of these misconceptions disappeared when the compass and other navigational instruments were introduced. These improvements made possible longer ocean voyages. From these early “voyages of discovery, ...showed that the world was round, not flat as most people had believed.”

Remember Columbus who set sail? Well he was not the first voyager who proved that the earth was “round”.

Notice:

Irving Robbin wrote:

“To believe that one could sail to the East by sailing west, one must also believe that the earth is a sphere. A Genoese sea captain named Christopher Columbus believed this, but he was not alone. He was not alone by many centuries, for as far back as 500 B.C., a Greek scholar, Pythagoras, asserted that the earth was round. A Norwegian textbook written in 1250 not only said the same thing, but also gave the reasons for the varying climates of the earth, the angle of the sun at different times of the year and the prevailing winds. Not all the ancient knowledge had been lost it— was just out of favor for a while.”—The How and Why Wonder Book of Explorations and Discoveries.

Through the use of satellites and space travel – this fact is not debatable - unless you're still a "flat earth" believer.

Here again the Bible was not influenced by the erroneous, flat-earth view prevalent when it was written. It was accurate – scientifically accurate that is.

So where did the prophet Isaiah get his information 2700 years ago? Long before Pythagoras and Columbus? Long before we sent satellites into outer space, long before we sent men to the moon? Any idea?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck or did he copied it from other writings as some may say?

All or any of the above? In any case whatever your answer is, one thing is clear Isaiah got it right, do you agree? If so what about the rest of his statements? Are they all wild guesses too?

Whether you admit it or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

Isaiah got the information from someone who has knowledge of time and space. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Isaiah was divinely inspired by someone beyond space and time – by the Almighty God , the Creator of heaven and earth. To which he says:

“. . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth. . .” (Isaiah 40:22)

What say you?

So "circle" and "round" imply a sphere? No, a circle is planar and round is ambiguous. And the Douay translation, the only one that mentions something that is spherical? It was translated from the Latin Vulgate Bible. Here's Isaiah 40:22 in Latin:

"… qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum… "

They translated "gyrum", which means a circle or ring, into "globe". This is I what I meant in my reply to your previous thread about how you're basing your "evidence" on translations of translations of translations. So of the three translations you're using, one confirms that it's a flat disc, one is ambiguous, and the other mistranslates from its source material. Hardly convincing evidence.

Fact 5) The Bible states: “Star differs from star in glory.” —1 Cor. 15:41.

Evidence:

Science now knows that there are blue stars, yellow ones, white dwarfs and many other differences.

To quote:

Why are the stars different colors?
At first glance, the stars may appear to all be white, but if you look at them from dark skies for any amount of time, you will see they are a diverse variety of colors,red, yellow, white, and blue.
Why should this be? Why should the stars come in so many colors? Why not just white?
It turns out the answer is because they are hot. All matter emits radiation, peaking at a wavelength (which can sometimes be seen as a color) which is dependent solely on the temperature of the body. This is known as Wein's law (pronounced Veen's law).

Again - this is a established very well known fact!

So how could the apostle Paul have written scientific truths when he did not even have an instrument as crude as Galileo’s to inform him? Again Divine inspiration is the logical answer!

So "glory" means color? Why not just say color? If anything, I would interpret glory as intensity. The logical answer is that we can differentiate the intensity of stars with our naked eye. Looking up at the sky and remarking that some stars are brighter than others is evidence? No.

Fact 6) Of constellations Job was asked by God: “Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation, or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38:31-33.

Are these statements from God Himself, the Creator of the heavens and earth factually accurate?

What does the evidence show:

According to 1001 Questions Answered About Astronomy. James S. Pickering said the following:
“There are 88 recognized constellations in the heavens now,” Constellations should be considered in the same light as geographical entities. They designate specific areas on the celestial sphere, and are the addresses of all stars and other objects permanently within their borders and of planets, comets, meteors, the Sun, Moon and other temporary visitors to their areas. Constellations are infinite in depth.”

How could a *"goat and sheep herder” like Job be able to comprehend such an awesome heavenly bodies (constellations) if not made aware of it? And where did the writer of Job (Moses) get this information 3400 years ago? Way before the advent of modern astronomy?

How? The same way we "recognize" shapes in clouds. Humans are great at pattern recognition. I see nothing profound about looking up at the stars and seeing arrangements that might remind one of something they've seen before.

Consider also the Weak and Strong Forces that govern the Universe. These forces are so intricately FINE TUNED that the universe maintain its balance. Are there "bonds" (forces) that hold these stellar constellations together? And what accounts for the fine-tuning of the these physical forces, the “the statutes of the heavens”?

You mean those forces that are so finely tuned that we can actually discard one of them and have essentially the same universe? All you're describing here is the anthropic principle.

Your last thread was the stronger of the two, and it was wholly refutable. I hope you saved something better for the third installment.

reply to post by faceoff85

To add to the OP, as clear as the bible is in describing the things written in OP it is also very reliable on a much smaller scale. The bible hints at deeper knowledge of our microcosmos here on earth, giving detailed instructions aimed at keeping humans healthy. Sanitary practices, foods wich are safe as opposed to foods from wich we now know that they are infested with bacteria and parasites.

Again, the Quran had similar information in this regard.

Originally posted by edmc^2
Fact 4) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah wrote of God “dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

What say you?

I say that a circle is a two dimensional object. In other words, flat.

Originally posted by edmc^2
Fact 5) The Bible states: “Star differs from star in glory.” —1 Cor. 15:41.

What say you ATS?

I say that it doesn't imply, at all, that the writer had an understanding of interstellar physics. A more logical explanation is that it simply means brightness, which is actually a synonym for glory. "Star differs from star in brightness." - Totally true. We can actually see this when we look at the stars from the ground, though that has more to do with distance than how bright the actual stars are (I'm pretty sure, at least.)

Fact 6) Of constellations Job was asked by God: “Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation, or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38:31-33.

What say you ATS?

I say that humans have been astrologers for thousands of years, all over the world. It wasn't hard to look at the patterns of the stars and say "Hey, that looks like a lion." or something. In fact, this is how the "draw by numbers" pictures in coloring books work, and those are for children.

-----------------------------------

I don't see any evidence here, just overreaching interpretations and sleight of hand.

reply to post by edmc^2


Or the short version: The argument from ignorance.


We've gone over all of these argument before, time and again. They don't hold up and they clearly demonstrate your ignorance of both science and logical thought.

reply to post by edmc^2


Well, we already know all the points you made in the first thread are hogwash...so let's have a look at the claims in here

Fact 4) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah wrote of God “dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

So wait...because you claim the bible states the earth is round, that's somehow proof god exists? HOW??

The Greeks knew about the earth being round well before the bible was written...so it most certainly doesn't prove god exists

Remember Columbus who set sail? Well he was not the first voyager who proved that the earth was “round”.

Actually, by the time Columbus sailed to the US, it was know for 1,800 years (!!!) that the earth was round. But who cares about facts, right?

3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

Source

So where did the prophet Isaiah get his information 2700 years ago? Long before Pythagoras and Columbus?

The Greeks?

Whether you admit it or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

Isaiah got the information from someone who has knowledge of time and space.

True, the Greeks...

In other words Isaiah was divinely inspired by someone beyond space and time – by the Almighty God , the Creator of heaven and earth.

Not sure why you insist on calling the Greeks "god" or "creator"...although they do create a delicious drink called Uzo

Fact 5) The Bible states: “Star differs from star in glory.” —1 Cor. 15:41.

What is a star in glory?

Science now knows that there are blue stars, yellow ones, white dwarfs and many other differences.

Well, if you look up into the sky, even without binoculars or a telescope, you realize the stars have different colors. If that's what he meant with "glory", well...it's easily observable if you look up into the sky.

So how could the apostle Paul have written scientific truths when he did not even have an instrument as crude as Galileo’s to inform him? Again Divine inspiration is the logical answer!

No...the logical answer is he looked up into the sky and decided a "reddish" star is in glory...or something along those lines. No proof of a creator has been provided yet again

Fact 6) Of constellations Job was asked by God: “Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation, or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, or could you put its authority in the earth?”—Job 38:31-33.

How could a *"goat and sheep herder” like Job be able to comprehend such an awesome heavenly bodies (constellations) if not made aware of it? And where did the writer of Job (Moses) get this information 3400 years ago? Way before the advent of modern astronomy?

Again, by looking up into the sky. The ancient Greeks for example have used the constellations for navigation for centuries before the bible was even written.

Coincidence, lucky guess or Divine inspiration – the later is the obvious and the only logical answer.

Again, where's your objective evidence for that? Especially considering people used constellations for navigation way before the bible was written??

So how did the writer of the Bible knew that such laws or “statutes of the heavens” exist?

Nowhere in the bible is gravity mentioned, or Keplar's laws for that matter.

Genesis
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1513 B.C.E.
Time Covered: “In the beginning” to 1657 B.C.E.
(3524 ya)

Actually, the old testament was written way way way way waaaay after 1513BC.

The Old Testament consists of a collection of writings believed to have been composed at various times from the twelfth to the 2nd century BC.

Either way, the bible is full of inconsistencies.

I have to admit, I'm a bit disappointed, you didn't back up a single one of your claims...other than presenting a scientific fact (eg Big Bang), and then making the HUUUUUUUUGE leap of faith claiming "god did it" without presenting even a tiny piece of objective evidence.

If this was a test at uni, you'd fail...sorry

There is no viable reason to start a continuation thread on an existing thread.

Please continue the discussion in the first thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thread closed.