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Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality!
page: 15share:
reply to post by uva3021
Yes, Your Body Will Rot and Decay, But You Are Eternal, Your Soul Will Go On...
This is Reality!
Yes, Your Body Will Rot and Decay, But You Are Eternal, Your Soul Will Go On...
This is Reality!
reply to post by Faith2011
And once again you continue to preach your PERSONAL BELIEF...instead of providing any meaningful facts that would prove your claims as such.
Yes, Your Body Will Rot and Decay, But You Are Eternal, Your Soul Will Go On...
This is Reality!
And once again you continue to preach your PERSONAL BELIEF...instead of providing any meaningful facts that would prove your claims as such.
reply to post by Faith2011
Thanks for all the comedy videos
It's just a bunch of videos of people stating their beliefs...but not one of them backs it up with objective evidence. Which isn't surprising the programs seem to come from Christian faith channels. Basically, it's preaching, nothing more
Thanks for all the comedy videos
It's just a bunch of videos of people stating their beliefs...but not one of them backs it up with objective evidence. Which isn't surprising the programs seem to come from Christian faith channels. Basically, it's preaching, nothing more
reply to post by Faith2011
You know I said Jesus isn't necesary if the judgment is upon an individuals actions. What you did there is why Mr. XYZ says you are just preaching. I presented an idea outside of your belief and you couldn't even look at it just to evaluate it you just posted the stock answer.
You know I said Jesus isn't necesary if the judgment is upon an individuals actions. What you did there is why Mr. XYZ says you are just preaching. I presented an idea outside of your belief and you couldn't even look at it just to evaluate it you just posted the stock answer.
Hi edmc –
I just discovered your post buried on this thread – you raise a number of points that need to be addressed – I will try to give as much background as space allows…
First your ‘late canonical ‘ list of the post R. Akiba Hebrew ‘old testament’ canon shows you are unaware of the state of thee canon during the lifetime of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef and his disciples – i.e. your OT ‘canonical list’ merely reflects the LATE list of Jewish scrolls ‘which defiled the hands’ that came into general acceptance by Jews only after AD 150, and is NOT the same list of ‘sacred’ books regarded as ‘defiling the hands’ that were used by the earliest 1st Century Jews or the earliest Christians or the the Dead Sea Scroll copyists - were still copying all their contradictory texts with wild textual abandon until AD 68 when Rome put a stop to them.
Again, was a BIG dividing line between the canonical ‘sacred’ OT texts BEFORE Jamnia and what was considered sacred AFTER Jamnia (these texts also differed between copies with hundreds of major and minor textual variants between them) in use in different places before Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in AD 70…
This is a very important point.
The peculiar Masoretic family of texts (proto-MT) that eventually became ‘standard ‘ was based on several that non Palestinian ‘foreign’ Rebbes from Babylonia (e.g. Hillel II) tried to foist on the tattered post AD 70 Judaism (without a Temple standing, Jews turned to their books – and the Babylonian Rebbes held all the cards) - thus began the post AD 90 Debate as to what Books and What Version of those Books specifically was to be regarded as sacred ‘canon’ by the Jews–
These debates lasted until after AD 150 (e.g. even such later canonical books as The Song of Songs and Esther were fiercely being debated ref: canonicity as late as AD 130)
Josephus unfortunately is of little use to you in your argument to foist a post-Jamnia canonical list onto a pre-Jamnia milieu since Josephus did not make his ‘canonicity claims’ of the ‘sacred writings of the Jews’ until after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 when most of the non-Masoretic texts were burned along with the city of Jerusalem itself and the Rebbes at Jamnia had more or less weeded out anything that they themselves did not hold as ‘defiling the hands’. Had Josephus wrote his history 50 years earlier, he would have come up with a much longer list of books.
Technically we have extant no actual canonical ‘list’ of sacred Jewish writings until the time of R. Akiba in the late 2nd century AD – all we can do is look for citations in earlier writings to see what texts they used as authoritative texts in looking for the ‘divine will’ e.g. expressed as prophecy --the same way, say, the author of Jude, uses ‘I Henoch’ as canonical ‘authoritative’ prophecy via e.g. the pesher method as prophecy to be taken as the word of ‘god’ (Jude 1:14-16);
The Dead Sea Scroll Jews also used The Books of Henoch and the Testament of Moses/Jubilees the same way, citing both books as canonically authoritative for the Qumran covenanters near Jerusaleem (see Pesher fragments 4Q 266: 8ii 2-3, 228a, 4Q 228b, 4Q 228c, 4Q 228d, 4Q 228 e, 4Q 228f 4 Q 228 g and 4Q180 as well as all the tiny fragments which were originally part of columns 10 and 16 of the CDamascus Document which cites pesher type passages from Henoch and Jubilees as authoritative ‘canonical scripture’ from which to derive both prophecy and to derive their strict halakhot (=‘the way to live righteously’) - in other words they used I Henoch and Jubilees as scripture.
Don’t forget, we are NOT dealing with a single Judaism with a single list of sacred books between two covers in the 1st century AD
Just as when scholars speak of ‘Christianities’ in the plural in the 1st to the 5th centuries AD, we must also speak of ‘Judaeisms’ in the centuries before and immediately after the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef and his disciples - that is to say, in the PLURAL. And plurality of religious outlooks means plurality of texts and text types to support their pluralities.
Each one of these different ‘Judaeisms’ [before the Jewish War wiped most of them out in AD 70] had their own list of ‘sacred books’, all of them holding the ‘Torah’ (in various versions depending on the group) as ‘defiling the hands’ i.e. canonical, but some also adding the prophets and the psalms.
The only reason we know so much about the ‘fluidity of the texts’ before the Failed Jewish War of AD 70 is that the Dead Sea Scroll copyist-priests buried a ‘time capsule’ of more than 800 sacred texts sealed up in caves, many in jars where they can be read today – in all their contradictory textual glory. A nightmare for modern ‘believers’ (which is why they were not published for a long time) but a treasure trove for scholarship.
Here are some of the Judaisms around when ‘Jesus’ lived:
The Zadokkim (‘Sadduccees’, i.e. ‘sons of Zadok’ who ran the Jerusalem cult as priests who regarded the 5 books of the TORAH ONLY as canonical ‘defiling the hands’)- they rejected the Psalms and the Prophets and the Writings as ‘canonical’.
The Samaratim (Assyrian converted Jews who broke off from the Jerusalem establishment in the 5th century BCE and moved to the area near present day Nablus, near Mount Gerazim, their holy Hill, who ALSO only regarded the Torah as ‘defiling the hands’ – i.e. they like the Zadukim did not consider the prophets to be holy canonical scripture nor the writings like the Psalms or Job etc.)
The anti-Maccabbean 167 BCE splinter group of the priestly Sadducees (see 4 Q MMT) aka ‘the Sons of Light, Followers of the Way’ etc. at Qumran (i.e the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanter-priests who claimed to be ‘the true sons of Zadok’ i.e The True Sadducees - who held overlapping Pharasaic- & Essenoid beliefs in Angels, the Resurrection of the Dead, Daemons, and a belief in the canonicity of the Torah, the Prophets & 1 Henoch and the Testament of Moses/Jubilees & The Testaments of the 12 and the Psalms (to which they had 5 extra ones of their own) as ‘defiling the hands’ – all upon which they lavished sometimes elaborate Pesherim-commentaries);
The Zealotim (murderously armed Messianic militants, one of whom is mentioned as a disciple of ‘Iesous’ who went by the name of Shimeon ha Kananiah (or Simon Zealotes, ‘Simon the Zealot’),
The ‘Ossim (Gk. Essenoi / Essenes) which existed in two versions one of them were married ‘in the camps of Israel’ scattered around the country, and the other group ‘celibate virgin males who called themselves ‘Angels undefiled by the filfth of the Female’ who remained childless who seemed to be related to (if not the same group) the Messianic Dead Sea Scroll priests; and of course the Pharasim (‘separated ones’) who taught the Torah of Moses in the Synagogues who like the Dead Sea Scroll sect, believed in Angels and the Resurrection of the Dead and believed the ‘prophets and the psalms’ all ‘defiled the hands’ (unlike the Samaratim and the Zadukkim who only held as canonical the Torah in their OWN different textual versions, by the way...)
We could also add the Greek Speaking Diaspora Jews as a separate differentiated ‘group’ (but these differed between each other according to what city they lived in and should be classified as different Judaisem-sub-groups (e.g. Philo of Alexandria’s Diaspora Alexandrian Judaism was different from the Judaiesm practiced in Corinth or Thessalonica etc.)
The Alexandrian Theapuetae (Chassidim) who seemed curiously ‘Essenoid / Dead Sea Scroll’ covenanter related – and may have been responsible for the Chester Beatty fragments who regarded 1 Henoch as ‘sacred.’.
Each of these ‘Judaisms’ had their own pre-AD70 lists and versions to use as sacred canonical scriptures—and their different lists of Old testament writings affected the later Christianities which evolved out of one group or another.
A quick example would be the Christianity practiced by the persons responsible for the Syriac Peshi tta B canon which was based on a Judaism that excluded the book of Chronicles as canonical. A similar Peshi tta Christianity (Peshi tta A) retained Chronicles as a book ‘which defiled the hands’ so, we can see that even within the same general area there were divisions of opinion among ‘Jews’ (especially prior to AD 70) as to what exact books were IN and which books were OUT of the ‘list’.
Alexandrian Jews during the 100 years prior to R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (as early as 150 BCE included in their Greek Old Testament – the same one used by Philo of Alexandria - in addition to the Torah and the Psalms and the Prophets (in which Jeremiah was shorter by 13 chapters and other books like I-II Samuel were based on a DIFFERENT Hebrew text from the one used by Jews & Protestants today,
i.e. the Masoretic Text) holy books such as ‘The Wisdom of Solomon’, ‘Tobit’, ‘Judith’, ‘1-4 Maccabbees’ and the ‘Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach’ (aka Ecclesiasticus) all of which they included in their Hebrew Bible as ‘canonical’ (i.e. as books that ‘defiled the hands’).
The Chester Beatty Papyrus from c. AD 20 from Alexandria contains 8 fragments which include not only later canonical texts which fairly closely resemble the Greek Septuaginta LXX but ALSO was found in the text a piece of the Book of Henoch – which proves that the Alexandrian Jews and the earliest Christians that moved there (or Messianically minded Jews that lived in Alexandria who were converted to one of the new 'Christian' movements) held the Book of I Henoch to be 'canonical scripture' as well – and worthy of citation and commentary.
In fact the Alexandrian lists of ‘canonical books’ among the 1st century Jews is fairly similar to the canonical-type books used by the Dead Sea Scroll copyists, some of whom copied Greek Texts of both the LXX Alexandrian type as well as other LXX Greek variation texts like the non Masoretic matching Hebrew text family underlays (Vorlagen) used later by Theodotion, Symmachus and the text favoured by R. Aquila (a pupil of R. Akiba).
Is this all beginning to make sense to you yet? If not re-read my posts and let it sink in !!
I just discovered your post buried on this thread – you raise a number of points that need to be addressed – I will try to give as much background as space allows…
First your ‘late canonical ‘ list of the post R. Akiba Hebrew ‘old testament’ canon shows you are unaware of the state of thee canon during the lifetime of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef and his disciples – i.e. your OT ‘canonical list’ merely reflects the LATE list of Jewish scrolls ‘which defiled the hands’ that came into general acceptance by Jews only after AD 150, and is NOT the same list of ‘sacred’ books regarded as ‘defiling the hands’ that were used by the earliest 1st Century Jews or the earliest Christians or the the Dead Sea Scroll copyists - were still copying all their contradictory texts with wild textual abandon until AD 68 when Rome put a stop to them.
Again, was a BIG dividing line between the canonical ‘sacred’ OT texts BEFORE Jamnia and what was considered sacred AFTER Jamnia (these texts also differed between copies with hundreds of major and minor textual variants between them) in use in different places before Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in AD 70…
This is a very important point.
The peculiar Masoretic family of texts (proto-MT) that eventually became ‘standard ‘ was based on several that non Palestinian ‘foreign’ Rebbes from Babylonia (e.g. Hillel II) tried to foist on the tattered post AD 70 Judaism (without a Temple standing, Jews turned to their books – and the Babylonian Rebbes held all the cards) - thus began the post AD 90 Debate as to what Books and What Version of those Books specifically was to be regarded as sacred ‘canon’ by the Jews–
These debates lasted until after AD 150 (e.g. even such later canonical books as The Song of Songs and Esther were fiercely being debated ref: canonicity as late as AD 130)
Josephus unfortunately is of little use to you in your argument to foist a post-Jamnia canonical list onto a pre-Jamnia milieu since Josephus did not make his ‘canonicity claims’ of the ‘sacred writings of the Jews’ until after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 when most of the non-Masoretic texts were burned along with the city of Jerusalem itself and the Rebbes at Jamnia had more or less weeded out anything that they themselves did not hold as ‘defiling the hands’. Had Josephus wrote his history 50 years earlier, he would have come up with a much longer list of books.
Technically we have extant no actual canonical ‘list’ of sacred Jewish writings until the time of R. Akiba in the late 2nd century AD – all we can do is look for citations in earlier writings to see what texts they used as authoritative texts in looking for the ‘divine will’ e.g. expressed as prophecy --the same way, say, the author of Jude, uses ‘I Henoch’ as canonical ‘authoritative’ prophecy via e.g. the pesher method as prophecy to be taken as the word of ‘god’ (Jude 1:14-16);
The Dead Sea Scroll Jews also used The Books of Henoch and the Testament of Moses/Jubilees the same way, citing both books as canonically authoritative for the Qumran covenanters near Jerusaleem (see Pesher fragments 4Q 266: 8ii 2-3, 228a, 4Q 228b, 4Q 228c, 4Q 228d, 4Q 228 e, 4Q 228f 4 Q 228 g and 4Q180 as well as all the tiny fragments which were originally part of columns 10 and 16 of the CDamascus Document which cites pesher type passages from Henoch and Jubilees as authoritative ‘canonical scripture’ from which to derive both prophecy and to derive their strict halakhot (=‘the way to live righteously’) - in other words they used I Henoch and Jubilees as scripture.
Don’t forget, we are NOT dealing with a single Judaism with a single list of sacred books between two covers in the 1st century AD
Just as when scholars speak of ‘Christianities’ in the plural in the 1st to the 5th centuries AD, we must also speak of ‘Judaeisms’ in the centuries before and immediately after the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef and his disciples - that is to say, in the PLURAL. And plurality of religious outlooks means plurality of texts and text types to support their pluralities.
Each one of these different ‘Judaeisms’ [before the Jewish War wiped most of them out in AD 70] had their own list of ‘sacred books’, all of them holding the ‘Torah’ (in various versions depending on the group) as ‘defiling the hands’ i.e. canonical, but some also adding the prophets and the psalms.
The only reason we know so much about the ‘fluidity of the texts’ before the Failed Jewish War of AD 70 is that the Dead Sea Scroll copyist-priests buried a ‘time capsule’ of more than 800 sacred texts sealed up in caves, many in jars where they can be read today – in all their contradictory textual glory. A nightmare for modern ‘believers’ (which is why they were not published for a long time) but a treasure trove for scholarship.
Here are some of the Judaisms around when ‘Jesus’ lived:
The Zadokkim (‘Sadduccees’, i.e. ‘sons of Zadok’ who ran the Jerusalem cult as priests who regarded the 5 books of the TORAH ONLY as canonical ‘defiling the hands’)- they rejected the Psalms and the Prophets and the Writings as ‘canonical’.
The Samaratim (Assyrian converted Jews who broke off from the Jerusalem establishment in the 5th century BCE and moved to the area near present day Nablus, near Mount Gerazim, their holy Hill, who ALSO only regarded the Torah as ‘defiling the hands’ – i.e. they like the Zadukim did not consider the prophets to be holy canonical scripture nor the writings like the Psalms or Job etc.)
The anti-Maccabbean 167 BCE splinter group of the priestly Sadducees (see 4 Q MMT) aka ‘the Sons of Light, Followers of the Way’ etc. at Qumran (i.e the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanter-priests who claimed to be ‘the true sons of Zadok’ i.e The True Sadducees - who held overlapping Pharasaic- & Essenoid beliefs in Angels, the Resurrection of the Dead, Daemons, and a belief in the canonicity of the Torah, the Prophets & 1 Henoch and the Testament of Moses/Jubilees & The Testaments of the 12 and the Psalms (to which they had 5 extra ones of their own) as ‘defiling the hands’ – all upon which they lavished sometimes elaborate Pesherim-commentaries);
The Zealotim (murderously armed Messianic militants, one of whom is mentioned as a disciple of ‘Iesous’ who went by the name of Shimeon ha Kananiah (or Simon Zealotes, ‘Simon the Zealot’),
The ‘Ossim (Gk. Essenoi / Essenes) which existed in two versions one of them were married ‘in the camps of Israel’ scattered around the country, and the other group ‘celibate virgin males who called themselves ‘Angels undefiled by the filfth of the Female’ who remained childless who seemed to be related to (if not the same group) the Messianic Dead Sea Scroll priests; and of course the Pharasim (‘separated ones’) who taught the Torah of Moses in the Synagogues who like the Dead Sea Scroll sect, believed in Angels and the Resurrection of the Dead and believed the ‘prophets and the psalms’ all ‘defiled the hands’ (unlike the Samaratim and the Zadukkim who only held as canonical the Torah in their OWN different textual versions, by the way...)
We could also add the Greek Speaking Diaspora Jews as a separate differentiated ‘group’ (but these differed between each other according to what city they lived in and should be classified as different Judaisem-sub-groups (e.g. Philo of Alexandria’s Diaspora Alexandrian Judaism was different from the Judaiesm practiced in Corinth or Thessalonica etc.)
The Alexandrian Theapuetae (Chassidim) who seemed curiously ‘Essenoid / Dead Sea Scroll’ covenanter related – and may have been responsible for the Chester Beatty fragments who regarded 1 Henoch as ‘sacred.’.
Each of these ‘Judaisms’ had their own pre-AD70 lists and versions to use as sacred canonical scriptures—and their different lists of Old testament writings affected the later Christianities which evolved out of one group or another.
A quick example would be the Christianity practiced by the persons responsible for the Syriac Peshi tta B canon which was based on a Judaism that excluded the book of Chronicles as canonical. A similar Peshi tta Christianity (Peshi tta A) retained Chronicles as a book ‘which defiled the hands’ so, we can see that even within the same general area there were divisions of opinion among ‘Jews’ (especially prior to AD 70) as to what exact books were IN and which books were OUT of the ‘list’.
Alexandrian Jews during the 100 years prior to R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (as early as 150 BCE included in their Greek Old Testament – the same one used by Philo of Alexandria - in addition to the Torah and the Psalms and the Prophets (in which Jeremiah was shorter by 13 chapters and other books like I-II Samuel were based on a DIFFERENT Hebrew text from the one used by Jews & Protestants today,
i.e. the Masoretic Text) holy books such as ‘The Wisdom of Solomon’, ‘Tobit’, ‘Judith’, ‘1-4 Maccabbees’ and the ‘Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach’ (aka Ecclesiasticus) all of which they included in their Hebrew Bible as ‘canonical’ (i.e. as books that ‘defiled the hands’).
The Chester Beatty Papyrus from c. AD 20 from Alexandria contains 8 fragments which include not only later canonical texts which fairly closely resemble the Greek Septuaginta LXX but ALSO was found in the text a piece of the Book of Henoch – which proves that the Alexandrian Jews and the earliest Christians that moved there (or Messianically minded Jews that lived in Alexandria who were converted to one of the new 'Christian' movements) held the Book of I Henoch to be 'canonical scripture' as well – and worthy of citation and commentary.
In fact the Alexandrian lists of ‘canonical books’ among the 1st century Jews is fairly similar to the canonical-type books used by the Dead Sea Scroll copyists, some of whom copied Greek Texts of both the LXX Alexandrian type as well as other LXX Greek variation texts like the non Masoretic matching Hebrew text family underlays (Vorlagen) used later by Theodotion, Symmachus and the text favoured by R. Aquila (a pupil of R. Akiba).
Is this all beginning to make sense to you yet? If not re-read my posts and let it sink in !!
edit on 22-4-2011 by Sigismundus because: Syriac 'Pesh it ta' had to be fixed to avoid the # !
reply to post by MrXYZ
Laugh all you can Now...
Hell will be continuous flames, lasting for eternity. The song "Amazing Grace" says "When we've been there (Heaven) ten thousand years, we've no less days to sing God's praise, then when we first begun."
Since both heaven and hell are eternal, after the first 725,000 years, it won't be even 10 minutes closer to the end.
If that is funny, Get all you can...
Laugh all you can Now...
Hell will be continuous flames, lasting for eternity. The song "Amazing Grace" says "When we've been there (Heaven) ten thousand years, we've no less days to sing God's praise, then when we first begun."
Since both heaven and hell are eternal, after the first 725,000 years, it won't be even 10 minutes closer to the end.
If that is funny, Get all you can...
reply to post by daskakik
People can try to think it might be possible to escape The Creator's Judgment! But there will be no Escape!
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Revelation 20:13
People can try to think it might be possible to escape The Creator's Judgment! But there will be no Escape!
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Revelation 20:13
reply to post by Faith2011
reply to post by Faith2011
reply to post by Faith2011
reply to post by Faith2011
You've just got the whole 'fire and brimstone' thing going for you now? Seriously, four posts that refer only to hell...you're using terror tactics to win souls. I guess your religion is merely about fear of hell...I'm not saying Christianity, I'm saying your personal view of it.
Well, I'm not going to fear punishment in some eternal torment which is unverified. Anecdotes are nothing to base my view of reality on.
I'll go on doing the best I can in this world. If that's not enough for some being and my honest attempts to do what I think is right are so offensive to it that I'll be tossed into an eternal torture pit in its basement...well, I'd be screwed either way.
reply to post by Faith2011
reply to post by Faith2011
reply to post by Faith2011
You've just got the whole 'fire and brimstone' thing going for you now? Seriously, four posts that refer only to hell...you're using terror tactics to win souls. I guess your religion is merely about fear of hell...I'm not saying Christianity, I'm saying your personal view of it.
Well, I'm not going to fear punishment in some eternal torment which is unverified. Anecdotes are nothing to base my view of reality on.
I'll go on doing the best I can in this world. If that's not enough for some being and my honest attempts to do what I think is right are so offensive to it that I'll be tossed into an eternal torture pit in its basement...well, I'd be screwed either way.
reply to post by Faith2011
Well maybe but if he did the same type of job getting the official rules out and the details about the prizes as he did about his existence then maybe your information is inaccurate. Maybe there is no fire and brimstone maybe it's just a relocation test. Do you like the warm sunny tropics or the cool mountain breeze. Or it could all just be a learning experience no matter what.
I like that idea. Not good or bad but just lived. Once you have gone through this life in any way imaginable then you could appreciate the next level a bit better. Like making your kids get a summer job. It's not to punish them but instead so that they can appreciate what it takes to earn a buck.
Well maybe but if he did the same type of job getting the official rules out and the details about the prizes as he did about his existence then maybe your information is inaccurate. Maybe there is no fire and brimstone maybe it's just a relocation test. Do you like the warm sunny tropics or the cool mountain breeze. Or it could all just be a learning experience no matter what.
I like that idea. Not good or bad but just lived. Once you have gone through this life in any way imaginable then you could appreciate the next level a bit better. Like making your kids get a summer job. It's not to punish them but instead so that they can appreciate what it takes to earn a buck.
are you serious? if i existed thousands of years ago and someone told me to write about how we all exist and how god plays a role in it all, i'd in
all sincerity start with, "in the beginning, god created.."
in that time, they didn't have the knowledge to comprehend the possibility that the universe is infinite.
in that time, they didn't have the knowledge to comprehend the possibility that the universe is infinite.
no god who is deemed loving would even for a split second consider the thought of conceiving hell.
god would know that we are placed on a planet full of unfairness and eternal pain. in a realm such as this sin is inevitable, praying to jesus doesn't change a thing, changing for YOURSELF, and not for the sake of a higher entity is what matters. all of you who preach adamantly about the fear of hell do so to save yourselves from these flames you believe in.
a real god wouldn't place people in a living hell, then for not achieving righteousness within it, condemn that person to a hell after his time on this plane, where hell is prevalent.
a god who embodies love would not create hell, you are blinded by fear, you are not righteous, you are not holy, you preach fear, you embody fear, your life will succumb to fear and you will die in fear.
if you want to be in heaven with a god who tortures the lives of countless individuals, go for it.
the idea of heaven is absolutely ludicrous. eternal bliss is worthless, without pain and suffering to mirror such a state, eternal bliss would be the true hell.
leave me in the place where one suffers, to live is to suffer, to appreciate goodness is to appreciate pain. take away the evils of the world and there is no such thing as good, just indifference
god would know that we are placed on a planet full of unfairness and eternal pain. in a realm such as this sin is inevitable, praying to jesus doesn't change a thing, changing for YOURSELF, and not for the sake of a higher entity is what matters. all of you who preach adamantly about the fear of hell do so to save yourselves from these flames you believe in.
a real god wouldn't place people in a living hell, then for not achieving righteousness within it, condemn that person to a hell after his time on this plane, where hell is prevalent.
a god who embodies love would not create hell, you are blinded by fear, you are not righteous, you are not holy, you preach fear, you embody fear, your life will succumb to fear and you will die in fear.
if you want to be in heaven with a god who tortures the lives of countless individuals, go for it.
the idea of heaven is absolutely ludicrous. eternal bliss is worthless, without pain and suffering to mirror such a state, eternal bliss would be the true hell.
leave me in the place where one suffers, to live is to suffer, to appreciate goodness is to appreciate pain. take away the evils of the world and there is no such thing as good, just indifference
ATTENTION!!!
The topic of this thread is
Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality!
....not hell or eternal damnation.
Further off topic posts will be removed.
reply to post by Sigismundus
OK – taking this back to topic. Let's keep it simple shall we?
I'm well aware of your vast knowledge of “historical stuff” but with this vast knowledge will you please at least address my question to you (a while back)? It shouldn't be hard - I hope.
Q--> Please reveal to me where Job or it's writer got the facts that the earth is hanging upon nothing (according to their time line and understanding).
Or to be precise: “Fact 3) “He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.
Here's the verse according to different versions:
NKJV - Job 26:7 - He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
GNT – Job 26:7 God stretched out the northern sky and hung the earth in empty space. (aka - TEV)
If the author of the Bible copied this fact from pagan ideas please show me where they got it.
Your response will have great implications on your vast data dumping.
But like what I said in the OP:
Job got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by the Creator of the heavens and earth himself - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahuwah). To which he says:
“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.
Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it - because it's the Reality!
I await your reply.
Ty
edmc2
OK – taking this back to topic. Let's keep it simple shall we?
I'm well aware of your vast knowledge of “historical stuff” but with this vast knowledge will you please at least address my question to you (a while back)? It shouldn't be hard - I hope.
Q--> Please reveal to me where Job or it's writer got the facts that the earth is hanging upon nothing (according to their time line and understanding).
Or to be precise: “Fact 3) “He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.
Here's the verse according to different versions:
NKJV - Job 26:7 - He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
GNT – Job 26:7 God stretched out the northern sky and hung the earth in empty space. (aka - TEV)
If the author of the Bible copied this fact from pagan ideas please show me where they got it.
Your response will have great implications on your vast data dumping.
But like what I said in the OP:
Job got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by the Creator of the heavens and earth himself - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahuwah). To which he says:
“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.
Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it - because it's the Reality!
I await your reply.
Ty
edmc2
edit on 22-4-2011 by edmc^2 because: Good News Tranlation (GNT - TEV) bible/data dump
Originally posted by Faith2011
reply to post by MrXYZ
Laugh all you can Now...
Hell will be continuous flames, lasting for eternity. The song "Amazing Grace" says "When we've been there (Heaven) ten thousand years, we've no less days to sing God's praise, then when we first begun."
Since both heaven and hell are eternal, after the first 725,000 years, it won't be even 10 minutes closer to the end.
If that is funny, Get all you can...
Ah the old "you're gonna burn in hell" fear mongering tactic...hilarious
The only irrational fear I have is heights, just fyi. So good luck scaring me with something that's not backed up by evidence. You seem very concerned about dying, just relax dude, it's something that will happen eventually. My heart stopped a few times, and I don't run around like a crazy headless chicken telling people to believe in MY god or else they burn in hell...it makes you look very silly given you fail at backing up any of your claims
reply to post by daskakik
You said:
OK - let's break it down to get a clearer view.
The Team
Here's the process:
The Source of the information.
btw – do you have any idea what is involved in DNA sequencing?
The Decoding.
The Target Specimen
The Result
Bottom line – they did not Create a new life from non-living material but a Created a “synthetic cell” from a pre-existing life. Proving once again the undeniable fact that:
Of Jehovah God/Yahweh (YHWH), it is written: “With you is the source of life.”—Ps. 36:9.
Here's a riddle for you.
If it takes a team of intelligent men/women to create and program a “synthetic cell/life”, what would it take to create a living cell, let alone a human?
Next you said:
Will you believe then IF I say “CREATION IS A FACT – THE REALITY!”? Be honest please – are going to believe?
As for the EVIDENCE of this FACT! I present to you Team Venter – who created an “artificial cell/life” from a pre-existing life. Need more evidence to convince you?
Next you said:
remember this saying? That's your clue.
“A chain is only as strong as its weakest link”.
So far none of the facts I presented in the OP were proven wrong.
Because truth is truth. But if I make a mistake then I will readily admit to it – but the fact still remains that the Word OF God - the Bible is 100% correct when it comes to proving Creation. Why? - because it is the Reality! And that's not an opinion but a fact.
Here let me use Today's English Version aka Good News Translation:
“Job 26:7 God stretched out the northern sky and hung the earth in empty space.”
Of course to us living the in modern world, we know that the “empty space” is actually governed technically speaking by an invisible force we call “gravity”. Point is if an “invisible force – gravity” is INVISIBLE – to the naked eye – then the earth is hanging upon “nothing”.
Of course there are opinions like yours that are not back up by facts – but that's ok because that's what opinion is. But if an opinion is backed up by evidence as facts then it's no longer just an opinion.
Case in point:
In my opinion the Bible is factually accurate when it says “the earth is hanging on an “empty space, upon “nothing”. And that's a fact!
Not brushing it off, if I did then I will not respond the vast data dump. But as you can see – it's hard to figure out where to start because the information provided are all over the place. A mishmash of stuff. We'll see though if I get a response to my Q.
Faith if it's not back up by solid evidence - then it becomes blind faith. But one that is founded on truth and facts – like the unchanging Word Of God IS not just faith but THE Reality.
Note how the Bible defines true faith:
“Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Heb. 11:1)
So as you can see it's an assured expectation that has a backing. In other words it conveys the idea that this expectation is guaranteed, that there will be a future possession.
Like the the earth – I have faith that the earth were remain forever because of a promise by it's Creator – sure as the sun rising in the morning.
So back to my simple riddle to you:
If it takes a team of intelligent men/women to create and program a “synthetic cell/life”, what would it take to create a living cell, let alone a human?
Ty,
edmc2
You said:
Actually they created the DNA in a test tube not just manipulated it.
OK - let's break it down to get a clearer view.
The Team
Dr Craig Venter, a multi-millionaire pioneer in genetics, and his team have managed to make a completely new “synthetic” life form from a mix of chemicals.
Here's the process:
The Source of the information.
First they sequenced the genetic code of Mycoplasma genitalium, the world’s smallest bacteria that lives in cattle and goats, and stored the information on a computer.
btw – do you have any idea what is involved in DNA sequencing?
The Decoding.
Then they used the computer code to artificially reproduce the DNA in the laboratory, slightly modifying it with a “watermark” so it was distinguishable from the original natural one.
The Target Specimen
Finally they developed a technique of stripping bacteria cells of all original DNA and substituting it with the new artificial code.
The Result
The resulting “synthetic cell” was then “rebooted” and it started to replicate. The ability to reproduce or replicate is considered the basic definition of life.
Dr Venter compared his work with the building of a computer. Making the artificial DNA was the equivalent of creating the software for the operating system. Transferring it to a cell was like loading it into the hardware and running the programme.
Bottom line – they did not Create a new life from non-living material but a Created a “synthetic cell” from a pre-existing life. Proving once again the undeniable fact that:
“Fact 7) “life comes only from life.”
Of Jehovah God/Yahweh (YHWH), it is written: “With you is the source of life.”—Ps. 36:9.
Here's a riddle for you.
If it takes a team of intelligent men/women to create and program a “synthetic cell/life”, what would it take to create a living cell, let alone a human?
Next you said:
The bible is not proven fact. The title says it all "why you believe the bible to be factual". That's your opinion and not fact.
Will you believe then IF I say “CREATION IS A FACT – THE REALITY!”? Be honest please – are going to believe?
As for the EVIDENCE of this FACT! I present to you Team Venter – who created an “artificial cell/life” from a pre-existing life. Need more evidence to convince you?
Next you said:
Did the universe have a beggining? Yes but then does this make all the other creation myths correct.
remember this saying? That's your clue.
“A chain is only as strong as its weakest link”.
So far none of the facts I presented in the OP were proven wrong.
If not why does it make yours correct?
Because truth is truth. But if I make a mistake then I will readily admit to it – but the fact still remains that the Word OF God - the Bible is 100% correct when it comes to proving Creation. Why? - because it is the Reality! And that's not an opinion but a fact.
Is the earth hanging on nothing? No it's being held by gravity. Thought this had been established.
Here let me use Today's English Version aka Good News Translation:
“Job 26:7 God stretched out the northern sky and hung the earth in empty space.”
Of course to us living the in modern world, we know that the “empty space” is actually governed technically speaking by an invisible force we call “gravity”. Point is if an “invisible force – gravity” is INVISIBLE – to the naked eye – then the earth is hanging upon “nothing”.
You keep posting opinions like they are facts.
Of course there are opinions like yours that are not back up by facts – but that's ok because that's what opinion is. But if an opinion is backed up by evidence as facts then it's no longer just an opinion.
Case in point:
In my opinion the Bible is factually accurate when it says “the earth is hanging on an “empty space, upon “nothing”. And that's a fact!
Your even brushing aside all the good information that Sigismundus is offering and even say:
Not brushing it off, if I did then I will not respond the vast data dump. But as you can see – it's hard to figure out where to start because the information provided are all over the place. A mishmash of stuff. We'll see though if I get a response to my Q.
So I guess facts be damned your faith trumps all. That's fine but all many are doing is pointing out that it is faith and not fact. Nothing wrong with it but accept it for what it is
Faith if it's not back up by solid evidence - then it becomes blind faith. But one that is founded on truth and facts – like the unchanging Word Of God IS not just faith but THE Reality.
Note how the Bible defines true faith:
“Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Heb. 11:1)
So as you can see it's an assured expectation that has a backing. In other words it conveys the idea that this expectation is guaranteed, that there will be a future possession.
Like the the earth – I have faith that the earth were remain forever because of a promise by it's Creator – sure as the sun rising in the morning.
So back to my simple riddle to you:
If it takes a team of intelligent men/women to create and program a “synthetic cell/life”, what would it take to create a living cell, let alone a human?
Ty,
edmc2
Hi edmc –
Your ‘quotation’ is extracted from a longer section taken from the very hard to translate Elamite paleoHebrew POETICAL section of the ‘Elamite Job’ Poem beginning in chapter 3 and extending to the end (except for the final paragraph).
Here are some points to consider before we get started in on the tough-linguistics of the Elamite paleo-Heb.
l. Job is a literary collaboration – and NOT a literary unity by the same author – it was clearly written in (2) distinct Hebrew writing styles from (2) distinct periods of Israelitish history, viz. the later PROSE sections (in Persian Period Hebrew c. 350 BCE) were ADDED to an older Elamite paleoHebrew Poem (c. 680 BCE); the PROSE sections have a different Theology (Satan, YHWH at the head of a Persian Style Court etc.) than the POETICAL sections (beginning in chapters 3 and going on to the very end except the very last PROSE paragraph) where YHWH is not mentioned nor Satan nor YHWH’s court etc. but rather ELOAH is the god who is being addressed and who swoops down in a Whirlwind to chastise Job for being so bold as to ask the Most High why he should suffer.
Because ‘Job’ it is a ‘literary hotchpotch’, in two parts, it is theoretically possible to remove the PROSE sections of the book out and read only the POEM by itself– and by doing so, you can see (Shock and Awe!) the ‘point’ of the whole story is entirely different.
If you read the story as one piece (instead of the 2 pieces it actually is in) i.e. with the later prose addition sections in, Job suffers because YHWH allows Satan to ‘test his faith’;
If you read the Poem of Job with the later prose sections (chapters 1,2 ) removed, and consider ONLY the POEM sections (beginning in chapter 3), as it states in the whirlwind scene, the ‘point’ of the story is much different: ELOAH (not Yahweh, and not Satan and not the heavenly council, which do not exist in the poem) tells Job off in no uncertain terms, in effect:
‘You piece of clay, how DARE you question the edicts of the Most High? Were you there when I stretched out the heavens like a Tent? Tell me how I did it then, if you’re so darned smart ! I cause to suffer whom I cause to suffer, because I say so, that’s why, so you will Just Have to Eat It !’
ELOAH then continues to rant and rave about how HE ( or, SHE since ‘Eloah’ is technically grammatically feminine…) created the world man cannot even begin to speak to ELOAH as an equal…after which Job eventually caves in and tells ELOAH, in effect
‘Geez, ELOAH ! Sorry I spoke ! I repent in dust and ashes for even bringing up the subject !’ i.e. there is no reason given in the POEM itself for Job’s suffering – just a screaming ELOAH from Whirlwind telling him not to ask such questions in the first place.
2. The poetical sections (i.e. the meat of the book beginning in chapter 3) of Job was originally adapted from non Jewish (‘ pagan’) wisdom literature sources and poses the age old question:
Why Does an Innocent Man Suffer in this Life when he has done nothing Wrong? –which still does not have a definitive answer even to-day.
To take an example from the middle part of last century, it’s sort of like asking “Why did ‘the god of the Jews’ allow the near extermination of European Jews at the hands of the Nazis ? What evil did they all do to deserve being gassed in the camps?” to which there is no real satisfactory answer. The ‘god of the Jews’ did not swoop down on a broom to save them at the last moment ‘and destroy the gentiles’ as their ‘holy books’ said he would.
Instead he did nothing. So modern-day Jews are still asking the same question as the Elamite Poem of Job did way back in the 7th century BCE.
Hence the reason why there are so many ‘Jewish Athiests’ to-day. They want an answer and unfortunately for many of them at least, there is none forthcoming.
3. The Elamite Hebrew Poem of Job (beginning in chapter 3) was set into difficult un-pointed (with no vowels) paleo- Hebrew some time during the 1st Exile of the northern Israelitish Tribelets (the ’10 lost tribes’) into the area around ancient Elam – where the Assyrians deported them – it is very odd paleo-Hebrew poetry with an Elamite accent, and very hard to translate into modern English.
Naturally when a group of Israelitish priestly scribes are exposed to PAGAN literature and the fresh discourse of a new way of life (albeit in Exile), they begin to think differently –
The whole POEM of Elamite Job is a quasi-Jewish answer to why the innocent suffer (and the priests dragged off into Exile in Assyria must have thought about that a lot, since they did not believe that they deserved to be taken away from their homeland into a place quite far away (anyone in the northern tribelets who could read/write work in metals etc. were the first to go into Exile BCE 721-BCE 701 into the Assyrian territories, since these were the class of persons that could foster a counter revolution or rebellion back home – and the Assyrrians always could use new scribes for their Administration (literacy in the 8th century BCE was less than 10%)
To add insult to injury the Assyrians in turn took several thousand of their own Assyrian citizens and trans-planted them in the former northern kingdom to be ‘good citizens of the state’ who would obey their Assyrian countrymen in Eretz Yisro’el)
3. Because the POEM is so pre-Exilic (pre 587 BCE and very pre Ezra) the post Exilic clan god of Yisro’el (‘YHWH’ or Yahweh) is not found in the text itself - instead the author chooses to use the earlier and weird form of the name ELOAH (a feminine singular of ELOHIM) for the divine name—the only book in the ‘canon of the Jews’ which does so.
Oh very weird.
And because Job is a POEM, it is difficult to be exact about exact meanings (especially in a preExilic text without vowels) – scholars have to dig around to see just what is being said
Here is the larger CONTEXT of your quote e.g. in thee Elamite paleoHebrew Poetical section of Job 26 4-13 , which in modern American English could be brought into something like:
“To whom do you think you are speaking?
Where is all that Wind coming out of your Mouth coming from ?
Can’t you see how the Giants (haRefayim) are still twisting & turning in anguish
under the Flood-Waters along with their Cohorts ? –
Or that She’ol is stark naked before the faces of ELOAH,
that to him (or her !) even Abba Do’qon (‘the father of Destruction’) has no clothes on ? –
Behold, how ELOAH has stretched out the North over a Starry-Desolation,
yea, he (she) lays down the Earth there upon the Waters with no additional support !
Yea, no matter how thick the Waters are pressed into the clouds
yet they are not torn by the sheer weight of them !
Lo, he holds back the face of his throne
and see how he spreads out his cloud covering it –
Yea he has set eternal boundaries for the Waters,
which will remain forever until Night and Day cease to exist !
How the very Pillars of Heaven shake and tremble at his Reproof…&tc.
Yea, it was his right hand that formed the Crooked Serpent… &tc.
Doesn’t sound to scientific to me to speak of the ‘Pillars of Heaven shaking’ Sounds to me more like ancient Poetry--which is what it is.
The Writer of Job is NOT giving post-Scientific moderns a cosmology lesson – he/she is writing a poem to address the Mystery of the world we live in – the cosmos is just as unfathomable to the writer(s) as is the problem of why innocent people suffer for no apparent reason – it’s all unfathomable, according to the writer, anyway.
Here is some preliminary linguistic background to get started - the discussion will continue next week when there is more time to go into this :
First, the term ‘North’ is sometimes used to represent the Reqia’k or firmament, see Is. 14:13 e.g. "He stretches out the dome (firmament) over the waters."
See Isaiah 14:13 "You (King of xxx e.g. Babylon) were set to climb up to heaven and place your throne above the highest stars - you really thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the North where all the gods are wont to assemble, didn;t you?"
The paleo-Heb. word for ‘North’ was believed to be the highest part of the earth (Isa 14:13) - פון and signifies the northern sky by day in contrast with the brighter rainless south; see the Old Persian apâkhtara, the name ‘north’ denotes the "starless" region, Greek ζόφος, the north-west, from the root skap, σκεπᾶν, σκεπανός (see Curtius, Griech. Etymologie, ii. 274), aquilo, the north wind, as that which brings black clouds with it.)
The "north" was also sometimes used in Heb. as a synonym for the "Mountain in the heavens where the gods are wont to assemble."
Some try to translate the passage "He hangeth the earth upon nothing" which reflects a preScientific Hebrew belief that a flat earth, although supported by ‘pillars’ which shake, did not rest on the back of an Atlas character or a Tortoise-shell (notice how the Hindu’s ‘correctly’ name the shape of our Galaxy when viewed from the side as ‘tortoise shell shaped’ with the bulge in the middle ! Doesn’t make it ‘inspired’, does it?) or even an elephant as Israel’s ‘pagan’ neighbors sometimes described.
NB: the writer of the poem of Job still uses the concept of ‘Pillars’ to support the heavens : otherwise, he would hardly have in the same context, "The pillars of the heavens tremble) and are stunned at his thunderous rebuke," (26:11).
Hebrews and Canannaites and others in the Levant believed that the gods (or any given clan god e.g. Ba’al or Hadad etal.) spoke in thunderclaps (the word QOL in Hebrew can mean ‘thunder’, ‘sound’ or ‘voice’ depending on context…)
Phrases such as
"He sits enthroned in the Dome which is set above earth....
He stretches out the heavens like a veil,
Yea, he spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
all which reveal a pre-Scientific Weltanschauung and Cosmology-
The Hebrews were as preScientific as their new neighbours the Elamites - they thought the earth was flat surrounded by a solid dome (Reqia’k taken over into Greek is STEREOS – meaning ‘as a solid one piece object’, from which we get words in modern English e.g. StereoType – description of a group as ‘a single entity acting the same always’ etc.)
Don’t forget we are dealing with Elamite Hebrew Poetry – which was not meant to be scientific in its outlook – it is a different GENRE altogether !
Your ‘quotation’ is extracted from a longer section taken from the very hard to translate Elamite paleoHebrew POETICAL section of the ‘Elamite Job’ Poem beginning in chapter 3 and extending to the end (except for the final paragraph).
Here are some points to consider before we get started in on the tough-linguistics of the Elamite paleo-Heb.
l. Job is a literary collaboration – and NOT a literary unity by the same author – it was clearly written in (2) distinct Hebrew writing styles from (2) distinct periods of Israelitish history, viz. the later PROSE sections (in Persian Period Hebrew c. 350 BCE) were ADDED to an older Elamite paleoHebrew Poem (c. 680 BCE); the PROSE sections have a different Theology (Satan, YHWH at the head of a Persian Style Court etc.) than the POETICAL sections (beginning in chapters 3 and going on to the very end except the very last PROSE paragraph) where YHWH is not mentioned nor Satan nor YHWH’s court etc. but rather ELOAH is the god who is being addressed and who swoops down in a Whirlwind to chastise Job for being so bold as to ask the Most High why he should suffer.
Because ‘Job’ it is a ‘literary hotchpotch’, in two parts, it is theoretically possible to remove the PROSE sections of the book out and read only the POEM by itself– and by doing so, you can see (Shock and Awe!) the ‘point’ of the whole story is entirely different.
If you read the story as one piece (instead of the 2 pieces it actually is in) i.e. with the later prose addition sections in, Job suffers because YHWH allows Satan to ‘test his faith’;
If you read the Poem of Job with the later prose sections (chapters 1,2 ) removed, and consider ONLY the POEM sections (beginning in chapter 3), as it states in the whirlwind scene, the ‘point’ of the story is much different: ELOAH (not Yahweh, and not Satan and not the heavenly council, which do not exist in the poem) tells Job off in no uncertain terms, in effect:
‘You piece of clay, how DARE you question the edicts of the Most High? Were you there when I stretched out the heavens like a Tent? Tell me how I did it then, if you’re so darned smart ! I cause to suffer whom I cause to suffer, because I say so, that’s why, so you will Just Have to Eat It !’
ELOAH then continues to rant and rave about how HE ( or, SHE since ‘Eloah’ is technically grammatically feminine…) created the world man cannot even begin to speak to ELOAH as an equal…after which Job eventually caves in and tells ELOAH, in effect
‘Geez, ELOAH ! Sorry I spoke ! I repent in dust and ashes for even bringing up the subject !’ i.e. there is no reason given in the POEM itself for Job’s suffering – just a screaming ELOAH from Whirlwind telling him not to ask such questions in the first place.
2. The poetical sections (i.e. the meat of the book beginning in chapter 3) of Job was originally adapted from non Jewish (‘ pagan’) wisdom literature sources and poses the age old question:
Why Does an Innocent Man Suffer in this Life when he has done nothing Wrong? –which still does not have a definitive answer even to-day.
To take an example from the middle part of last century, it’s sort of like asking “Why did ‘the god of the Jews’ allow the near extermination of European Jews at the hands of the Nazis ? What evil did they all do to deserve being gassed in the camps?” to which there is no real satisfactory answer. The ‘god of the Jews’ did not swoop down on a broom to save them at the last moment ‘and destroy the gentiles’ as their ‘holy books’ said he would.
Instead he did nothing. So modern-day Jews are still asking the same question as the Elamite Poem of Job did way back in the 7th century BCE.
Hence the reason why there are so many ‘Jewish Athiests’ to-day. They want an answer and unfortunately for many of them at least, there is none forthcoming.
3. The Elamite Hebrew Poem of Job (beginning in chapter 3) was set into difficult un-pointed (with no vowels) paleo- Hebrew some time during the 1st Exile of the northern Israelitish Tribelets (the ’10 lost tribes’) into the area around ancient Elam – where the Assyrians deported them – it is very odd paleo-Hebrew poetry with an Elamite accent, and very hard to translate into modern English.
Naturally when a group of Israelitish priestly scribes are exposed to PAGAN literature and the fresh discourse of a new way of life (albeit in Exile), they begin to think differently –
The whole POEM of Elamite Job is a quasi-Jewish answer to why the innocent suffer (and the priests dragged off into Exile in Assyria must have thought about that a lot, since they did not believe that they deserved to be taken away from their homeland into a place quite far away (anyone in the northern tribelets who could read/write work in metals etc. were the first to go into Exile BCE 721-BCE 701 into the Assyrian territories, since these were the class of persons that could foster a counter revolution or rebellion back home – and the Assyrrians always could use new scribes for their Administration (literacy in the 8th century BCE was less than 10%)
To add insult to injury the Assyrians in turn took several thousand of their own Assyrian citizens and trans-planted them in the former northern kingdom to be ‘good citizens of the state’ who would obey their Assyrian countrymen in Eretz Yisro’el)
3. Because the POEM is so pre-Exilic (pre 587 BCE and very pre Ezra) the post Exilic clan god of Yisro’el (‘YHWH’ or Yahweh) is not found in the text itself - instead the author chooses to use the earlier and weird form of the name ELOAH (a feminine singular of ELOHIM) for the divine name—the only book in the ‘canon of the Jews’ which does so.
Oh very weird.
And because Job is a POEM, it is difficult to be exact about exact meanings (especially in a preExilic text without vowels) – scholars have to dig around to see just what is being said
Here is the larger CONTEXT of your quote e.g. in thee Elamite paleoHebrew Poetical section of Job 26 4-13 , which in modern American English could be brought into something like:
“To whom do you think you are speaking?
Where is all that Wind coming out of your Mouth coming from ?
Can’t you see how the Giants (haRefayim) are still twisting & turning in anguish
under the Flood-Waters along with their Cohorts ? –
Or that She’ol is stark naked before the faces of ELOAH,
that to him (or her !) even Abba Do’qon (‘the father of Destruction’) has no clothes on ? –
Behold, how ELOAH has stretched out the North over a Starry-Desolation,
yea, he (she) lays down the Earth there upon the Waters with no additional support !
Yea, no matter how thick the Waters are pressed into the clouds
yet they are not torn by the sheer weight of them !
Lo, he holds back the face of his throne
and see how he spreads out his cloud covering it –
Yea he has set eternal boundaries for the Waters,
which will remain forever until Night and Day cease to exist !
How the very Pillars of Heaven shake and tremble at his Reproof…&tc.
Yea, it was his right hand that formed the Crooked Serpent… &tc.
Doesn’t sound to scientific to me to speak of the ‘Pillars of Heaven shaking’ Sounds to me more like ancient Poetry--which is what it is.
The Writer of Job is NOT giving post-Scientific moderns a cosmology lesson – he/she is writing a poem to address the Mystery of the world we live in – the cosmos is just as unfathomable to the writer(s) as is the problem of why innocent people suffer for no apparent reason – it’s all unfathomable, according to the writer, anyway.
Here is some preliminary linguistic background to get started - the discussion will continue next week when there is more time to go into this :
First, the term ‘North’ is sometimes used to represent the Reqia’k or firmament, see Is. 14:13 e.g. "He stretches out the dome (firmament) over the waters."
See Isaiah 14:13 "You (King of xxx e.g. Babylon) were set to climb up to heaven and place your throne above the highest stars - you really thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the North where all the gods are wont to assemble, didn;t you?"
The paleo-Heb. word for ‘North’ was believed to be the highest part of the earth (Isa 14:13) - פון and signifies the northern sky by day in contrast with the brighter rainless south; see the Old Persian apâkhtara, the name ‘north’ denotes the "starless" region, Greek ζόφος, the north-west, from the root skap, σκεπᾶν, σκεπανός (see Curtius, Griech. Etymologie, ii. 274), aquilo, the north wind, as that which brings black clouds with it.)
The "north" was also sometimes used in Heb. as a synonym for the "Mountain in the heavens where the gods are wont to assemble."
Some try to translate the passage "He hangeth the earth upon nothing" which reflects a preScientific Hebrew belief that a flat earth, although supported by ‘pillars’ which shake, did not rest on the back of an Atlas character or a Tortoise-shell (notice how the Hindu’s ‘correctly’ name the shape of our Galaxy when viewed from the side as ‘tortoise shell shaped’ with the bulge in the middle ! Doesn’t make it ‘inspired’, does it?) or even an elephant as Israel’s ‘pagan’ neighbors sometimes described.
NB: the writer of the poem of Job still uses the concept of ‘Pillars’ to support the heavens : otherwise, he would hardly have in the same context, "The pillars of the heavens tremble) and are stunned at his thunderous rebuke," (26:11).
Hebrews and Canannaites and others in the Levant believed that the gods (or any given clan god e.g. Ba’al or Hadad etal.) spoke in thunderclaps (the word QOL in Hebrew can mean ‘thunder’, ‘sound’ or ‘voice’ depending on context…)
Phrases such as
"He sits enthroned in the Dome which is set above earth....
He stretches out the heavens like a veil,
Yea, he spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
all which reveal a pre-Scientific Weltanschauung and Cosmology-
The Hebrews were as preScientific as their new neighbours the Elamites - they thought the earth was flat surrounded by a solid dome (Reqia’k taken over into Greek is STEREOS – meaning ‘as a solid one piece object’, from which we get words in modern English e.g. StereoType – description of a group as ‘a single entity acting the same always’ etc.)
Don’t forget we are dealing with Elamite Hebrew Poetry – which was not meant to be scientific in its outlook – it is a different GENRE altogether !
Originally posted by edmc^2
“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.
Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it - because it's the Reality!
I await your reply.
Ty
edmc2
The Earth is orbiting our star, the Sun, not hanging upon nothing. If Job had access to cosmic information that you mentioned, why wouldn't he have been able to actually explain gravitation and orbital mechanics instead of some vague rhetoric?
reply to post by DisappearCompletely
But then the bible's claims wouldn't "fit"...so clearly that's not what he meant
Of course the "nothing" part is nonsense
But then the bible's claims wouldn't "fit"...so clearly that's not what he meant
Of course the "nothing" part is nonsense
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Mainstream News: 12 hours ago, 10 flags -
Cats Used as Live Bait to Train Ferocious Pitbulls in Illegal NYC Dogfighting
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 16 hours ago, 8 flags -
Nearly 70% Of Americans Want Talks To End War In Ukraine
Political Issues: 13 hours ago, 4 flags -
Sunak spinning the sickness figures
Other Current Events: 13 hours ago, 4 flags -
Electrical tricks for saving money
Education and Media: 11 hours ago, 4 flags -
Late Night with the Devil - a really good unusual modern horror film.
Movies: 15 hours ago, 2 flags -
Any one suspicious of fever promotions events, major investor Goldman Sachs card only.
The Gray Area: 3 hours ago, 2 flags -
University of Texas Instantly Shuts Down Anti Israel Protests
Education and Media: 1 hours ago, 1 flags -
God's Righteousness is Greater than Our Wrath
Religion, Faith, And Theology: 7 hours ago, 0 flags
active topics
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Sunak spinning the sickness figures
Other Current Events • 13 • : Xtrozero -
Any one suspicious of fever promotions events, major investor Goldman Sachs card only.
The Gray Area • 7 • : seekshelter -
Nearly 70% Of Americans Want Talks To End War In Ukraine
Political Issues • 34 • : crayzeed -
Hate makes for strange bedfellows
US Political Madness • 42 • : network dude -
University of Texas Instantly Shuts Down Anti Israel Protests
Education and Media • 2 • : pianopraze -
-@TH3WH17ERABB17- -Q- ---TIME TO SHOW THE WORLD--- -Part- --44--
Dissecting Disinformation • 663 • : MetalThunder -
Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 3
World War Three • 5731 • : Freeborn -
President BIDEN Vows to Make Americans Pay More Federal Taxes in 2025 - Political Suicide.
2024 Elections • 137 • : CriticalStinker -
I think this life means something.
Philosophy and Metaphysics • 59 • : seekshelter -
Late Night with the Devil - a really good unusual modern horror film.
Movies • 5 • : chiefsmom